Hardest Thing To Do in Sports

Off Topic
121

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And Flash, you do realize in one breath you say Wilt would be just another “plodding” big man and yet in another you acknowledge his athleticism. Which is it? What’s next? Kareem wouldn’t be a star today either? He was no athletic freak and “he lived on that sky-hook - he had nothing else”.

Let me give you some perspective:

For the 90-91 season the following were centers for their respective teams:

Nuggets: Greg Anderson, Anthony Cook, Blair Rasmussen, Joe Wolf.
Mavericks: James Donaldson, John Shasky, Herb Williams
Timberwolves: Randy Bruuer, Dan Godfread, Tod Murphy, Felton Spencer, Bob Thornton
Magic: Mark Acres, Mark McNamara, Jeff Turner
Rockets: Adrian Caldwell, Dave Feitl, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Smith, Otis Thorpe
Jazz: Thurl Bailey, Mike Brown, Pat Cummings, Mark Eaton, Dan O’Sullivan, Walter Palmer
Spurs: Sidney Green, Dave Greenwood, David Robinson, Dwayne Schintzius

I am not going to do this for the whole league. But that is the entire Midwest Division for the 90-91 season. There are two names out of 30 playing for 2 teams out of 7 where you could make the argument (strenulously I might add) that Wilt might not start - and that is with Olajuwon and Robinson - both of whom are top 50 all time ALONG WITH WILT.

For giggles, I’ll do another conference (WTF I got spare time :slight_smile: ):

Heat: Terry Davis, Alec Kessler, Alan Ogg, Rony Seikaly
Nets: Greg Anderson, Sam Bowie, Chris Dudley, Roy Hinson, Jack Haley
Bullets: Pervis Ellison, Greg Foster, Charles Jones, John Williams
Knicks: Patrick Ewing, Stuart Gray, Jerrod Mustaf, Charles Oakley, Eddie Lee Wilkins
Sixers: Manute Bol, Armen Gilliam, Mike Gminski, Dave Hoppen, Rick Mahorn, Jayson Williams
Celtics: Joe Kleine, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dave Popson, Stojko Vrankovic

Once again, out of an entire division, 6 teams, 29 players, you could make the argument (strenuoously I might add again) that Wilt might not start - with Ewing and Parish and I’m being VERY kind to Parish, but both are top 50 all time along with WILT. Kevin McHale, although listed F/C was not a true Center. And again, it’s 2 teams out of 6 (4 out of 13 total) where you could even start to argue your position.

You will also note that I listed all players listed C or F/C combo.

I trust you won’t ask me to do this for other two divisons, but you can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html if you like and peruse it yourself and do it again for this season. I’m willing to wager you any sum the above trend holds steady for any season, any era, to present.

So, I ask you again, Wilt would not be a star today? Wilt would not be a starter?

Aww shucks. Let’ do this for 2009-2010.

Nets: Tony Battie, Brook Lopez (I’m sure Brook would love to know you think he keeps Wilt from starting :slight_smile: )
Sixers: Primoz Brezec, Samuel Dalembert, Francisco Elson (please don’t tell Sammy that he’s keeping Wilt off the court, he has enough mental issues as it is!)
Knicks: Earl Barron, Eddie Curry, Darko Milicic (Eddie Curry keeping Wilt off the court? Only if it’s a donut eating contest!)
Raptors: Chris Bosh, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O’Bryant (Chris Bosh has average between 7 and 10 rebounds per game for his entire career - HE is not keeping Wilt from starting, he is merely moving to power forward)
Celtics: Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace (Perkins? Wallace? Even Sheed would laugh at the thought he’d take a starting center spot from Wilt. At best, and in his under-achieving prime (he was touted as possibly filling Wilt’s shoes coming out of high school - he was amazing then), Sheed, like Bosh, moves to power forward, Wilt starts).

Now, unlike our 90-91 analysis, wherein you could make the intelligent, although strenuous argument that Wilt has to actually compete for a starting position on 4 teams out of 13 sampled, we cannot even make that argument (an intelligent one) for 2010 in the entire Atlantic Division!

Seriously Flash, would you like to reconsider some of your statements??

[/quote]

No, I wouldn’t. Wilt was athletic FOR HIS TIME. By todays standards he’d be below average, and his best shot was a reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out. He’s not getting that shot consistently against today’s average center. Everything Wilt had going for him would be COMPLETELY nullified in todays game.

Look at how he did against others his size. Just in case you don’t have time, I’ll tell you: not well. He dominated in an era of 6’7" cenetrs and rules where the game was in it’s foramtive stages. With the speed, strength and athletitcism of todays [post] players he’d be in over his head out there.[/quote]

Right. Because a guy like that could never learn new moves or adjust. Because it never occurred to you that he finger rolled because he could, not because that was what he was limited to. Yeah. You obviously did not look at and consider that list of centers.

Shit, the list from 91 I don’t recognize half of them and that’s the year I tried out. What you’re saying here is so patently outrageous it’s beyond the pale. I have a challenge - find me a single qualified opinion that says Wilt would not start today - someone attached to the NBA game for at least 20 years by employment or experience.

