Health Care is Not a Right

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

You have no idea what that quote means do you? Try this:
http://www.hiscovenantministries.org/scripture/romans_2.htm[/quote]

That isn’t the only way to interpret Jesus’ words. This selection in particular is the subject of much debate. It does seem, though, to be a justification for obeying human law, including (and indeed, in this instance, in specific reference to) those regarding taxation.[/quote]
Only if you take it out of context.

Again, only if you take it out of context.

The words are the words. The fact that someone centuries later realized that the words can lead to a dangerous form of complacency does nothing to change the original sentiment, which is unambiguous.[/quote]

No, this highlights the difference between quoting the Bible and understanding the Bible. By simply quoting it you take phrases at random and support whatever argument you are trying to make. Understanding the Bible makes that much more difficult.[/quote]

Then show how they’ve been misinterpreted, i.e. try and make an argument, the conclusion of which would have this sentence meaning anything other than “follow Earthly law.” To say “this would have justified complicity with Hitler’s laws” does nothing to change the words on the page.[/quote]

I did. Read the links.

262

Like I said, the argument in the link does nothing to contradict the sentiment in itself…it merely shows how ridiculous the sentiment is.

Maybe you could put an argument in your own words.

263

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

You have no idea what that quote means do you? Try this:
http://www.hiscovenantministries.org/scripture/romans_2.htm[/quote]

That isn’t the only way to interpret Jesus’ words. This selection in particular is the subject of much debate. It does seem, though, to be a justification for obeying human law, including (and indeed, in this instance, in specific reference to) those regarding taxation.

This sentiment would be corroborated by Romans 13:1–“Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God.”[/quote]

Here is a proper interpretation of Mk 12:17:

Although Christ clearly establishes here the strict obligation of paying to Cæsar what belongs to Cæsar, to the confusion of his very enemies, we shall still find them bringing forward against him the charge of disloyalty, as if he forbade tribute to be paid to Cæsar. (Luke xxiii. 2.) After the example of her divine Model, the Catholic Church has uniformly taught with St. Paul, the necessity of obeying the powers in being; and this not for fear of their wrath, but for conscience sake. Render to Cæsar the money on which his image is stamped, but render yourselves cheerfully to God; for the light of thy countenance, O Lord, is stamped upon us, (Psalm iv.) and not the image of Cæsar. (St. Jerome) — With reason were they astonished at the wisdom of this answer, which eluded all their artifices, and taught them at the same time what they owed to their prince, and what they owed to God: and whoever hopes for the favour of heaven, must conscientiously observe this double duty to God and to the magistrate.

264

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

You have no idea what that quote means do you? Try this:
http://www.hiscovenantministries.org/scripture/romans_2.htm[/quote]

That isn’t the only way to interpret Jesus’ words. This selection in particular is the subject of much debate. It does seem, though, to be a justification for obeying human law, including (and indeed, in this instance, in specific reference to) those regarding taxation.

This sentiment would be corroborated by Romans 13:1–“Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God.”[/quote]

Here is a proper interpretation of Mk 12:17:

Although Christ clearly establishes here the strict obligation of paying to CÃ?¦sar what belongs to CÃ?¦sar, to the confusion of his very enemies, we shall still find them bringing forward against him the charge of disloyalty, as if he forbade tribute to be paid to CÃ?¦sar. (Luke xxiii. 2.) After the example of her divine Model, the Catholic Church has uniformly taught with St. Paul, the necessity of obeying the powers in being; and this not for fear of their wrath, but for conscience sake. Render to CÃ?¦sar the money on which his image is stamped, but render yourselves cheerfully to God; for the light of thy countenance, O Lord, is stamped upon us, (Psalm iv.) and not the image of CÃ?¦sar. (St. Jerome) — With reason were they astonished at the wisdom of this answer, which eluded all their artifices, and taught them at the same time what they owed to their prince, and what they owed to God: and whoever hopes for the favour of heaven, must conscientiously observe this double duty to God and to the magistrate.
[/quote]

That however is questionable because if he had actually advised to pay tribute to Caesar he would have advised to violate Mosaic law.

The point was to not give an answer but to expose their hypocrisy, it was up to them to give the answer what Caesars was and they could not do so without walking into the trap they had set up for him.

To claim that he preached submission to eartly authority is wishful thinking at best and instrumentalizing religion at worst.

I think the actual text should be a strong hint:

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. â??Teacher,â?? they said, â??we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You arenâ??t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?â??

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, â??You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.â?? They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, â??Whose image is this? And whose inscription?â??

