Health Care is Not a Right

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I understand what you’re saying but I also understand human nature quite well. And I think that your system can be played just as easily as the US when it comes to those who want to live off the government dole. If someone is rewarded enough for doing nothing that’s exactly what they’ll keep on doing.

I agree with this. I just think we should do our utmost to stop people from playing the system, rather than simply doing away with it.

For example: if you are on food stamps, your license is electronically marked and you are entirely prohibited from buying cigarettes and alcohol. It’s not going to solve the problem, but little things like that can add up.[/quote]

Well, I actually think that’s a step in the right direction. But how about this; instead of simply handing people on welfare free money how about they have to stop in at the local office and sweep floors, rake, shovel snow, wash dishes, or maybe just sit in a room and make a list of what skills they have to offer the work place?

[/quote]

I would fully support such a measure.[/quote]

Now you’re thinking clearly!

Unfortunately we DO NOT have a Chief Executive in the oval office who agrees with us. And I do not think that we will ever see the sort of meaningful change that we both agree is needed as long as democrats hold power. Keep in mind a good portion of their constituency are the very people who feel entitled to government funds for doing nothing.

And that is one reason why I am a republican and vote conservative.[/quote]

UK government is trying to make the long-term unemployded do manual labour actually

Interesting. But we have a bigger welfare state than you do I believe (But we spend less on healthcare on you despite seeing healthcare as a right - it’s a strange world!)
[/quote]

But the USA has the best health care system in the world. Ask all of the Canadians who come across the border when they need some serious work done.

Gee, sure is a good thing Obama is changing all of that.

62

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I understand what you’re saying but I also understand human nature quite well. And I think that your system can be played just as easily as the US when it comes to those who want to live off the government dole. If someone is rewarded enough for doing nothing that’s exactly what they’ll keep on doing.

I agree with this. I just think we should do our utmost to stop people from playing the system, rather than simply doing away with it.

For example: if you are on food stamps, your license is electronically marked and you are entirely prohibited from buying cigarettes and alcohol. It’s not going to solve the problem, but little things like that can add up.[/quote]

Well, I actually think that’s a step in the right direction. But how about this; instead of simply handing people on welfare free money how about they have to stop in at the local office and sweep floors, rake, shovel snow, wash dishes, or maybe just sit in a room and make a list of what skills they have to offer the work place?

[/quote]

I would fully support such a measure.[/quote]

Now you’re thinking clearly!

Unfortunately we DO NOT have a Chief Executive in the oval office who agrees with us. And I do not think that we will ever see the sort of meaningful change that we both agree is needed as long as democrats hold power. Keep in mind a good portion of their constituency are the very people who feel entitled to government funds for doing nothing.

And that is one reason why I am a republican and vote conservative.[/quote]

UK government is trying to make the long-term unemployded do manual labour actually

Interesting. But we have a bigger welfare state than you do I believe (But we spend less on healthcare on you despite seeing healthcare as a right - it’s a strange world!)
[/quote]

Yes you spend less on health care & you get what you pay for. How long is the wait to get an MRI? Hip replacement?

63

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Rights or no rights, I believe that we should see to the health of our brothers and sisters to the extent that we can without incurring unreasonable personal financial loss.[/quote]

And you want to entrust the government to do that? You want them to make sure that they don’t take so much money from us that we incur unreasonable financial loss? No really, come on I know you’re young but you are not an idiot.

Then by all means you can do that now through the numerous charities which serve the poor. Why would want to demand that the rest of us do it also? You have no right to take my money from me and spend it on someone else. That’s pure lunacy.

64

Correct, health care is not a right. If health care is a right, as the socialists and non-rational thinkers will assert, then so is food, employment, transportation, a Hugo Boss suit and on and on and on.

All you HAD a right to in the US was life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but now the socialists as well as many of the conservatives have deemed rights to be whatever the hell they want them to be.

You don’t get your RIGHT to healthcare by stealing it out of my fucking pocket. I have to support the parasites of the world as well as pay Blue Cross $850 a fucking month for my own family.

65

[quote]saveski wrote:
I have to support the parasites of the world as well as pay Blue Cross $850 a fucking month for my own family.[/quote]

That’s way more than what I pay in taxes for health care. And I know I will get help no matter what happens to me, and I will never be in debt because there was some loophole in my insurance that says I have to pay for this and that. I’ll gladly pay a third of my salary so I, my family, my friends and everybody else can get the medical treatment they need to live as good a life as possible.

The thing I don’t understand, is now during the financial crisis, when a lot of americans lost their jobs, and therefore also lost their insurance (I have understood that it’s normal to get insurance though your job?), wouldn’t you rather have paid more in taxes, and know that if your daughter of five years had an asthma attack or something else not life threatening but still shitty and VERY uncomfortable disease or accident, she would receive the medical treatment she needed, without you having to take up a loan. Or if you couldn’t afford the loan, go back home and watch her suffer and cry all night, and you could do nothing.