122

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
To continue with BodyGuard’s posts on post play, the footwork is def basic. The only reason it may seem difficult when you watch is because 7+ ft’ers generally lack the same fluidity, coordination of which everyone else onthe court has tons.

KG has McHale himself to thank for his footwork and Duncan is considered the best PF ever because of his footwork (and defense) and up until this year, it was a fair knock on Dwight Howard that he hadn’t put in the work to get more comfortable on the block. Finally, he’s arrived offensively.

Its also why Jordan became so devastating on the low block so quickly (and consequently Kobe Bryant as well)
[/quote]

Dwight Howard has not “arrived offensively”. He’s as mechanical and predictable as ever, only now he’s actually trying 12 footers off the glass. He still misses 'em 2/3 of the time. He’s a taller Kevin Willis with longer arms, nothing more. If he played in the 90’s he’d be a backup. He’s putting up decent stats in a center-less league. If he had to contend with the Olajuwon’s, Robinson’s, Ewing’s and Shaq’s of the 90’s he’d get murdered.[/quote]

Cmon man…a back-up? Seriously? Again, list the centers for each team in the league that would have rendered Howard a back-up. Howard would be a starter in any era to present. You are seriously over-estimating the number of skilled centers in the league at any given time. [/quote]

Back-up might also have been hyperbolic, but his numbers would be way down from where they are. He has trouble scoring the ball against todays centers, and if he has to fight against Olajuwon or Ewing for all those rebounds his numbers get fractioned. He’s not getting all those backdoor lobs or tip-dunks, and he has absolutely no offensive moves [outside of a decent left hand]. He is Kevin Willis 2.0, just taller with longer arms.[/quote]

Your statements are outrageously uninformed. Kevin Willis 2.0? You just lost all credibility in this argument.

123

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
To continue with BodyGuard’s posts on post play, the footwork is def basic. The only reason it may seem difficult when you watch is because 7+ ft’ers generally lack the same fluidity, coordination of which everyone else onthe court has tons.

KG has McHale himself to thank for his footwork and Duncan is considered the best PF ever because of his footwork (and defense) and up until this year, it was a fair knock on Dwight Howard that he hadn’t put in the work to get more comfortable on the block. Finally, he’s arrived offensively.

Its also why Jordan became so devastating on the low block so quickly (and consequently Kobe Bryant as well)
[/quote]

Dwight Howard has not “arrived offensively”. He’s as mechanical and predictable as ever, only now he’s actually trying 12 footers off the glass. He still misses 'em 2/3 of the time. He’s a taller Kevin Willis with longer arms, nothing more. If he played in the 90’s he’d be a backup. He’s putting up decent stats in a center-less league. If he had to contend with the Olajuwon’s, Robinson’s, Ewing’s and Shaq’s of the 90’s he’d get murdered.[/quote]

Cmon man…a back-up? Seriously? Again, list the centers for each team in the league that would have rendered Howard a back-up. Howard would be a starter in any era to present. You are seriously over-estimating the number of skilled centers in the league at any given time. [/quote]

Back-up might also have been hyperbolic, but his numbers would be way down from where they are. He has trouble scoring the ball against todays centers, and if he has to fight against Olajuwon or Ewing for all those rebounds his numbers get fractioned. He’s not getting all those backdoor lobs or tip-dunks, and he has absolutely no offensive moves [outside of a decent left hand]. He is Kevin Willis 2.0, just taller with longer arms.[/quote]

I thought you meant Wilt in my prior comments. I don’t have much an opinion on Howard other than he starts today, and would start in 91 and put up similar numbers for the season. He may not “have his way” with Ewing, et als., but he’s still a big rebounder in any era.

124

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
To continue with BodyGuard’s posts on post play, the footwork is def basic. The only reason it may seem difficult when you watch is because 7+ ft’ers generally lack the same fluidity, coordination of which everyone else onthe court has tons.

KG has McHale himself to thank for his footwork and Duncan is considered the best PF ever because of his footwork (and defense) and up until this year, it was a fair knock on Dwight Howard that he hadn’t put in the work to get more comfortable on the block. Finally, he’s arrived offensively.

Its also why Jordan became so devastating on the low block so quickly (and consequently Kobe Bryant as well)
[/quote]

Dwight Howard has not “arrived offensively”. He’s as mechanical and predictable as ever, only now he’s actually trying 12 footers off the glass. He still misses 'em 2/3 of the time. He’s a taller Kevin Willis with longer arms, nothing more. If he played in the 90’s he’d be a backup. He’s putting up decent stats in a center-less league. If he had to contend with the Olajuwon’s, Robinson’s, Ewing’s and Shaq’s of the 90’s he’d get murdered.[/quote]

Cmon man…a back-up? Seriously? Again, list the centers for each team in the league that would have rendered Howard a back-up. Howard would be a starter in any era to present. You are seriously over-estimating the number of skilled centers in the league at any given time. [/quote]

Back-up might also have been hyperbolic, but his numbers would be way down from where they are. He has trouble scoring the ball against todays centers, and if he has to fight against Olajuwon or Ewing for all those rebounds his numbers get fractioned. He’s not getting all those backdoor lobs or tip-dunks, and he has absolutely no offensive moves [outside of a decent left hand]. He is Kevin Willis 2.0, just taller with longer arms.[/quote]

I thought you meant Wilt in my prior comments. I don’t have much an opinion on Howard other than he starts today, and would start in 91 and put up similar numbers for the season. He may not “have his way” with Ewing, et als., but he’s still a big rebounder in any era. [/quote]

Maybe, but he’s not getting near 20 a game. I also don’t know if he’d be a center. Guys like Olajuwon or Robinson would have him in foul trouble with 5 to go in the 1st.