21 â??Caesarâ??s,â?? they replied.

Then he said to them, â??So give back to Caesar what is Caesarâ??s, and to God what is Godâ??s.â??

22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

265

[quote]orion wrote:
submission to eartly authority
[/quote]

All authority comes from God and to disobey authority given from God would also be disobedience to God.

266

free health care,
but at whose expense?
if it places a burden on someone else,
it’s not a right.

267

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
submission to eartly authority
[/quote]

All authority comes from God and to disobey authority given from God would also be disobedience to God.[/quote]

Says who?

Certainly not Jesus.

Given Tiribulus God it would make sense that He is responsible for Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot and I wish to thank you for an explanation for the Churches conduct during WWII, if they Holocaust wqas divinely ordained, how could they have not blessed cannons?

I am running into a slight problem though, if Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt and the Tenno were there, because God wanted them to be, who did the right thing?

Does God have different truths for different people?

268

I liked Dick Morris’s video from yesterday about AARP and health care in America, along with social security and elderly poverty in the US.

“AARP ? THE ULTIMATE HYPOCRITES”

“In this video commentary, I discuss why the AARP are actually endorsing Social Security cuts and explore why they are selling out the elderly.”

269

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ink wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Excellent idea for a thread. And I’d like to ask the same question that I asked on another thread. If health care is such a basic right as the left loves to say, how come other things are not considered a basic right? Things like a free car, free housing, free food, even free clothing. Surely those things are even more basic.

[/quote]

A car is a more basic right than health care? Seriously, sometimes you Americans can really throw me for a loop… In Norway, where I come from, health care is almost free, and the other basics (housing, food etc - not cars, however) are covered by our social services if one is unable to provide for oneself. It’s still MUCH more profitable to work for a living, but most everyone is taken care of if the need arises. Sure this can be exploited to some degree, but the majority seem willing to accept that.[/quote]

Norway…sheesh. That’s why I thank God I live in America. [/quote]

Yes, thank god we live in america, where thousands of people are homeless. yes, america is so great. We help other countries, yet let all the homeless people live on the streets. Why on earth would anyone want to live in a country where all people have a place to live, regardless if they work or not. Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you.

270

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ink wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Excellent idea for a thread. And I’d like to ask the same question that I asked on another thread. If health care is such a basic right as the left loves to say, how come other things are not considered a basic right? Things like a free car, free housing, free food, even free clothing. Surely those things are even more basic.

[/quote]

A car is a more basic right than health care? Seriously, sometimes you Americans can really throw me for a loop… In Norway, where I come from, health care is almost free, and the other basics (housing, food etc - not cars, however) are covered by our social services if one is unable to provide for oneself. It’s still MUCH more profitable to work for a living, but most everyone is taken care of if the need arises. Sure this can be exploited to some degree, but the majority seem willing to accept that.[/quote]

Norway…sheesh. That’s why I thank God I live in America. [/quote]

Yes, thank god we live in america, where thousands of people are homeless. yes, america is so great. We help other countries, yet let all the homeless people live on the streets. Why on earth would anyone want to live in a country where all people have a place to live, regardless if they work or not. Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]
Private Charity
http://www.ccdenver.org/Services/Homelessness/Samaritan-House-(1).aspx

271

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ink wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Excellent idea for a thread. And I’d like to ask the same question that I asked on another thread. If health care is such a basic right as the left loves to say, how come other things are not considered a basic right? Things like a free car, free housing, free food, even free clothing. Surely those things are even more basic.

[/quote]

A car is a more basic right than health care? Seriously, sometimes you Americans can really throw me for a loop… In Norway, where I come from, health care is almost free, and the other basics (housing, food etc - not cars, however) are covered by our social services if one is unable to provide for oneself. It’s still MUCH more profitable to work for a living, but most everyone is taken care of if the need arises. Sure this can be exploited to some degree, but the majority seem willing to accept that.[/quote]

Norway…sheesh. That’s why I thank God I live in America. [/quote]

Yes, thank god we live in america, where thousands of people are homeless. yes, america is so great. We help other countries, yet let all the homeless people live on the streets. Why on earth would anyone want to live in a country where all people have a place to live, regardless if they work or not. Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Unfortunately, “my country” has no money so in order to “help” it uses mine.

272

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Of course things can happen. That’s why people should put a little money aside and prepare for emergencies. That way a simple job loss doesn’t force you on the streets. It’s called personal responsibility.