Another example, I know you’re probably gonna hate it, but in the film Sicko, there’s this guy who lost two of his fingers in an accident. He had to pay for putting his fingers back on, on of the fingers would cost him $60.000 and the other would cost him $12.000. He could only afford one of the fingers, so he had to choose. But anyway, if he had paid health care taxes his whole life, he would probably still have paid less than what putting both his fingers back on would have cost. And yeah, you’ll probable roar about that why should I have to pay for his fingers, blablabla, well maybe next time it’s you that’s in his situation, and you can’t afford it, but wouldn’t you be really fucking happy if you’d still get your fingers back? It’s a give and take thing, maybe you pay more than you get back, or maybe you don’t. But I know I sleep a little better at night when I don’t have to worry about if I can afford getting sick or not.

66

[quote]smh23 wrote:
It may not be a “right.” What is a right? Who decides that it is a right? Is it written somewhere in absolute terms that one thing is a “right” and one is not?

Rights or no rights, I believe that we should see to the health of our brothers and sisters to the extent that we can without incurring unreasonable personal financial loss. My life and health and survival come first for me. But if I make a good living, and a relatively small piece of that living is shaved off, and that piece goes to keeping someone alive somewhere else, then I’m ok with it.[/quote]

Are you really this fucking stupid? Of course it is written somewhere - it’s called the Bill of Rights. These are your RIGHTS as an American citizen. That is all.

67

The government has no right to steal my safety net and give it to someone else who doesn’t have one.

68

Well I will be the first to say that the employer healthcare provision is a stupid function of our system. This is exacerbated in the recession such as this.

Remove the need for employers to provide healthcare, and you have less overall costs of hiring workers, and more people will be employed.

Then have individual policies purchased similar to Auto Insurance. I know I shop around for the best rates and coverages for my car, why shouldnt it be the same for my healthcare? I believe you would see a drastic drop in price for those that do not have the luxury of employer provided healthcare. Policies can then be tailored to the individual, such as my 25 year old self will need different coverage than a 65 year old retiree. Thus I will spend less when I am younger, and more when I am older, as it should be considering the risk premium. This would save more money over the lifetime of the individual as the money allotted to healthcare benefits in their paycheck will then go directly to them to make investment decisions about their healthcare coverage.

Additionally, base to base advertising and marketing such as being done currently in the energy industry, or on sites such as groupon could help the consumer and lower prices by increased economies of scale that is the current argument for the safety net of everyone paying for the safety of everyone else. If you get 100,000 people signed up via those internet deals or b2b marketing, prices can be lowered as margins are made up for by volume.

Universal healthcare/ employer provided healthcare, government loans for education all create a disincentive for saving which pervades our economy, causing funds to be misallocated and prices to rise. Thus, a “well intentioned” motive such as the above to make things accessible to all, eventually creates a bubble and prices people out of the very same market they were meant to have access to.

69

[quote]absalon wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
I have to support the parasites of the world as well as pay Blue Cross $850 a fucking month for my own family.[/quote]

That’s way more than what I pay in taxes for health care. And I know I will get help no matter what happens to me, and I will never be in debt because there was some loophole in my insurance that says I have to pay for this and that. I’ll gladly pay a third of my salary so I, my family, my friends and everybody else can get the medical treatment they need to live as good a life as possible.

The thing I don’t understand, is now during the financial crisis, when a lot of americans lost their jobs, and therefore also lost their insurance (I have understood that it’s normal to get insurance though your job?), wouldn’t you rather have paid more in taxes, and know that if your daughter of five years had an asthma attack or something else not life threatening but still shitty and VERY uncomfortable disease or accident, she would receive the medical treatment she needed, without you having to take up a loan. Or if you couldn’t afford the loan, go back home and watch her suffer and cry all night, and you could do nothing.

Another example, I know you’re probably gonna hate it, but in the film Sicko, there’s this guy who lost two of his fingers in an accident. He had to pay for putting his fingers back on, on of the fingers would cost him $60.000 and the other would cost him $12.000. He could only afford one of the fingers, so he had to choose. But anyway, if he had paid health care taxes his whole life, he would probably still have paid less than what putting both his fingers back on would have cost. And yeah, you’ll probable roar about that why should I have to pay for his fingers, blablabla, well maybe next time it’s you that’s in his situation, and you can’t afford it, but wouldn’t you be really fucking happy if you’d still get your fingers back? It’s a give and take thing, maybe you pay more than you get back, or maybe you don’t. But I know I sleep a little better at night when I don’t have to worry about if I can afford getting sick or not.[/quote]

I guess it’s a good thing you live in a socialist country. Now if we could just convince people like SMH23 to move there (or UK, or Canada or Cuba) and stop trying to fuck up our country, we’d all be happy.