125

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And Flash, you do realize in one breath you say Wilt would be just another “plodding” big man and yet in another you acknowledge his athleticism. Which is it? What’s next? Kareem wouldn’t be a star today either? He was no athletic freak and “he lived on that sky-hook - he had nothing else”.

Let me give you some perspective:

For the 90-91 season the following were centers for their respective teams:

Nuggets: Greg Anderson, Anthony Cook, Blair Rasmussen, Joe Wolf.
Mavericks: James Donaldson, John Shasky, Herb Williams
Timberwolves: Randy Bruuer, Dan Godfread, Tod Murphy, Felton Spencer, Bob Thornton
Magic: Mark Acres, Mark McNamara, Jeff Turner
Rockets: Adrian Caldwell, Dave Feitl, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Smith, Otis Thorpe
Jazz: Thurl Bailey, Mike Brown, Pat Cummings, Mark Eaton, Dan O’Sullivan, Walter Palmer
Spurs: Sidney Green, Dave Greenwood, David Robinson, Dwayne Schintzius

I am not going to do this for the whole league. But that is the entire Midwest Division for the 90-91 season. There are two names out of 30 playing for 2 teams out of 7 where you could make the argument (strenulously I might add) that Wilt might not start - and that is with Olajuwon and Robinson - both of whom are top 50 all time ALONG WITH WILT.

For giggles, I’ll do another conference (WTF I got spare time :slight_smile: ):

Heat: Terry Davis, Alec Kessler, Alan Ogg, Rony Seikaly
Nets: Greg Anderson, Sam Bowie, Chris Dudley, Roy Hinson, Jack Haley
Bullets: Pervis Ellison, Greg Foster, Charles Jones, John Williams
Knicks: Patrick Ewing, Stuart Gray, Jerrod Mustaf, Charles Oakley, Eddie Lee Wilkins
Sixers: Manute Bol, Armen Gilliam, Mike Gminski, Dave Hoppen, Rick Mahorn, Jayson Williams
Celtics: Joe Kleine, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dave Popson, Stojko Vrankovic

Once again, out of an entire division, 6 teams, 29 players, you could make the argument (strenuoously I might add again) that Wilt might not start - with Ewing and Parish and I’m being VERY kind to Parish, but both are top 50 all time along with WILT. Kevin McHale, although listed F/C was not a true Center. And again, it’s 2 teams out of 6 (4 out of 13 total) where you could even start to argue your position.

You will also note that I listed all players listed C or F/C combo.

I trust you won’t ask me to do this for other two divisons, but you can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html if you like and peruse it yourself and do it again for this season. I’m willing to wager you any sum the above trend holds steady for any season, any era, to present.

So, I ask you again, Wilt would not be a star today? Wilt would not be a starter?

Aww shucks. Let’ do this for 2009-2010.

Nets: Tony Battie, Brook Lopez (I’m sure Brook would love to know you think he keeps Wilt from starting :slight_smile: )
Sixers: Primoz Brezec, Samuel Dalembert, Francisco Elson (please don’t tell Sammy that he’s keeping Wilt off the court, he has enough mental issues as it is!)
Knicks: Earl Barron, Eddie Curry, Darko Milicic (Eddie Curry keeping Wilt off the court? Only if it’s a donut eating contest!)
Raptors: Chris Bosh, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O’Bryant (Chris Bosh has average between 7 and 10 rebounds per game for his entire career - HE is not keeping Wilt from starting, he is merely moving to power forward)
Celtics: Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace (Perkins? Wallace? Even Sheed would laugh at the thought he’d take a starting center spot from Wilt. At best, and in his under-achieving prime (he was touted as possibly filling Wilt’s shoes coming out of high school - he was amazing then), Sheed, like Bosh, moves to power forward, Wilt starts).

Now, unlike our 90-91 analysis, wherein you could make the intelligent, although strenuous argument that Wilt has to actually compete for a starting position on 4 teams out of 13 sampled, we cannot even make that argument (an intelligent one) for 2010 in the entire Atlantic Division!

Seriously Flash, would you like to reconsider some of your statements??

[/quote]

No, I wouldn’t. Wilt was athletic FOR HIS TIME. By todays standards he’d be below average, and his best shot was a reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out. He’s not getting that shot consistently against today’s average center. Everything Wilt had going for him would be COMPLETELY nullified in todays game.