273

I don’t thing personal responsibility is politically correct anymore ^^^

274

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Of course things can happen. That’s why people should put a little money aside and prepare for emergencies. That way a simple job loss doesn’t force you on the streets. It’s called personal responsibility.[/quote]

I will agree with you mostly in principle; however, bad things happen to good people who don’t deserve it. What about a low income man boen into poverty trying to claw his way out as he grows up, or after he grows up? He has no safety net because all his assets are going to try and keep him fed and housed. There’s no way he can save up enough to last more than a small bit of job loss. So what happens when his job gets cut because of a falling economy?

Look, I am as pissed as anybody at these wackos who think that they should be able to live on welfare for the rest of their life. But as much as I am solidly conservative on this issue, I really think most people with that cut-and-dried attitude you displayed in this post have lived a far too sheltered life. I have friends in sorry ass situations that they tried to avoid every way possible. They never partied, they never spent money they didn’t have, but they still got fucked.

275

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Of course things can happen. That’s why people should put a little money aside and prepare for emergencies. That way a simple job loss doesn’t force you on the streets. It’s called personal responsibility.[/quote]

I will agree with you mostly in principle; however, bad things happen to good people who don’t deserve it. What about a low income man boen into poverty trying to claw his way out as he grows up, or after he grows up? He has no safety net because all his assets are going to try and keep him fed and housed. There’s no way he can save up enough to last more than a small bit of job loss. So what happens when his job gets cut because of a falling economy?

Look, I am as pissed as anybody at these wackos who think that they should be able to live on welfare for the rest of their life. But as much as I am solidly conservative on this issue, I really think most people with that cut-and-dried attitude you displayed in this post have lived a far too sheltered life. I have friends in sorry ass situations that they tried to avoid every way possible. They never partied, they never spent money they didn’t have, but they still got fucked.[/quote]

My mother lost both parents in the war, got raised by her evil, evil relatives, was used to getting up at 4 and cleaning the pig sty before she milked the cows before she was 7 years old, could not get a decent education because nobody would pay for it, cleaned the toilets and bathrooms in a nunnery in order to get the little education she had, then she married and was left by her husband, my father, with two little kids, no formal education and an employer that chose this very unwelcome time to go bancrupt.

And yet, 5 years later she ran the office of a tax consulting firm and made about twice the average Austrian salary.

Right now, she is studying history after having finished her high school diploma.

So

a) please spare me the “you dont know true hardship” shtick

b) dont tell me that you cant make it, you can if you work your ass off

c) yeah well, who do you think will get fired first in your hypothetical example, if taxes rise because people need to support this poor bastard?

Thats right, people that are in a similar position he was in before he lost his job.

and finally

d) life sucks, it fucks everyone, get a fucking helmet.

276

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Of course things can happen. That’s why people should put a little money aside and prepare for emergencies. That way a simple job loss doesn’t force you on the streets. It’s called personal responsibility.[/quote]

I will agree with you mostly in principle; however, bad things happen to good people who don’t deserve it. What about a low income man boen into poverty trying to claw his way out as he grows up, or after he grows up? He has no safety net because all his assets are going to try and keep him fed and housed. There’s no way he can save up enough to last more than a small bit of job loss. So what happens when his job gets cut because of a falling economy?

Look, I am as pissed as anybody at these wackos who think that they should be able to live on welfare for the rest of their life. But as much as I am solidly conservative on this issue, I really think most people with that cut-and-dried attitude you displayed in this post have lived a far too sheltered life. I have friends in sorry ass situations that they tried to avoid every way possible. They never partied, they never spent money they didn’t have, but they still got fucked.[/quote]

Of course bad things happen to good people. I’m sorry it happens, but that’s life. My attitude isn’t as cut and dry and I’ve displayed here, but it’s the only attitude I’m going to show when all I ever hear are the whoa-is-me-I-don’t-deserve-this tales of exception that people want to prove the rule. The truth is most people’s bad situations could be avoided with a little planning and personal responsibility.

You did say “most people” and may not be specifically referring to me, I bolded the above because I’ve lived a far from sheltered life. I’ve written on this site in the past about my childhood and my welfare-loving, whore of a mom. In addition to that, I’ve also written about the time eight years ago when I was homeless sleeping in a park. I guess the difference between me and the others is I didn’t sit around and mope and blame others for my situation (at least not for an extended period of time).

