[quote]RebornTN wrote:
I hate how my posts never get quoted…[/quote]
There ya go! :>
Abortion and miscarriage are tough issues to tackle. If you can help resolve them, welcome aboard.
I guess I can see some of Lifty’s position, where if a woman got raped or the woman would die for sure if she carries a baby to term (I can rally relate there). Those are and should be very unusual circumstances, to kill an unborn child.
So, what about this.
Consider a woman who has had a child already. She is a loving and good parent. On the next pregnancy, she ends up miscarrying very early on, roughly 8 weeks in. Do you think she would mourn the miscarriage as she would her existing child? Or would she treat it like a heavier menstrual cycle, and merely mourn the idea of what could have been life, but never actually was.
[quote]GCF wrote:
jawara wrote:
A buddy of mine’s wife cheated on him with another soldier and got pregnant. A couple days ago he told me he wish she would have a miscarriage and sure a shit she did. He told me about it and was very happy about it. I wasn’t. I know I’m going thru what he’s going thru but I just couldnt wish for the death of an innocent child. Am I wrong to feel this way?
You are perfectly entitled to feel however you like.
He is perfectly entitled to feel however he likes.
How he feels about his own situation is none of your business. [/quote]
When he walks up to me and says with a big smile “Dude my wife had a miscarriage, I’m so happy”, he brought me into his business. The only thing I couldn’t smile back or be happy for him because my dad wanted to abort ME and when he told ME that he wanted my mom to do that I got kinda pissed. Wishing the death of an innocent child just aint cool in my book.
[quote]jawara wrote:
GCF wrote:
jawara wrote:
A buddy of mine’s wife cheated on him with another soldier and got pregnant. A couple days ago he told me he wish she would have a miscarriage and sure a shit she did. He told me about it and was very happy about it. I wasn’t. I know I’m going thru what he’s going thru but I just couldnt wish for the death of an innocent child. Am I wrong to feel this way?
You are perfectly entitled to feel however you like.
He is perfectly entitled to feel however he likes.
How he feels about his own situation is none of your business.
When he walks up to me and says with a big smile “Dude my wife had a miscarriage, I’m so happy”, he brought me into his business. The only thing I couldn’t smile back or be happy for him because my dad wanted to abort ME and when he told ME that he wanted my mom to do that I got kinda pissed. Wishing the death of an innocent child just aint cool in my book.[/quote]
Fair enough. And as I said your feelings are entitled, they are your feelings. But his feelings are his feelings and he is entitled to them also. If you don’t like that don’t hang out with him. I just don’t get why you’d ask a messageboard if it’s alright to feel a certain way.
EDIT: To make more sense. I hope.
[quote]RebornTN wrote:
I hate how my posts never get quoted…[/quote]
bump
Embryos and fetus ARE NOT parasites. They might share traits, but then, so do infants and toddlers vis-a-vis the household.
But having a mind is a good point. If we look at the other end of life, it’s the criteria that’s used all the time to decide whether to keep someone on life support or not. When people are in a persistent vegetative state; when their brains, for whatever reason - disease, trauma - has been heavily damaged, decisions are made to end those lives based mostly on that criteria. They are just as emotional and difficult to make too.
If the fetus, higher brain functions appear between the 20th and 27th week. Aborting a fetus in the first trimester is still a hard decision (at least, it should be) and an emotional one, but there can be no awareness from the fetus, no more than there would be from unplugging a motorcycle crash victim who’s helmet saved his life but not his mind.
Last point: It’d be more honest from the “pro-life” side (as if anyone is “anti-life”) to stop arguing as if all abortions are late third trimester ones. Close to 95% of abortions occur before the 12th week, when the fetus is still well in the “Republican” stage. Most “pro-choice” (again, as if anyone is “anti-choice…” are those labels chosen to enflame already emotional debates?) people I know are against 3rd trimester abortions. Even Canada’s famed (or infamous, depending on your views) Dr. Henry Morgentaler has repeatedly said that he’s ethically opposed to aborting a fetus passed the 24th week.
So it basically comes down to when you believe “personhood” starts. Not when “life” starts. Life started 4 billion years ago and hasn’t been interrupted since. The ovum and spermatozoa are just as alive as you are, and as the fecunded egg is. Same goes for the zygote, embryo, fetus… it’s all alive. But sperm, ovums, zygotes, embryos, etc. aren’t “persons.” They have no mind.
If you believe life to begin at conception, then you must accept the fact that something like 60% of all lives never make it. Many embryos never implant in the womb, for various reasons. And many of those that do implant will still be washed away. Most evacuations occur on the natural menstrual cycle so the woman never even knows she was pregnant for a short time… some occur later (miscarriages). Nature (or God, if you believe), it seems, considers life to be rather cheap and disposable.