Look at how he did against others his size. Just in case you don’t have time, I’ll tell you: not well. He dominated in an era of 6’7" cenetrs and rules where the game was in it’s foramtive stages. With the speed, strength and athletitcism of todays [post] players he’d be in over his head out there.[/quote]

Right. Because a guy like that could never learn new moves or adjust. Because it never occurred to you that he finger rolled because he could, not because that was what he was limited to. Yeah. You obviously did not look at and consider that list of centers.

Shit, the list from 91 I don’t recognize half of them and that’s the year I tried out. What you’re saying here is so patently outrageous it’s beyond the pale. I have a challenge - find me a single qualified opinion that says Wilt would not start today - someone attached to the NBA game for at least 20 years by employment or experience. [/quote]

Of course I looked at those centers, and of course Wilt could learn new moves. It doesn’t change the fact that he’d be a mediocre athlete by todays standards and never showed any real skill outside of being bigger and stronger than his opposition. In Jordan’s book Jordan adressed Wilt [who was always talking shit about Jordan] and said today he’d be a poor man’s Shaq. This was in the late 90’s, before Wilt died.

126

We will have to agree to disagree.

And MJ is not a credible source. MJ was the biggest shit talker in the league and he was obviously reacting to criticism from Wilt. MJ was a very flawed person with a fantastic marketing and PR movement behind him. If all his flaws were aired, he couldn’t sell peanuts.

127

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree.

And MJ is not a credible source. MJ was the biggest shit talker in the league and he was obviously reacting to criticism from Wilt. MJ was a very flawed person with a fantastic marketing and PR movement behind him. If all his flaws were aired, he couldn’t sell peanuts. [/quote]

Fair enough. However, we do agree on MJ being heavily protected by his PR team and the local and national media. There’s actually a book about some of his shenannigans possibly having led to tragic events that I’d like to read, but don’t remember the name.

128

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree.

And MJ is not a credible source. MJ was the biggest shit talker in the league and he was obviously reacting to criticism from Wilt. MJ was a very flawed person with a fantastic marketing and PR movement behind him. If all his flaws were aired, he couldn’t sell peanuts. [/quote]

Fair enough. However, we do agree on MJ being heavily protected by his PR team and the local and national media. There’s actually a book about some of his shenannigans possibly having led to tragic events that I’d like to read, but don’t remember the name.[/quote]

And when it counted, he knew how to shut the fuck up to the media and let shit blow over, unlike these dunces today (can you say tiger woods news conference?).

129

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree.

And MJ is not a credible source. MJ was the biggest shit talker in the league and he was obviously reacting to criticism from Wilt. MJ was a very flawed person with a fantastic marketing and PR movement behind him. If all his flaws were aired, he couldn’t sell peanuts. [/quote]

Fair enough. However, we do agree on MJ being heavily protected by his PR team and the local and national media. There’s actually a book about some of his shenannigans possibly having led to tragic events that I’d like to read, but don’t remember the name.[/quote]

If you happen to remember the name at some point I’d appreciate it if you shared it. I’ll do some searching for it, as well, as it sounds like an interesting read.

130

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And Flash, you do realize in one breath you say Wilt would be just another “plodding” big man and yet in another you acknowledge his athleticism. Which is it? What’s next? Kareem wouldn’t be a star today either? He was no athletic freak and “he lived on that sky-hook - he had nothing else”.

Let me give you some perspective:

For the 90-91 season the following were centers for their respective teams:

Nuggets: Greg Anderson, Anthony Cook, Blair Rasmussen, Joe Wolf.
Mavericks: James Donaldson, John Shasky, Herb Williams
Timberwolves: Randy Bruuer, Dan Godfread, Tod Murphy, Felton Spencer, Bob Thornton
Magic: Mark Acres, Mark McNamara, Jeff Turner
Rockets: Adrian Caldwell, Dave Feitl, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Smith, Otis Thorpe
Jazz: Thurl Bailey, Mike Brown, Pat Cummings, Mark Eaton, Dan O’Sullivan, Walter Palmer
Spurs: Sidney Green, Dave Greenwood, David Robinson, Dwayne Schintzius

I am not going to do this for the whole league. But that is the entire Midwest Division for the 90-91 season. There are two names out of 30 playing for 2 teams out of 7 where you could make the argument (strenulously I might add) that Wilt might not start - and that is with Olajuwon and Robinson - both of whom are top 50 all time ALONG WITH WILT.

For giggles, I’ll do another conference (WTF I got spare time :slight_smile: ):

Heat: Terry Davis, Alec Kessler, Alan Ogg, Rony Seikaly
Nets: Greg Anderson, Sam Bowie, Chris Dudley, Roy Hinson, Jack Haley
Bullets: Pervis Ellison, Greg Foster, Charles Jones, John Williams
Knicks: Patrick Ewing, Stuart Gray, Jerrod Mustaf, Charles Oakley, Eddie Lee Wilkins
Sixers: Manute Bol, Armen Gilliam, Mike Gminski, Dave Hoppen, Rick Mahorn, Jayson Williams
Celtics: Joe Kleine, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dave Popson, Stojko Vrankovic

Once again, out of an entire division, 6 teams, 29 players, you could make the argument (strenuoously I might add again) that Wilt might not start - with Ewing and Parish and I’m being VERY kind to Parish, but both are top 50 all time along with WILT. Kevin McHale, although listed F/C was not a true Center. And again, it’s 2 teams out of 6 (4 out of 13 total) where you could even start to argue your position.