The thing that gets me is it’s not hard to set up an emergency fund and plan for bad things. I make less than $28000 a year and I still have enough saved where I could lose my job tomorrow and be fine for close to 4 months. (And I wouldn’t need near that amount of time to replace a job at my income level.) I’m also in school trying to finish my degree. It’s going to take me close to eight years to finally finish, but hey, that’s life. I live very comfortably within my means and I’m happy. So, my attitude may appear to be a little too cut and dry for some, but it’s not from being too sheltered. It’s from knowing firsthand how to improve your situation and watching everyone else fuck it up and blame others.

277

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Of course things can happen. That’s why people should put a little money aside and prepare for emergencies. That way a simple job loss doesn’t force you on the streets. It’s called personal responsibility.[/quote]

I will agree with you mostly in principle; however, bad things happen to good people who don’t deserve it. What about a low income man boen into poverty trying to claw his way out as he grows up, or after he grows up? He has no safety net because all his assets are going to try and keep him fed and housed. There’s no way he can save up enough to last more than a small bit of job loss. So what happens when his job gets cut because of a falling economy?

Look, I am as pissed as anybody at these wackos who think that they should be able to live on welfare for the rest of their life. But as much as I am solidly conservative on this issue, I really think most people with that cut-and-dried attitude you displayed in this post have lived a far too sheltered life. I have friends in sorry ass situations that they tried to avoid every way possible. They never partied, they never spent money they didn’t have, but they still got fucked.[/quote]

My mother lost both parents in the war, got raised by her evil, evil relatives, was used to getting up at 4 and cleaning the pig sty before she milked the cows before she was 7 years old, could not get a decent education because nobody would pay for it, cleaned the toilets and bathrooms in a nunnery in order to get the little education she had, then she married and was left by her husband, my father, with two little kids, no formal education and an employer that chose this very unwelcome time to go bancrupt.

And yet, 5 years later she ran the office of a tax consulting firm and made about twice the average Austrian salary.

Right now, she is studying history after having finished her high school diploma.

So

a) please spare me the “you dont know true hardship” shtick

b) dont tell me that you cant make it, you can if you work your ass off

c) yeah well, who do you think will get fired first in your hypothetical example, if taxes rise because people need to support this poor bastard?

Thats right, people that are in a similar position he was in before he lost his job.

and finally

d) life sucks, it fucks everyone, get a fucking helmet. [/quote]

Hahaha. I musta touched a nerve!

A) it’s not a schtick. It’s my observation after being around people that got their shit kicked in, like your mother. I had a pretty decent family life growing up, I don’t pretend to have firsthand knowledge from personal experience. But I do have friends who are in tight places, theough no fault of their own, and it made me think a lot. God forbid something else goes down and they lose the ability to pay their bills and then lose their homes and apartments. And before you go shoutimg about using tax money, YES I would give them a place to stay and eat. I have already done that before and I would do it again. But hey, I can’t be around all the time to help. Maybe they’re out of state and I don’t even know about it.

B) I never, in any way at all, stated that people couldn’t still make it through hard work. I believe they can. However, I also know everybody fucks up, because it is human nature, and I don’t think that an honest hardworking person should have to go through an entire life clawing like your mother had to if they can be thrown a break. Industrious people turn a break to their advantage and use it to get ahead. Deadbeats live off the charity.

C) How do you expect someone to get their education if they can’t pay bills first? Of course they’re going to get laid off first. That doesn’t mean they’re not trying to claw their way up like youe mother succeeded in doing.

D) Of course life hits everybody hard, captain obvious. Thanks for the fucking news bullitin.

E) I explicitly stated that I despised people that live off of welfare for long peripds of time, or the majority of their lives, and you obviously do as well. How much money do you think could be saved by dumping the deadbeats off after a certain amount of time on welfare? Billions. if the welfare system were to be there for hardworking people like your mother for emergency use on a set period of time, we’d still save billions over the current deadbeat laden system. The tax burden isn’t so linear, and you know damned well that the economic crisis wasn’t precipitated by welfare load affecting tax burden.

So you can take your strawman and shove it up that extraordinarily uptight ass of yours.

278

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Things can happen. what happens if you lose your job and you have kids. what, you have to live in the streets with your kids? your country should provide for you. [/quote]

Of course things can happen. That’s why people should put a little money aside and prepare for emergencies. That way a simple job loss doesn’t force you on the streets. It’s called personal responsibility.[/quote]

I will agree with you mostly in principle; however, bad things happen to good people who don’t deserve it. What about a low income man boen into poverty trying to claw his way out as he grows up, or after he grows up? He has no safety net because all his assets are going to try and keep him fed and housed. There’s no way he can save up enough to last more than a small bit of job loss. So what happens when his job gets cut because of a falling economy?

