Good stuff. The research is both interesting and frustrating. And often biased. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. We know mainstream medicine, driven by Big Pharma, will be anti testosterone.
Where does one draw the line regarding risk? Like the 92 y/o guy smoking two packs a day vs. the 49 y/o with lung cancer. I suppose if the odds are one in a million, it does not really matter if you are the one.
My question would be regarding physiological dosing and/or levels. In the US, testosterone levels are down 22% over the last three decades. Fertility is down as well. It’s likely worse if we went back sixty years. The Quest range was 350-1100ng/dL. Now it is 250-1100. Does that mean more men are now “normal”?
What about trough levels? We know they are well above range one day post injection. Is it OK as long as they hit within range at trough?
Throwing this together in the work truck while my partner drives so bare with me on the typos…
I really appreciate you guys helping me with my issues here but it’s starting to turn into a pissing match with the guys who think it’s OK to run higher levels of testosterone in what they call testosterone replacement therapy. And the guys who think that higher levels of testosterone will not lead to issues down the road. I’m not here to debate these findings. I know from my personal experience that even 200mg a week is way too much for me. I know I have only been on trt for what. 13 weeks now? But I’ve experienced high estrogen related side effects, heart palpations, fatigue, sore and sensitive nipples, a congestion in my chest and a persistent cough. I now have elevated RBC and hemoglobin. The sore nipples started in like week 3. The cough was at around week 8. I still have the cough. I do not smoke. My estrogen was making my libido shitty too. I would get rock hard and then get this half erection thing that had lower sensitivity. So I’m not here to debate the use of high testosterone for TrT by any means. Maybe if I was injecting twice a week from the get go it would be better? But the last 4 seeks or so I do 100mg twice a week and while I felt better and my niple sensitivity went away with use of the Dim supplement. I still didn’t feel right. You guys have the genetics to be able to stay at 1900 test and function properly. Great. I don’t. My genetics suck and I’ve accepted that. This is the first time in my life I am confident enough to know I can get through having sex without losing my erection or just running out of gas half way through. I don’t need naps anymore throughout the day and I am confident for the first time in what feels like forever. I met a smoking hot woman who I fuck like a porn star now that begs for me. I thank you guys who have we t out of your way and linked legitimate proof on they’re findings as well as actually personal experience. So let’s not forget the people here like myself who actually want to be on trt so they can finally have a normal life and maintain a relationship without feeling like a emotional bitch or not confident enough to strive for more. I lived like this for 25 years, and i can’t believe I even made it to where I am now without giving up along the way. This therapy has been a godsend now after lowering my dosage. While I started off wrong taking 200mg every 2 weeks which made me feel like I was a teenager on an emotional rollercoaster fighting sensitive nipples, and estrogen related side effects along the way. I now feel like I am finally getting on track mentally as well as physically. I’m waking up with erections that I could jack my car up with.
To anyone here in this post that wants to feed people information that 200mg+ of testosterone a week is trt you have no God dam idea of what trt is and I kindly ask you to leave and not share your opinions with fellow members who legitimately need help, or do not have the genetics to be able to handle higher amounts of testosterone in they’re bodies…
I do appreciate all of your information if you are here to help but please remember I am here for help and I hope that I can come back here with further questions along my path in trt. I know this is a life long decision now and my goal is to be able to maintain a stable, and functional testosterone level that won’t slowly bring me to having future issues. Maybe 200mg+ a week of testosterone can be maintained for x amount of time before there is permanent damage? I’m sure there is a post that is dedicated to this. I’m not here to debate it. I’d like to keep my levels as high as I can feel as good as I can feel. If that’s 400 great. If that’s 800 even better? I’m starting to find that it’s not about the numbers unless you are in a steroid cycle. Let me emphasize the word cycle. That’s high testosterone for up to 12 weeks max in some cases from my research. I have a friend who just got his levels tested because he’s getting older and was thinking about getting on trt for more gains in the gym. He went in after hearing I made the decision to start trt. He’s 46 years old. 5’11 280lbs and he’s 100% natural and muscular. He has a 400lb bench and reps 180lbs on the curl bar. He is an absolute beast. Want proof that high levels of test don’t mean a thing? We almost shit when we saw his testosterone results were 360 after fasting. So I’m sure I have a lot of trial and error left here before I am in a stable range that my body agrees with. System lord… I really respect that you were able to find that keeping your level around 400 is your sweet spot. It takes a lot of courage to do as I am personally finding and I’m still a bit uneasy of my decision to drop to 60mg twice a week. Even with feeling better. It’s not easy to comprehend that more isn’t better when there are so many people out there preaching otherwise. Yes I want to be a beast in the gym and gain some muscle absolutely I do. But not a price of putting myself in a potentially harmful situation. I really thank you guys for opening my eyes to this before I had any further issues.
