[quote]pat wrote:
We are autonomous of the earth even though we depend on it…If I dropped your ass on venus, you gonna die, fast. [/quote]
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do we have to argue this every couple of weeks? [/quote]
Aren’t we overdue for another gay marriage thread?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The mind is the total collective capabilities of rationality. It is what allows us to reason verses just follow instinctive behavior.
A deer can find water and remember where it is (instinct) but has no concept of thinking to look for another way to the source should there be a landslide that blocks its path, for example. That would require a mind.
You don’t know much about animals, do you?[/quote]
Just clarifying if this was aimed towards me or lift?
[quote]RebornTN wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The mind is the total collective capabilities of rationality. It is what allows us to reason verses just follow instinctive behavior.
A deer can find water and remember where it is (instinct) but has no concept of thinking to look for another way to the source should there be a landslide that blocks its path, for example. That would require a mind.
You don’t know much about animals, do you?
Just clarifying if this was aimed towards me or lift? [/quote]
Whoever says animals don’t have a mind. Animals are not as smart as people but they certainly have the capacity to think and develop emotional attachments.
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion
OP, I hope your friend was just using male bravado as a crutch. Perhaps he was just putting on a public face for a bad situation. He may feel differently once he’s really processed things, and then again, maybe he won’t.
I respect your compassion for another person.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Do we have to argue this every couple of weeks?
Aren’t we overdue for another gay marriage thread?[/quote]
You have got to find other topics to post on, pookie. You have the biggest idiot in the forums on your side on this subject (No. Not me.), and he is making the pro-abortion position look - well - really lifticussy.
I think we all know where you stand wrt abortion, and where life begins. It hasn’t changed at all in the few years, and several hundred threads, you have been stating your position.
So I say this as a faceless, nameless friend: don’t travel with a fool. Take a bus, or take a different path. He’s dragging you down, man.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion
OP, I hope your friend was just using male bravado as a crutch. Perhaps he was just putting on a public face for a bad situation. He may feel differently once he’s really processed things, and then again, maybe he won’t.
I respect your compassion for another person.
[/quote]
Best post in a while.
Makkun
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat wrote:
You are assuming. It can be argued that some animals have minds. There certainly is evidence of rational and reasoning at a low level in some creatures, but it is not knowable.
Sure, for argument’s sake let us make the assumption that dogs have minds, for example. Knowing what the mind is – the collective capabilities of reason – can the mind exist in the womb before an animal has the ability to sense things?
I argue that it cannot form without data. A fetus has the potential to form a mind and that is largely attributed to environment and other nature given factors.[/quote]
No one knows whether a fetus thinks or not. Then, if it does and at some rudimentary level, it is alive. Why do we have a right to murder any living thing, unless its attacking us? (or we are killing for food, of course).
Wouldn’t it be much more logical to assume a fetus is simply a human being at the beginning stages of development? I don’t see why being tabula rasa is grounds for killing.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
[/quote]
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.[/quote]
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
[/quote]
Ever heard of child support?
If the father has no rights during the gestation period of the baby, then why should he all of a sudden be forced to pay for that which you say he lost his right to have a say in?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
Ever heard of child support?
If the father has no rights during the gestation period of the baby, then why should he all of a sudden be forced to pay for that which you say he lost his right to have a say in?
[/quote]
Is there such a thing as ‘in utero’ child support?
I don’t believe there is,but I may be wrong.
If there isn’t then it’s clear that rights and obligations as regard to child support begin at birth,not before.
You cannot lose what you never had.
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
[/quote]
Tell that to a judge when you are asked to pay child support.
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
Ever heard of child support?
If the father has no rights during the gestation period of the baby, then why should he all of a sudden be forced to pay for that which you say he lost his right to have a say in?
Is there such a thing as ‘in utero’ child support?
I don’t believe there is,but I may be wrong.
If there isn’t then it’s clear that rights and obligations as regard to child support begin at birth,not before.