You will also note that I listed all players listed C or F/C combo.

I trust you won’t ask me to do this for other two divisons, but you can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html if you like and peruse it yourself and do it again for this season. I’m willing to wager you any sum the above trend holds steady for any season, any era, to present.

So, I ask you again, Wilt would not be a star today? Wilt would not be a starter?

Aww shucks. Let’ do this for 2009-2010.

Nets: Tony Battie, Brook Lopez (I’m sure Brook would love to know you think he keeps Wilt from starting :slight_smile: )
Sixers: Primoz Brezec, Samuel Dalembert, Francisco Elson (please don’t tell Sammy that he’s keeping Wilt off the court, he has enough mental issues as it is!)
Knicks: Earl Barron, Eddie Curry, Darko Milicic (Eddie Curry keeping Wilt off the court? Only if it’s a donut eating contest!)
Raptors: Chris Bosh, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O’Bryant (Chris Bosh has average between 7 and 10 rebounds per game for his entire career - HE is not keeping Wilt from starting, he is merely moving to power forward)
Celtics: Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace (Perkins? Wallace? Even Sheed would laugh at the thought he’d take a starting center spot from Wilt. At best, and in his under-achieving prime (he was touted as possibly filling Wilt’s shoes coming out of high school - he was amazing then), Sheed, like Bosh, moves to power forward, Wilt starts).

Now, unlike our 90-91 analysis, wherein you could make the intelligent, although strenuous argument that Wilt has to actually compete for a starting position on 4 teams out of 13 sampled, we cannot even make that argument (an intelligent one) for 2010 in the entire Atlantic Division!

Seriously Flash, would you like to reconsider some of your statements??

[/quote]

No, I wouldn’t. Wilt was athletic FOR HIS TIME. By todays standards he’d be below average, and his best shot was a reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out. He’s not getting that shot consistently against today’s average center. Everything Wilt had going for him would be COMPLETELY nullified in todays game.

Look at how he did against others his size. Just in case you don’t have time, I’ll tell you: not well. He dominated in an era of 6’7" cenetrs and rules where the game was in it’s foramtive stages. With the speed, strength and athletitcism of todays [post] players he’d be in over his head out there.[/quote]

Right. Because a guy like that could never learn new moves or adjust. Because it never occurred to you that he finger rolled because he could, not because that was what he was limited to. Yeah. You obviously did not look at and consider that list of centers.

Shit, the list from 91 I don’t recognize half of them and that’s the year I tried out. What you’re saying here is so patently outrageous it’s beyond the pale. I have a challenge - find me a single qualified opinion that says Wilt would not start today - someone attached to the NBA game for at least 20 years by employment or experience. [/quote]
Wilt ran a 4.4 40, and was the big-8 (now big-12) high jump champ. Anyone who says he would have below average athleticism among today’s NBA centers is clearly off his rocker.
Lets not forget, on top of his scoring and rebounding, he also lead the league in assists one year. It’s not like all he could do was a “reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out”.

131

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
To continue with BodyGuard’s posts on post play, the footwork is def basic. The only reason it may seem difficult when you watch is because 7+ ft’ers generally lack the same fluidity, coordination of which everyone else onthe court has tons.

KG has McHale himself to thank for his footwork and Duncan is considered the best PF ever because of his footwork (and defense) and up until this year, it was a fair knock on Dwight Howard that he hadn’t put in the work to get more comfortable on the block. Finally, he’s arrived offensively.

Its also why Jordan became so devastating on the low block so quickly (and consequently Kobe Bryant as well)
[/quote]

Dwight Howard has not “arrived offensively”. He’s as mechanical and predictable as ever, only now he’s actually trying 12 footers off the glass. He still misses 'em 2/3 of the time. He’s a taller Kevin Willis with longer arms, nothing more. If he played in the 90’s he’d be a backup. He’s putting up decent stats in a center-less league. If he had to contend with the Olajuwon’s, Robinson’s, Ewing’s and Shaq’s of the 90’s he’d get murdered.[/quote]

Cmon man…a back-up? Seriously? Again, list the centers for each team in the league that would have rendered Howard a back-up. Howard would be a starter in any era to present. You are seriously over-estimating the number of skilled centers in the league at any given time. [/quote]

Back-up might also have been hyperbolic, but his numbers would be way down from where they are. He has trouble scoring the ball against todays centers, and if he has to fight against Olajuwon or Ewing for all those rebounds his numbers get fractioned. He’s not getting all those backdoor lobs or tip-dunks, and he has absolutely no offensive moves [outside of a decent left hand]. He is Kevin Willis 2.0, just taller with longer arms.[/quote]
Howard is averaging 23 points a game (#10 in the league) while shooting 59% from the field. How can you call that “trouble scoring the ball against todays centers”?

132

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And Flash, you do realize in one breath you say Wilt would be just another “plodding” big man and yet in another you acknowledge his athleticism. Which is it? What’s next? Kareem wouldn’t be a star today either? He was no athletic freak and “he lived on that sky-hook - he had nothing else”.

