[quote]Jeff R wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Jeff R wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
This condoning of violence is absolutely mind-boggling. There are at least a dozen states that have already filed lawsuits to block the HC bill and the GOP has forced Congress to re-examine the reconciliation bill, or something along those lines. There are people who are managing to protest loudly and are getting the attention of the govt without resorting to violence. THIS is how the American political process works.
Killing people because they don’t have the same political views and then calling it a defense of your civil liberties is more akin to how shit gets done in the Middle East. If these taxes are a violation of your civil liberties, then why haven’t the same who advocate it now been advocating it this entire time against ALL taxes? Why this tax and why now?
If those who support violence want to call me a pussy or disillusioned or idealistic or whatever, fine. I can certainly handle it. But don’t try to make me believe that the actions of those who threatened violence against these legislators are acting in the spirit of America. [/quote]
db,
I advocate a political solution. Win at the ballot box. Remove pelosi/obama/reid and their minions at the ballot box.
I want you to think through why this is a different. Let me help: It was passed using corruption against the stated wishes of the majority of the United States. Further, it forces you to buy a product.
The implications of that is mind-blowing. Next crisis, what’s next? Forcing us to buy Chrysler so that it doesn’t go under?
If the Government can force us to buy one product, why not another?
JeffR[/quote]
Obama received more votes than any other Presidential candidate ever. He defeated McCain by a wide margin. He ran on the explicit platform of universal healthcare. As ornamental as the changes are, there were changes to the bill to try to appease the opposition to it in a way. And I’m supposed to believe that this bill is so far removed from the wishes of the people that violence is justified?
And I’ll say this as well. I believe that the private sector is best equipped to enact social change, not the “coercive” way the govt does so. And I’m sure those who protest so vociferously against healthcare reform would agree. That being said, I donate a LOT of my time: I’ve been a volunteer coach for baseball teams of all ages, I donate regularly to the Salvation Army, my friend’s restaurant I mentioned earlier? I go there everyday and bring the day-old pastries down to a homeless shelter. I go to the county jail once or twice a month and work with inmates interested in the program of AA. I work with young adults whose lives have become destroyed by their alcoholism/addiction. I volunteer my time at foster children facilities. I go to a hospital once a week and pick up some real downtrodden people going through severe drug/alcohol withdrawals and I buy them dinner and take them to AA meetings. I don’t make a ton of money and I don’t ask to be reimbursed for any of this. I’m on the front lives representing the private sector all the time.
Are those who rant against taxes doing the same? Are those who rant against taxes and who believe in the private sector’s ability to enact social improvements going out there and doing so? I don’t think so, not enough of them are anyways. If you can answer yes to those questions, then fine. But I highly doubt anyone who would answer yes to those questions would turn around and advocate violence. I see what violence does to Americans; I see kids who come from horrific homes, abusive mothers and fathers, addicts, whores, deadbeats and so on. Some of these kids pull themselves up all by themselves, but a lot of them can’t. That’s where people like me come in. But it’s not enough. I’ve never been told “hey, we’ve got it covered next week, don’t worry about it”.
So if the govt wants to enact legislation to help fill this gap and if that makes me a bleeding heart liberal or if I’m living in some fantasyland version of what the govt does with some of our taxes, fine. I can live with that. I can’t live with people acting like violence is justified when they get taxed if they don’t turn around and help the poor and unfortunate with the resources they have. If you don’t give a shit about them, I can clearly see why the jump to violence against politicians isn’t a far one for some.[/quote]
db:
I’m not sure you are able to see the problem here. I’ll be clear here: This is an overreach by a willful majority.
I can’t say it any clearer. You may not like it, but, that is what it is.
You use obama’s election as a mandate for universal health care. I disagree. I know full well most people weren’t listening to him. Many people either didn’t care enough to listen or didn’t want to.
He misread his mandate. His mandate WAS/IS essentially to be the Anti-George W. Bush.
Now that people are paying attention, he’s being told CLEARLY that this is not his mandate.
He chooses not to listen.
Again, I advocate a political solution.
I thank you for your service to the poor. Sincerely.
What about those of us who believe we shouldn’t have this tax burden AND provide similar help to the poor?
How do you pigenhole us?
JeffR
[/quote]
I don’t pigeonhole you at all, because I am the same way. I don’t like taxes any more than you do. I feel that my actions outlined above are a much more effective way to enact change than what the govt does. But the govt can help, and their actions are better than inaction on the part of the private sector.
Look, it’s simple. If you believe that taxation is coercive but you believe that what taxes ostensibly go toward should be funded privately by people, thereby making clear the wishes of the people, fine. But don’t say that and then not contribute privately whatsoever. If you feel that taxation is coercive and that it is up to the downtrodden to pull themselves up all by themselves and you refuse to use any of the time or money that you have to help them, I think that’s wrong.
To those who are against healthcare reform in its current status: what steps have you taken personally to bring about a positive change in the lives of those who need help from others? If the private sector should be doing what the govt is “coercing” us to do, then as a member of the private sector, what have you done? Have you gone down and voluntarily spent time handing out soup at a homeless shelter on Christmas Eve? Have you donated blankets to homeless shelters? Have you helped show drug addicts and alcoholics a path to sobriety? Have you ever bought simple things like coffee beans and mailed them to soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan? Have you donated to charities that support the children and wives of soldiers KIA? Or do you simply not give a shit?
To those who support violence as a means of enacting change: do you support the actions of Che Guevara? John Brown? The Black Panthers? The Weather Underground? What steps have you taken to fight against healthcare reform or other forms of “unfair” taxes and coercion? Have you written letters to your Congressmen/women? Have you written letters to the editors of your local newspapers? Have you organized or participated in any grassroots campaigns against coercion? Have you organized or participated in peaceful protests? Do you refuse to buy the products of companies that donate to politicians that do not represent your beliefs? Or do you simply dismiss this sort of behavior and jump right onto the violence bandwagon and call it the spirit of American revolution?
Remember, our FF’s exhausted all other means of change to no effect before they revolted. Unless you can answer yes to all of the above questions and you have utterly exhausted all other means of change, then and only then can you even begin to equate your actions or the actions you justify with those of our Founding Fathers.