Look, I am as pissed as anybody at these wackos who think that they should be able to live on welfare for the rest of their life. But as much as I am solidly conservative on this issue, I really think most people with that cut-and-dried attitude you displayed in this post have lived a far too sheltered life. I have friends in sorry ass situations that they tried to avoid every way possible. They never partied, they never spent money they didn’t have, but they still got fucked.[/quote]

Of course bad things happen to good people. I’m sorry it happens, but that’s life. My attitude isn’t as cut and dry and I’ve displayed here, but it’s the only attitude I’m going to show when all I ever hear are the whoa-is-me-I-don’t-deserve-this tales of exception that people want to prove the rule. The truth is most people’s bad situations could be avoided with a little planning and personal responsibility.

You did say “most people” and may not be specifically referring to me, I bolded the above because I’ve lived a far from sheltered life. I’ve written on this site in the past about my childhood and my welfare-loving, whore of a mom. In addition to that, I’ve also written about the time eight years ago when I was homeless sleeping in a park. I guess the difference between me and the others is I didn’t sit around and mope and blame others for my situation (at least not for an extended period of time).

The thing that gets me is it’s not hard to set up an emergency fund and plan for bad things. I make less than $28000 a year and I still have enough saved where I could lose my job tomorrow and be fine for close to 4 months. (And I wouldn’t need near that amount of time to replace a job at my income level.) I’m also in school trying to finish my degree. It’s going to take me close to eight years to finally finish, but hey, that’s life. I live very comfortably within my means and I’m happy. So, my attitude may appear to be a little too cut and dry for some, but it’s not from being too sheltered. It’s from knowing firsthand how to improve your situation and watching everyone else fuck it up and blame others.[/quote]

Well, I agree with pretty much most things in your post. I was not aware of your personal past in the matter. I also was not using that bolded part to refer specifically to you–i was merely using your written position as an example. You have lived it, and no doubt there are more nuances than you let on in your posts regarding the subject. That’s fine, and that’s one of the reasons I tried to hedge–text, specifically on the internet, can be misinterpreted rather easily and lacks tone of voice. I’d also like to say that I am not attempting to use an exception to prove the rule, although it may appear that way to you. I tend to believe much as you do, as I mentioned earlier, and live within my means as well.

$28000 is significantly more than the person I had in mind while writing makes, which means that they no longer have a feasible way to save + survive at the moment. They have gotten a couple breaks from people around here and are now getting on their feet and getting ready to
complete their degree. They’re like you, but I don’t agree with an absolute ban on welfare. I DO agree with a significant restriction, reform, and change of it–however if they had not had myself and a couple others around, they could have been facing homelessness as well.

279

Lemme see… A right (jn the political sense) is defined by the obligations it imposes upon others. This is distinctly different from the notion of a birthright, which is an inherent privilege. I would argue that a lot of the debate focuses on confusion between these terms, some intentional, some not. Rights are negotiated in the body politic. Inherent privileges are not and are almost the exact opposite of a right in this sense.

So let’s take healthcare. Do you have a right to that? Political rights means you must strike a balance with your fellow citizens over what constitutes a mutually agreeable balance. The limit of democracy is what we can agree on, so it we can’t reach an agreement (say because there is no clear cut solution and hence no consensus) then we can’t do much. This is a safeguard (still the most basic and effective) against having a minority take over.

A birthright to it means everyone is obligated to support you, regardless of the cost. The latter case is just a variation on the authoritarian theme of divine right, which very curiously is an almost exclusive property of left-wing politics these days.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj

280

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Lemme see… A right (jn the political sense) is defined by the obligations it imposes upon others. This is distinctly different from the notion of a birthright, which is an inherent privilege. I would argue that a lot of the debate focuses on confusion between these terms, some intentional, some not. Rights are negotiated in the body politic. Inherent privileges are not and are almost the exact opposite of a right in this sense.

So let’s take healthcare. Do you have a right to that? Political rights means you must strike a balance with your fellow citizens over what constitutes a mutually agreeable balance. The limit of democracy is what we can agree on, so it we can’t reach an agreement (say because there is no clear cut solution and hence no consensus) then we can’t do much. This is a safeguard (still the most basic and effective) against having a minority take over.

A birthright to it means everyone is obligated to support you, regardless of the cost. The latter case is just a variation on the authoritarian theme of divine right, which very curiously is an almost exclusive property of left-wing politics these days.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj[/quote]

Try this instead: http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/politics/rights/2005-rights-vs-wishes.html