I even made exceptions for the side effects for a while because I was getting good gains in the gym. Enough of me rambling. Hoping to have you all here to help when I get my next blood work back in 3 weeks.
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I’m still in the fence on if I skip a shot before I my next blood work to make sure my levels are in range so this Dr don’t cancel my script. If I can keep the 60mg 2x a week and keep my total test under 850 that’s my goal till my blood becomes stable. Then I will drop to 50mg 2x a week to see if I feel even better.
Good questions. Unfortunately the answer to these questions remains unknown. There is still a lot to be discovered.
To me its really surprising that no long term (>10 years) studies about TRT are available yet. TRT has been around for quite some time.
To me its clear. Even if there is a 10% higher increase of lets say myocardial infarction (which again i dont think there is), i am willing to accept this. The benefits on how i feel and how i can now master my life by far outweights this risk. I can exercise again 4 to 5x a week and not be completely exhausted for 2 days from a single 45 min run. But i try to go with the lowest effective dose (and this certainly differs from person to Person). For me the least medication (number and dose) is the best medication.
You get TRT prescribed as an adult. For me its important that there is transparency. If one knows that there is conflicting data regarding eg. the risk on CVD, then this should be mentioned and everybody can make up his own decision.
Stay on that dose if you feel fine. Again i am not against TRT, i am experiencing all the positive effects for myself.
If you skip or change your dose now then you will never find out what your levels are on your current dose. If it turns out that your T is above 850 and - for crying out loud - your doc should not cancel your script but lower the dose!
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and apologizes for hijacking your thread!
But good to hear that you are feeling better!
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Thank you my friend. I know this is a subject that could be debated forever without everyone coming to a shared conclusion. I’m hoping that with all of your help we can find out a solution that works best for not only myself. But for others who are faced with thinking the need excessive amounts of testosterone in order to feel well. It is clearly not the case from what I’ve experienced. I really want to help steer others in th right direction as well as myself with this post. I re read all my posts and saw how hard it was to make the choice to drop my dosage. I’m sure it’s a common battle for many when starting trt.
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I was a competitive Strongman with sub 300 test. 650 raw squat, 850+ equipped, Ibeat my heavily juiced training partner at every contest. Genetics determine lifting, largely.
I do 200mg doing daily injections. I can’t do 200mg once weekly injections. Or twice weekly. Have you tried daily injections? Have you ever felt optimal on trt? Kind of hard to say what works and doesn’t if you haven’t figured out what works yourself. It took me a long time going from 100-220mg and every injection frequency to find what worked. For me it’s 200mg for Johann it’s 50-100mg. Personally I’m more worried about the long term effects of 5G that will be everywhere soon.
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I’m only 13 weeks into this and learning as I go. If your dosage works for you thats great I’d love to see your blood work with your hemoglobin and rbc in range. Mine was over after 11 weeks even after 4 weeks of switching my injections to 100mg 2x a week… If you are an exception to being able to keep your numbers within safe levels then I’d love to see how your last blood work looked while taking that amount. I’m here to openly hear opinions, facts, and people’s personal experiences on there trt journey. I have a long way to go yes and I know I am not where in optimal yet, but I am keeping an open mind. Have you explored lower MG per week options? What was your lowest that you found sufficient?
It is not practical that I travel with multiple needles and do sub Q daily injections right now until I have a Dr prescription for daily injection and I’ve explored if I can make the twice a week thing work for me.
That’s amazing yeah you are a true beast indeed. I am finding that the common misconception is people feel that they need high testosterone for muscle mass and growth and strength. Again this is proving to not be the case. Another fact that goes in my research that will help others when they feel they need high numbers to feel good or gain muscle. Thank you for sharing that. So how do we know what level is right for us? Keep changing our dosage every 4 to 5 weeks till we feel a certain way and our blood tests are stable? Can you or someone point out what being in the perfect range feels like? I feel pretty dam good and I’m barely into my dosage drop. I’m seeing a lot of you that know what you are talking about are doing the daily sub Q injection. I would love to learn more about this but do you feel that I can be stable and feel my best injecting 2x a week? Or is the daily injection what gives you the best over all feel good and muscle building platform? For now it’s about feeling good and vein healthy but I definitely want to get my health in a place to where I can start lifting again to push my limits.
