There is a blood barrier that prevents AI’s from passing to the testes, thus being unable to inhibit aromatase there. HCG stimulates production there, so AI’s cannot stop the aromatization effected by HCG. In short, it suppresses aromatisation everywhere except where it is happening. That being said, if Ksman wrote the post, you should assume it’s incorrect and work out from there. I would be interested in reading the studies he claims exist in that post, I haven’t found them and he doesn’t actually reference them. I am leaning towards the opnion that they have never existed at all and he is just making stuff up.
See my post above, I addressed this. My research and knowledge leads me to believe otherwise.
This also stands in stark contrast to @readalot ‘s comment.
I just saw you yourself (@hardartery) wrote you couldn’t find them and it’s probably incorrect. My point is: if non steroidal AIs pass the blood brain barrier which has a significantly higher integrity and more proteins which transport molecules out, then they should easily be able to pass through the blood testis barrier. I think it’s very unlikely they don’t get into the nuts. @readalot could you point us in the right direction?
I am happy to stand corrected. I am going on what I have read, which I have on my old laptop and not with me. It would change my understanding of some things if that info is incorrect - and I prefer to have a correct understanding than to be right.
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Me too! And I think it’s a lot of fun to learn new stuff especially when you put some effort into researching something and get presented with different findings, that way everybody can work on their research skills as well as their knowledge.
You meant intratesticular E2 Levels right? Just for clarification.
Yes we need some experience here. @iron_yuppie since you are using hCG with your TRT, what’s your experience?
The decreased E2 level is primarily due to letrozole-induced significant decline in the expression of aromatase enzyme level in the testis
The explanation is wrong in my opinion. Letrozole doesn’t inhibit expression but the enzyme itself.
In vivo, letrozole induced an increase in ovarian size compared with the control group and also induced a profound increase of androgen, LH levels, and Cyp17a1 mRNA expression.
It can even increase expression rate.
Thanks @anon18050987 ! I think we got the theory relatively on point by now. AIs should inhibit aromatization caused by hCG
So they based their statement on the absolute numbers but stated the relative numbers wrong then stated it right. Don’t attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity, I guess. But this happens to often in discussions. This forum actually got me to read the papers from my future research group again and specifically search for these types of mistakes. Will be a lot of fun to read through all references haha
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I don’t know if you’re still following your thread but if I were you I’d contact Dr Thomas O’Conner aka The Anabolic Doc and have him work out a tailored program for you. He used to have a radio show devoted to TRT, Fertility and all things hormones. He talked in depth on several episodes about how he gets people that have been on steroids for decades back to being fertile. Especially when it comes to that he knows his shit and has real world experience. Like @iron_yuppie said Clomid monotherapy is one of the tools he uses with great success.
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Hi everyone! Hope you all are doing well. I know this post has grown old, but wanted to update you all and maybe get some opinions.
So originally I shared my really shitty hormone levels with you all and you gave me some great advice and research. I really appreciate everyone’s input and effort and wanted to provide an update.
After much consideration of everyone’s suggestions, I decided to do absolutely nothing. I did not take clomid or nolva or any monotherapy due to phycological and skin reactions. I did not use HCG because I did not want to shut down again. I just wanted to see if I could continue to improve naturally since I had my levels up just enough to not feel like death. I’ve read a lot that after about a year or two, 90% recovery could be made naturally. I am still skeptical of this but thought it would be best to try. It has been almost 4 months exactly since my original post and yesterday I got my levels checked again to see if there was any difference. The results aren’t dramatic, but still encouraging I think. There is definitely some minor improvement and wanted to see how you thought I should proceed from here, or if the improvement is not enough to justify continuing to heal naturally.
Old Levels that I originally posted 8/4/20:
FSH= 1.7 IU/L 1.5-12.4 MAIN
LH= 3.1 IU/L 1.2-8.6 MAIN
TESTOSTERONE= 177 LNG/DL 300-1080 MAIN
SEX HORM BIND GLOBULIN= 19.7 NMOL/L 16.5 - 55.9 MAIN
CALC FREE TESTOSTERONE= 43.7 LPG/ML 47.0 - 244.0 MAIN
New Levels as of 12/2/20:
FSH= 2.0 IU/L 1.5-12.4 MAIN
LH= 3.6 IU/L 1.2-8.6 MAIN
TESTOSTERONE= 279 LNG/DL 300-1080 MAIN
SEX HORM BIND GLOBULIN= 19.3 NMOL/L 16.5 - 55.9 MAIN
CALC FREE TESTOSTERONE= 71.8 LPG/ML 47.0 - 244.0 MAIN
Cans someone shed some light on why my sec hormone has gone down slightly, and what it means to have a higher increase in free testosterone than testosterone. I am happy that T is almost in normal range and since its so close, it makes me want to give it another 4 months of natural recovery. What do you guys make of these results?