Let me give you some perspective:

For the 90-91 season the following were centers for their respective teams:

Nuggets: Greg Anderson, Anthony Cook, Blair Rasmussen, Joe Wolf.
Mavericks: James Donaldson, John Shasky, Herb Williams
Timberwolves: Randy Bruuer, Dan Godfread, Tod Murphy, Felton Spencer, Bob Thornton
Magic: Mark Acres, Mark McNamara, Jeff Turner
Rockets: Adrian Caldwell, Dave Feitl, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Smith, Otis Thorpe
Jazz: Thurl Bailey, Mike Brown, Pat Cummings, Mark Eaton, Dan O’Sullivan, Walter Palmer
Spurs: Sidney Green, Dave Greenwood, David Robinson, Dwayne Schintzius

I am not going to do this for the whole league. But that is the entire Midwest Division for the 90-91 season. There are two names out of 30 playing for 2 teams out of 7 where you could make the argument (strenulously I might add) that Wilt might not start - and that is with Olajuwon and Robinson - both of whom are top 50 all time ALONG WITH WILT.

For giggles, I’ll do another conference (WTF I got spare time :slight_smile: ):

Heat: Terry Davis, Alec Kessler, Alan Ogg, Rony Seikaly
Nets: Greg Anderson, Sam Bowie, Chris Dudley, Roy Hinson, Jack Haley
Bullets: Pervis Ellison, Greg Foster, Charles Jones, John Williams
Knicks: Patrick Ewing, Stuart Gray, Jerrod Mustaf, Charles Oakley, Eddie Lee Wilkins
Sixers: Manute Bol, Armen Gilliam, Mike Gminski, Dave Hoppen, Rick Mahorn, Jayson Williams
Celtics: Joe Kleine, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dave Popson, Stojko Vrankovic

Once again, out of an entire division, 6 teams, 29 players, you could make the argument (strenuoously I might add again) that Wilt might not start - with Ewing and Parish and I’m being VERY kind to Parish, but both are top 50 all time along with WILT. Kevin McHale, although listed F/C was not a true Center. And again, it’s 2 teams out of 6 (4 out of 13 total) where you could even start to argue your position.

You will also note that I listed all players listed C or F/C combo.

I trust you won’t ask me to do this for other two divisons, but you can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html if you like and peruse it yourself and do it again for this season. I’m willing to wager you any sum the above trend holds steady for any season, any era, to present.

So, I ask you again, Wilt would not be a star today? Wilt would not be a starter?

Aww shucks. Let’ do this for 2009-2010.

Nets: Tony Battie, Brook Lopez (I’m sure Brook would love to know you think he keeps Wilt from starting :slight_smile: )
Sixers: Primoz Brezec, Samuel Dalembert, Francisco Elson (please don’t tell Sammy that he’s keeping Wilt off the court, he has enough mental issues as it is!)
Knicks: Earl Barron, Eddie Curry, Darko Milicic (Eddie Curry keeping Wilt off the court? Only if it’s a donut eating contest!)
Raptors: Chris Bosh, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O’Bryant (Chris Bosh has average between 7 and 10 rebounds per game for his entire career - HE is not keeping Wilt from starting, he is merely moving to power forward)
Celtics: Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace (Perkins? Wallace? Even Sheed would laugh at the thought he’d take a starting center spot from Wilt. At best, and in his under-achieving prime (he was touted as possibly filling Wilt’s shoes coming out of high school - he was amazing then), Sheed, like Bosh, moves to power forward, Wilt starts).

Now, unlike our 90-91 analysis, wherein you could make the intelligent, although strenuous argument that Wilt has to actually compete for a starting position on 4 teams out of 13 sampled, we cannot even make that argument (an intelligent one) for 2010 in the entire Atlantic Division!

Seriously Flash, would you like to reconsider some of your statements??

[/quote]

No, I wouldn’t. Wilt was athletic FOR HIS TIME. By todays standards he’d be below average, and his best shot was a reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out. He’s not getting that shot consistently against today’s average center. Everything Wilt had going for him would be COMPLETELY nullified in todays game.

Look at how he did against others his size. Just in case you don’t have time, I’ll tell you: not well. He dominated in an era of 6’7" cenetrs and rules where the game was in it’s foramtive stages. With the speed, strength and athletitcism of todays [post] players he’d be in over his head out there.[/quote]

Right. Because a guy like that could never learn new moves or adjust. Because it never occurred to you that he finger rolled because he could, not because that was what he was limited to. Yeah. You obviously did not look at and consider that list of centers.

Shit, the list from 91 I don’t recognize half of them and that’s the year I tried out. What you’re saying here is so patently outrageous it’s beyond the pale. I have a challenge - find me a single qualified opinion that says Wilt would not start today - someone attached to the NBA game for at least 20 years by employment or experience. [/quote]
Wilt ran a 4.4 40, and was the big-8 (now big-12) high jump champ. Anyone who says he would have below average athleticism among today’s NBA centers is clearly off his rocker.
Lets not forget, on top of his scoring and rebounding, he also lead the league in assists one year. It’s not like all he could do was a “reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out”.[/quote]

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.