If you believe that “personhood” occurs at birth, then you’re a bit late. Millions of premature babies will attest to the fact that the baby was entirely viable even if they where born at 27, 28 or 32 weeks. Recently, babies born at 24 or 25 weeks have been “saved” but all of them (at least, I’m not aware of a single exception) suffer from mental retardation at various degrees, tending toward the heavily challenged side.
It basically comes down to a value judgment. Personally, while I wish that no abortions ever had to be performed; that people would use birth control and act responsibly, think that first trimester abortions are better than the alternative double whammy of illegal backstreet abortions with a bunch of unwanted kids thrust into the world. I’m not too comfortable with later abortions. 2nd trimester, I’d support if there is a medical condition that warrants it (ie, the life of the mother is in danger). 3rd trimester is out. The fetus is viable at that point, tough it out or get a C-section and give it up for adoption.
[quote]rotten wrote:
So, what about this.
Consider a woman who has had a child already. She is a loving and good parent. On the next pregnancy, she ends up miscarrying very early on, roughly 8 weeks in. Do you think she would mourn the miscarriage as she would her existing child? Or would she treat it like a heavier menstrual cycle, and merely mourn the idea of what could have been life, but never actually was.[/quote]
Of course she would. Any decent human being would. Even if the flatly logical and rational view should be that there never was any one there (ie, not yet a person); we are not flatly logical and rational being. We are emotional (and maybe mostly emotional) beings; we project a person on the unborn baby, we talk to it, make plans for it, wonder about what it will do, etc. Losing a baby is an emotionally devastating experience.
[quote]pookie wrote:
It basically comes down to a value judgment. Personally, while I wish that no abortions ever had to be performed; that people would use birth control and act responsibly, think that first trimester abortions are better than the alternative double whammy of illegal backstreet abortions with a bunch of unwanted kids thrust into the world. I’m not too comfortable with later abortions. 2nd trimester, I’d support if there is a medical condition that warrants it (ie, the life of the mother is in danger). 3rd trimester is out. The fetus is viable at that point, tough it out or get a C-section and give it up for adoption.
[/quote]
Well said - all of it. We have enough people on this planet - no need to force more to be here in “unwanted” circumstances.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Babies are not parasites. Stop trying to redefine words.[/quote]
Babies are not parasites and they are not fetuses either. A fetus is not a baby until it is born. Technically, a fetus requires a host so it is a parasite.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
If it weren’t for him redefining words, he would not know the meaning of anything he says. [/quote]
Essentially all knowledge relies on concepts which requires words to understand. They must be accurately defined to coincide with truth. The struggle for knowledge is the struggle to define concepts. Learning is the act of redefining what is incorrect.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Learning is the act of redefining what is incorrect.[/quote]
When do you plan to get started?
[quote]rotten wrote:
So, what about this.
Consider a woman who has had a child already. She is a loving and good parent. On the next pregnancy, she ends up miscarrying very early on, roughly 8 weeks in. Do you think she would mourn the miscarriage as she would her existing child? Or would she treat it like a heavier menstrual cycle, and merely mourn the idea of what could have been life, but never actually was.[/quote]
That depends on the particular woman. One would imagine that emotional attachment makes a loss much worse. But that doesn’t mean a woman cannot form an emotional bond with an unborn baby.
[quote]pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Learning is the act of redefining what is incorrect.
When do you plan to get started?
[/quote]
The dance started at birth.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
If it weren’t for him redefining words, he would not know the meaning of anything he says.
Essentially all knowledge relies on concepts which requires words to understand. They must be accurately defined to coincide with truth. The struggle for knowledge is the struggle to define concepts. Learning is the act of redefining what is incorrect.[/quote]
Holy shit. You really don’t get it, do you?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Babies are not parasites. Stop trying to redefine words.
Babies are not parasites and they are not fetuses either. A fetus is not a baby until it is born. Technically, a fetus requires a host so it is a parasite.[/quote]
Wrong. A fetus is not a parasite. You keep trying to redefine words. I suspect you slept through most of your education and only recently you have started to use your mind. Unfortunately you are way behind because of this.
Black is not white, up is not down no matter how much you may wish it so.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Learning is the act of redefining what is incorrect.
When do you plan to get started?
The dance started at birth.[/quote]
Good to see I am not the only one that thinks this way about you.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Learning is the act of redefining what is incorrect.
When do you plan to get started?
The dance started at birth.[/quote]
Dance? You thrash about like a maggot being fried in hot grease.
I got quoted, YES! I’m also happy that Zap and Rain-jack were attacking Lift- For the duration of the second page I thought they were after me.
[quote]RebornTN wrote:
I got quoted, YES! I’m also happy that Zap and Rain-jack were attacking Lift- For the duration of the second page I thought they were after me.[/quote]
You suck too. 
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
I have heard some obtuse shit try to be passed of truth.
Heard? You’re one of the main purveyor.
[/quote]
Mom! Pookie’s on the computer again…