You cannot lose what you never had.
[/quote]
You just said the man loses his right to any say over the unborn child. Now you say he not only has no right, but must pay for his mistake.
Either the man has rights, and must shoulder the responsibility, or he has no rights, and has no responsibility.
Whether the child is in the womb, or in the crib down the hall should have no bearing on this.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
Tell that to a judge when you are asked to pay child support.
[/quote]
I may have been unclear in my brevity…how I meant the ’ our right to exercise control of what happens ends ’ relates only to the period of gestation.
How I should have stated it is rather that as a male,our (legal) rights and obligations commence at
birth.
Since we do not carry or give birth,I believe that the right to make the choice rests with the mother.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
Ever heard of child support?
If the father has no rights during the gestation period of the baby, then why should he all of a sudden be forced to pay for that which you say he lost his right to have a say in?
Is there such a thing as ‘in utero’ child support?
I don’t believe there is,but I may be wrong.
If there isn’t then it’s clear that rights and obligations as regard to child support begin at birth,not before.
You cannot lose what you never had.
You just said the man loses his right to any say over the unborn child. Now you say he not only has no right, but must pay for his mistake.
Either the man has rights, and must shoulder the responsibility, or he has no rights, and has no responsibility.
Whether the child is in the womb, or in the crib down the hall should have no bearing on this.
[/quote]
That is right. It is often the refusal of the man to take responsibility for his actions that causes trouble whether it causes the child to be aborted or raised in a bad situation.
I think it is shameful that when a man steps up to take responsibility he is told he has no say in the matter.
What the hell kind of society have we become that this is deemed acceptable?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
RebornTN wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The mind is the total collective capabilities of rationality. It is what allows us to reason verses just follow instinctive behavior.
A deer can find water and remember where it is (instinct) but has no concept of thinking to look for another way to the source should there be a landslide that blocks its path, for example. That would require a mind.
You don’t know much about animals, do you?
Just clarifying if this was aimed towards me or lift?
Whoever says animals don’t have a mind. Animals are not as smart as people but they certainly have the capacity to think and develop emotional attachments.[/quote]
That would be Lift.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.[/quote]
Absolutely.
I don’t need a woman to tell me that an abortion is the murder of a person. I can figure that on my own…It is pretty obvious after all.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
oh yay… men discussing a woman’s right to an abortion…
Kill an unborn baby.
We father children. We raise children. We are obligated tp pay for children. We should have a say as to whether the mother murders them or not.
We as men absolutely have a say.We have a say in who we have sex with,whether we deem it necessary to wear a condom or not.If we make the wrong choice in those situations,then that is where our right to exercise control of what happens ends due to the facts of biology.
A belated attempt to then exercise control through a morality based blackmail tactic should surely not be condoned?
Tell that to a judge when you are asked to pay child support.
[/quote]
You can also ask the judge, why when you have killed a pregnant woman, are you charged with double murder. Seems the gestating human suddenly has rights when it comes to murder, weird.
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
This is good enough for me.
15 definitions… I think I’ll go back to “mind.” It’ll save some time.
No your just a mindless person.
Same difference. The only relationships you can have with a mindless person are the ones you could have with your car or with an inflatable doll.
[/quote]
Well the mindless person would be warmer…But I take offense at the car reference. Depending on the car you can have a beautiful relationship…I love cars.
No, your body is part of who you are. You can’t just exchange it for a new one and carry one as is, your bodily experience is part of what makes you, you. Now if your arguing for the existence of a soul, then that’s a different topic all together, but it is not a mind per se.
However, if you transfered your “mind” to a can of tuna, you’d be just a useless as a mindless person save for the protein content.
autonomous: existing and functioning as an independent organism.
That does not mean it does not depend on something to live. Parasites depend on their host to live, but they are not their host.
Both are dependent…All living things are dependent on things other than themselves for survival, are they not?