133

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
To continue with BodyGuard’s posts on post play, the footwork is def basic. The only reason it may seem difficult when you watch is because 7+ ft’ers generally lack the same fluidity, coordination of which everyone else onthe court has tons.

KG has McHale himself to thank for his footwork and Duncan is considered the best PF ever because of his footwork (and defense) and up until this year, it was a fair knock on Dwight Howard that he hadn’t put in the work to get more comfortable on the block. Finally, he’s arrived offensively.

Its also why Jordan became so devastating on the low block so quickly (and consequently Kobe Bryant as well)
[/quote]

Dwight Howard has not “arrived offensively”. He’s as mechanical and predictable as ever, only now he’s actually trying 12 footers off the glass. He still misses 'em 2/3 of the time. He’s a taller Kevin Willis with longer arms, nothing more. If he played in the 90’s he’d be a backup. He’s putting up decent stats in a center-less league. If he had to contend with the Olajuwon’s, Robinson’s, Ewing’s and Shaq’s of the 90’s he’d get murdered.[/quote]

Cmon man…a back-up? Seriously? Again, list the centers for each team in the league that would have rendered Howard a back-up. Howard would be a starter in any era to present. You are seriously over-estimating the number of skilled centers in the league at any given time. [/quote]

Back-up might also have been hyperbolic, but his numbers would be way down from where they are. He has trouble scoring the ball against todays centers, and if he has to fight against Olajuwon or Ewing for all those rebounds his numbers get fractioned. He’s not getting all those backdoor lobs or tip-dunks, and he has absolutely no offensive moves [outside of a decent left hand]. He is Kevin Willis 2.0, just taller with longer arms.[/quote]
Howard is averaging 23 points a game (#10 in the league) while shooting 59% from the field. How can you call that “trouble scoring the ball against todays centers”?
[/quote]

And he’s doing it off of lobs, offensive boards and wide open shots from 5ft and in. He has one of the most mechanical and awkward offensive games in the league. He’s also allowed to get away with offensive fouling constantly due to him being one of the faces of the league.

134

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.[/quote]

Out of curiosity, I had to look up the high jump stat. They only listed one of the years that he won it at 6’6". My teammate on the track team jumped 6’10 when I was in high school 15 years ago. Damn they sucked at jumping back then lol.

135

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.[/quote]

Out of curiosity, I had to look up the high jump stat. They only listed one of the years that he won it at 6’6". My teammate on the track team jumped 6’10 when I was in high school 15 years ago. Damn they sucked at jumping back then lol. [/quote]

That was kind of my point. Not only would Wilt not be on the court today, he wouldn’t be on the track either. Wilt himself claimed a lot of pretty out there shit, yet none of it was ever proven. I have an OLD NBA book where Nate Thurmond basically calls Wilt a pathological liar, haha.

136

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.[/quote]

Out of curiosity, I had to look up the high jump stat. They only listed one of the years that he won it at 6’6". My teammate on the track team jumped 6’10 when I was in high school 15 years ago. Damn they sucked at jumping back then lol. [/quote]

Was the Fosberry Flop invented by then?

137

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And Flash, you do realize in one breath you say Wilt would be just another “plodding” big man and yet in another you acknowledge his athleticism. Which is it? What’s next? Kareem wouldn’t be a star today either? He was no athletic freak and “he lived on that sky-hook - he had nothing else”.

Let me give you some perspective:

For the 90-91 season the following were centers for their respective teams:

Nuggets: Greg Anderson, Anthony Cook, Blair Rasmussen, Joe Wolf.
Mavericks: James Donaldson, John Shasky, Herb Williams
Timberwolves: Randy Bruuer, Dan Godfread, Tod Murphy, Felton Spencer, Bob Thornton
Magic: Mark Acres, Mark McNamara, Jeff Turner
Rockets: Adrian Caldwell, Dave Feitl, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Smith, Otis Thorpe
Jazz: Thurl Bailey, Mike Brown, Pat Cummings, Mark Eaton, Dan O’Sullivan, Walter Palmer
Spurs: Sidney Green, Dave Greenwood, David Robinson, Dwayne Schintzius

I am not going to do this for the whole league. But that is the entire Midwest Division for the 90-91 season. There are two names out of 30 playing for 2 teams out of 7 where you could make the argument (strenulously I might add) that Wilt might not start - and that is with Olajuwon and Robinson - both of whom are top 50 all time ALONG WITH WILT.

For giggles, I’ll do another conference (WTF I got spare time :slight_smile: ):

Heat: Terry Davis, Alec Kessler, Alan Ogg, Rony Seikaly
Nets: Greg Anderson, Sam Bowie, Chris Dudley, Roy Hinson, Jack Haley
Bullets: Pervis Ellison, Greg Foster, Charles Jones, John Williams
Knicks: Patrick Ewing, Stuart Gray, Jerrod Mustaf, Charles Oakley, Eddie Lee Wilkins
Sixers: Manute Bol, Armen Gilliam, Mike Gminski, Dave Hoppen, Rick Mahorn, Jayson Williams
Celtics: Joe Kleine, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dave Popson, Stojko Vrankovic

Once again, out of an entire division, 6 teams, 29 players, you could make the argument (strenuoously I might add again) that Wilt might not start - with Ewing and Parish and I’m being VERY kind to Parish, but both are top 50 all time along with WILT. Kevin McHale, although listed F/C was not a true Center. And again, it’s 2 teams out of 6 (4 out of 13 total) where you could even start to argue your position.