Thanks again for so much insight the first time around, I did read every single post very carefully. Not sure how to tag you guys on this so that you come back and read this, anyone know how to do that?
@anon18050987 Readalot
@iron_yuppie iron_yuppie
@mnben87 mnben87
@lordgains lordgains
Your lh and fsh went up. Those are the testosterone signaling hormones. They are still low normal, but will most likely come up more with time. At this point I think just waiting and testing again in 4 months is a good course of action.
Thanks! I’m thinking the same. I feel decent but the only shitty thing is that my libido is about 1/10 of what it used to be. Is there any fix for this or just have to wait it out?
Yes LH and FSH are increasing very slowly. Hopefully will have the same returns on increase after another 4 months. Will be ok if I can just get my libido halfway back.
The standard course of procedure for exactly this problem is a SERM, like tamoxifen or clomifen.
I think this post from @readalot says it quite well (I love that graph). There’s data on recovery without any help (granted, from specific circumstances) and it can happen but takes a while.
Well, the free T stuff is very complicated. I’d rather not go into it deeply here (it would fit the rest in here though, as this could be the in depth research thread that I can link at any time if someone asks such a question haha) but free T is believed to be the bioactive form which means if free T is good, then you are good, no matter what total T is BUT that doesn’t seem to be right. SHBG bound T seems to be important for biological functioning and may even be the main active form. I wonder if there are studies measuring subjective well-being in relation to free T and total T (probably not, too simplistic, maybe in TRT patients). If SHBG decreases, free T increases. T also binds to other proteins like albumin. The body normally knows how to regulate these variables to get you to function and it’s very individual. I’m not going to make any suggestions about how high free T should be or how high SHBG should be.
I mainly see a positive trend and I think your Testis need time to recover. Your hypothalamus and pituitary seem to work (they’ll probably improve a bit further). Your nuts not so much it seems. HCG would be an option but then I’d rather go the SERM route. The information for that is above.
Thank you very much. Below is an an exerpt from what readalot posted a while back… I have a couple questions…
…
" Paradoxical Response with Lower Testosterone Levels
Repeat labs at 6 weeks showed testosterone levels had actually dropped lower to the 150 ng/dl range. FSH and LH were undetectable. My diagnosis at this point was hypothalamic suppression, and the HCG was discontinued.
Switch to Clomiphene was Sucessful
Treatment with Clomid (clomiphene 25 mg tablet daily) was started. Six weeks later, the patient reported “feeling like my old self” with improved energy, libido and mood. Repeat labs 6 weeks after starting the Clomid showed testosterone levels of 832 ng/dl, and LH and FSH had increased as well. Serum estrogen was quite high at 72 pg/ml. Anastrazole was added to the treatment program with follow up normalization of estrogen levels."
So in this study, HCG actually made things worse for this person and lowered their natural T even further.
However when they took 25mg clomid for two weeks they felt better and got a increase in T.
…
Did we ever determine if there was adverse affects or severe drop in T after the 6 week clomid monotherapy? This is what I am mostly afraid of, fucking up all the progress that I have made so far by taking serms for 6 weeks, discontinuing, and having a horrible drop in T … Is there any info about what happens generally after discontinuation of SERM after 6 weeks… Pardon my ignorance as a lot of these scientific papers don’t make a whole lot of sense to me.
You should read my and readalots posts about this quote from the doctor further down. The hypothalamic suppression is not possible to be the cause for his low T levels if he’s injecting hCG.
Yes. LH and FSH will drop, most of the time to back in range as on Tamoxifen they are most of the time very high. This is accompanied by a drop in T but hopefully T settles at a higher point than it was before PCT. So a PCT is there to speed up the process. Often it works, sometimes it doesn’t.