70

[quote]Wilba wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
It may not be a “right.” What is a right? Who decides that it is a right? Is it written somewhere in absolute terms that one thing is a “right” and one is not?

Rights or no rights, I believe that we should see to the health of our brothers and sisters to the extent that we can without incurring unreasonable personal financial loss. My life and health and survival come first for me. But if I make a good living, and a relatively small piece of that living is shaved off, and that piece goes to keeping someone alive somewhere else, then I’m ok with it.[/quote]

Are you really this fucking stupid? Of course it is written somewhere - it’s called the Bill of Rights. These are your RIGHTS as an American citizen. That is all.

[/quote]

I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.

71

[quote]666Rich wrote:
Well I will be the first to say that the employer healthcare provision is a stupid function of our system. This is exacerbated in the recession such as this.

Remove the need for employers to provide healthcare, and you have less overall costs of hiring workers, and more people will be employed.

Then have individual policies purchased similar to Auto Insurance. I know I shop around for the best rates and coverages for my car, why shouldnt it be the same for my healthcare? I believe you would see a drastic drop in price for those that do not have the luxury of employer provided healthcare. Policies can then be tailored to the individual, such as my 25 year old self will need different coverage than a 65 year old retiree. Thus I will spend less when I am younger, and more when I am older, as it should be considering the risk premium. This would save more money over the lifetime of the individual as the money allotted to healthcare benefits in their paycheck will then go directly to them to make investment decisions about their healthcare coverage.

Additionally, base to base advertising and marketing such as being done currently in the energy industry, or on sites such as groupon could help the consumer and lower prices by increased economies of scale that is the current argument for the safety net of everyone paying for the safety of everyone else. If you get 100,000 people signed up via those internet deals or b2b marketing, prices can be lowered as margins are made up for by volume.

Universal healthcare/ employer provided healthcare, government loans for education all create a disincentive for saving which pervades our economy, causing funds to be misallocated and prices to rise. Thus, a “well intentioned” motive such as the above to make things accessible to all, eventually creates a bubble and prices people out of the very same market they were meant to have access to. [/quote]

How did we get to where employers pay for health care? It was due the wage freeze Nixon put in place in 1971. That led to employers having to come up with different ways to attract employees. The law od unintended consequences. Every “solution” the gov’t comes up with only causes more problems. I agree a true free market would solve most of our problems.

72

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

73

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

I hope this is some kind of joke. Of course I understand what the Bill of Rights is. Hence my (sarcastic) declaration that I had missed the part where it was an exhaustive list of man’s rights. I.E. I was saying to the guy that had cited the Bill of Rights that it did not apply to this discussion. I can’t see how you didn’t pick up on that.

74

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.

75

[quote]Wilba wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.[/quote]

Where does health care figure in? Enlighten me.

76

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

I hope this is some kind of joke. Of course I understand what the Bill of Rights is. Hence my (sarcastic) declaration that I had missed the part where it was an exhaustive list of man’s rights. I.E. I was saying to the guy that had cited the Bill of Rights that it did not apply to this discussion. I can’t see how you didn’t pick up on that.[/quote]

It not only applies, it’s central. The discussion isn’t about human rights it’s about taxation and the relationship of Americans with their government. If you want to give away your money to help people that’s great. There are many worthy charities. That was never the intended role of government in our society.

77

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Wilba wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.[/quote]

Where does health care figure in? Enlighten me.[/quote]

There once was a squabble over tax on tea if you recall. Do you see now?

78

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Wilba wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.[/quote]

Where does health care figure in? Enlighten me.[/quote]

Can you read the 10th Amendment?

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

If its not in the Constitution it belongs to the individual states or the people.

79

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Wilba wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I missed the part where anyone was talking about the Bill of Rights. I missed the part where the Bill of Rights was a definitive and exhaustive list of every right bestowed upon man, American of otherwise.

People are debating this intelligently in here. You aren’t.[/quote]

You are obviously not from here and have not studied the constitution but the Bill of Rights is not to give rights to man but to tell the US government they cannot infringe upon these specific rights.

If you can read English you should reread it and pay particular attention to the language and how each of the Amendments makes reference to what the government is NOT ALLOWED to do.

There is a difference in what the government can take away versus what it can give. The Bill of Rights is to protect rights we already have not give us rights beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.[/quote]

Where does health care figure in? Enlighten me.[/quote]

Logic isn’t your strong suit is it? it figures in by the fact that it’s absent, it has to be “provided” by someone, it is not “endowed by our creator” and is therefore not a right.

80

Go back over what I’ve been saying in this thread. I’m talking about health care as a right…in the philosophical sense. As in: do human beings have a right to be healthy. If so: should the government see to it that this right is provided.

Good job to all of you for looking through the Constitution. If the original question was: does the US Constitution list health care as a right…well then it would’ve taken a single post to close this thread. The point, so far as I can tell, was a bit deeper and more philosophical than a single yes or no answer.