You will also note that I listed all players listed C or F/C combo.

I trust you won’t ask me to do this for other two divisons, but you can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html if you like and peruse it yourself and do it again for this season. I’m willing to wager you any sum the above trend holds steady for any season, any era, to present.

So, I ask you again, Wilt would not be a star today? Wilt would not be a starter?

Aww shucks. Let’ do this for 2009-2010.

Nets: Tony Battie, Brook Lopez (I’m sure Brook would love to know you think he keeps Wilt from starting :slight_smile: )
Sixers: Primoz Brezec, Samuel Dalembert, Francisco Elson (please don’t tell Sammy that he’s keeping Wilt off the court, he has enough mental issues as it is!)
Knicks: Earl Barron, Eddie Curry, Darko Milicic (Eddie Curry keeping Wilt off the court? Only if it’s a donut eating contest!)
Raptors: Chris Bosh, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O’Bryant (Chris Bosh has average between 7 and 10 rebounds per game for his entire career - HE is not keeping Wilt from starting, he is merely moving to power forward)
Celtics: Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace (Perkins? Wallace? Even Sheed would laugh at the thought he’d take a starting center spot from Wilt. At best, and in his under-achieving prime (he was touted as possibly filling Wilt’s shoes coming out of high school - he was amazing then), Sheed, like Bosh, moves to power forward, Wilt starts).

Now, unlike our 90-91 analysis, wherein you could make the intelligent, although strenuous argument that Wilt has to actually compete for a starting position on 4 teams out of 13 sampled, we cannot even make that argument (an intelligent one) for 2010 in the entire Atlantic Division!

Seriously Flash, would you like to reconsider some of your statements??

[/quote]

No, I wouldn’t. Wilt was athletic FOR HIS TIME. By todays standards he’d be below average, and his best shot was a reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out. He’s not getting that shot consistently against today’s average center. Everything Wilt had going for him would be COMPLETELY nullified in todays game.

Look at how he did against others his size. Just in case you don’t have time, I’ll tell you: not well. He dominated in an era of 6’7" cenetrs and rules where the game was in it’s foramtive stages. With the speed, strength and athletitcism of todays [post] players he’d be in over his head out there.[/quote]

Right. Because a guy like that could never learn new moves or adjust. Because it never occurred to you that he finger rolled because he could, not because that was what he was limited to. Yeah. You obviously did not look at and consider that list of centers.

Shit, the list from 91 I don’t recognize half of them and that’s the year I tried out. What you’re saying here is so patently outrageous it’s beyond the pale. I have a challenge - find me a single qualified opinion that says Wilt would not start today - someone attached to the NBA game for at least 20 years by employment or experience. [/quote]
Wilt ran a 4.4 40, and was the big-8 (now big-12) high jump champ. Anyone who says he would have below average athleticism among today’s NBA centers is clearly off his rocker.
Lets not forget, on top of his scoring and rebounding, he also lead the league in assists one year. It’s not like all he could do was a “reverse finger roll from 6-8 feet out”.[/quote]

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.[/quote]

Says he ran a 4.4 40. I’m sure it was hand timed, but I doubt any centers today could match that.

138

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.[/quote]

Out of curiosity, I had to look up the high jump stat. They only listed one of the years that he won it at 6’6". My teammate on the track team jumped 6’10 when I was in high school 15 years ago. Damn they sucked at jumping back then lol. [/quote]

Was the Fosberry Flop invented by then?[/quote]
No it wasn’t. Hence the significantly lower jumps.

139

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. I already addressed his high jump career at Kansas, and when you look at his numbers they are not impressive. A lot of Wilt’s physical achievements are greatly overstated to add to his legend. If you truly believe any of that nonsense I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. I’ll cut you a great price.[/quote]

Out of curiosity, I had to look up the high jump stat. They only listed one of the years that he won it at 6’6". My teammate on the track team jumped 6’10 when I was in high school 15 years ago. Damn they sucked at jumping back then lol. [/quote]

That was kind of my point. Not only would Wilt not be on the court today, he wouldn’t be on the track either. Wilt himself claimed a lot of pretty out there shit, yet none of it was ever proven. I have an OLD NBA book where Nate Thurmond basically calls Wilt a pathological liar, haha.
[/quote]
Fail. You should study the history of high jumping a bit more.

140

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You are out of your fucking mind if you think Wilt ran a 4.4. They didn’t even test that in his day, and he played basketball, not football. [/quote]

This maybe an Ocean front Property story but the story I heard was Wilt considered switching to football. He did a private tryout with, I think, the coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. The story was he ran fantastic times and made all kinds of amazing catches. He didn’t sign because they wanted him to play wide receiver. He wanted to play quarter back.