I feel motivated to do things, like lift, ,with my levels up. I’'m twice a week, but recently switched to shallow IM. IM and Sub-Q are basically no different to me, but other guys are radically affected by that kind of change. It really is basically an experiment on each of us to find what works just right. The only constants are that the less drugs you can use the better (simpler) and its best to start low and work up.
Daily sub-q and IM both had the same effect for me as well so I just do IM.
This and consistency.
I’ve been a natty bodybuilder since 14 and I’m now 41. I was about 36 when I started trt. My dr made me get numerous steroid metabolite tests to make sure I wasn’t shopping for gear. I had an amazing physique due to flat out hard work, diet and long term consistency.
My dr and I couldn’t figure out how I had the build I did with such low natural production of test.
I think the biggest thing is staying consistent. Working out/bodybuilding is 100% marathon. Not a sprint.
The big differences on TRT are bigger shoulders and I’m losing fat. I am carrying less fat now than I did in my younger days and I’m doing less to cause that. Any sort of cut before and my shoulder disappeared until I ate normal again.
OK guys here’s an update. Just went in to give blood today at the Red cross blood drive and they denied me because my hemoglobin was 20.7. My hemoglobin was 18.4 ony last blood work now and right after my Dr said to lower it like a week ago or 2 ago I’m now at 20.7?
So now I can’t even give blood to lower it. If I go in and request to see my Dr to tell him he’s gonna pull my script and I’m fucked. Need some help here guys. I’m also dealing with post surgery hernia repair so I’m all ready feeling like a truck hit me. Not sure if having surgery messes with hemoglobin, but I’m listing everything that I feel might be a potential issue. I’m supposed to have these numbers down in 2 weeks so I’m getting stressed here. I don’t want to mess with my dosage any more because the last 2 times I did I felt like shit after and least week wasn’t fun dropping my dosage to 60mg 2x a week.
So I gotta find a way to get my hemoglobin down to at least 17 in 2 weeks or somehow drop this Dr and hope I can find a new one without him pulling my script on the way out the door. Yeah it’s a mess sorry guys hoping for a solution here.
Go online and get a blood letting kit for cheap and do it yourself. It’s easy. Although I’ve never done it myself I’ve injected intravenously many a time. It doesn’t hurt and it’s not scary once you do it.
There’s how-to videos on YouTube for guys doing it themselves.
OK guys here’s a quick update where I’m at… My hemoglobin was at 18.4 about a month ago, and after lowering my dosage to 120mg a week in 2 divided dosages @ 60mg 2x a week my hemoglobin went up from 18.4 to 20.7 almost 3 weeks later… Giving my shitty Dr. a reason to threaten to take me off testosterone. I got into it with him the first time we met and he’s had it in for me ever since. He’s the only Dr within an hour + distance so this is what I have for now. Anyway…
I realized I was making a mistake with my dosage by putting an air pocket behind my test which was giving me much more then 60mg per shot in my 1.5in. 25g 3ml syringe and needle… Last week I started using insulin syringes, and doing subcutaneous injections finally accurately @ 60mg 2x a week… My goal is to get my total T levels around 800 to see how I feel there as well lower my hemoglobin. My levels were over 1500 at 60mg 2x a week with the air pocket behind the medicine and from what I’ve seen I was more likely at like 90mg because the reservoir in the needle holds much more then it looks and when you put the air behind the medicine. It gives almost the full amount. That’s great if you are running a steroid cycle I guess… So my question is… Will my hemoglobin lower without giving blood on it’s own now that I have a stable and accurate lower dosage? If so. What is the time frame? I have to comply with a blood test tomorrow which will be 9 days since I switched to my insulin needles @ 60mg 2x a week dosage. My total T needs to be below 836 to comply with his PROTOCOL. I swear his last one said the high was 950 now this one said the high was 836…its bullshit. I’m really stressed about this. My last shot was Monday at 8am and my next shot will be tomorrow Thursday at 8pm… So I was thinking to go in to do my test late afternoon in hopes that my level is lower then 800. If I eat a good meal before will it be lower? Any suggestions and help is always greatly appreciated.
Thanks for getting me to this point guys… Really liking the subcutaneous injections BTW 
Thanks…
It’s not high per say, insurance companies turn doctors into robots, levels 800> requires automatic action by the doctor even though levels are not officially high, they are in fact normal.
In 2017 those levels were considered normal, back then the ranges went all the way to 1197 ng/dL, when it was changed all men were instantly supraphysiological, so in another 10 years 800 will be supraphysiological and we will be force to lower our dosage again until we have the testosterone levels of children.
Normal and healthy testosterone are not the same thing, normal is a fat obese unhealthy population and is the new standard.
