Bravo, LightandFluffy! You said what I didn’t have the time or energy to put into words.
Shame on you for looking down your nose and then making silly statements like that. From which community college did you get your “honours” degree?
Operation Seelowe was technically sound. The problem was the lack of air superiority. The British conducted a brilliant defense during the Battle of Britain, but one fact that is often overlooked when discussing this battle is German technical limitations. Earlier model Messerschmidt BF 109s had an extremely limited operational range, giving them scant minutes to fight while over southern Britain. Had the Germans been able to rectify this (which they were most certainly doing with both later model 109’s such as the G model and even the hard-hitting Focke Wulf 190), Britain would have been sorely tried in holding off the Luftwaffe. Had the Germans managed to get troops ashore… the Brits of the day knew how that would end. As it was, the Germans simply turned their attention elsewhere for the time.
Also, remember your Churchill. Read anything he said or did during the period in regards to American involvement. Lend-Lease and enormous amounts of American supplies kept Britain from starving during the Blitz. The enormously powerful British Navy was not particularly effective against the U-Boat menace, and in any case would not have lasted long against long-range German fighters (think Bismarck, Midway, etc.)
The Atlantic Wall was not built to stave off the British. 55 divisions were not left in France to defend against the British. It is HIGHLY unlikely that the British would have been able to mount any kind of offensive against Fortress Europe by herself.
So if you are saying that the U.S. did not come to the rescue… Consider the alternative. The Germans would have had in excess of sixty extra divisions (probably many more than that)to throw into the Eastern Front. When you consider how close the Germans came to running wild on several occasions, I think these divisions would have made a serious difference. At the very least, I think Germany might have fought the Russians to a draw. They came damn close to smoking the Russians even as they built the Atlantic Wall (think Moscow – another handful of divisions and the Russians would have been crushed). Where would that have left Britain? Alone, friendless, besieged, facing nearly the full might of the Germans, this time with long-range aircraft – and by an opponent that left to its own devices would have shortly had the ATOMIC BOMB.
The biggest thing to be said against the Americans is that they didn’t get involved earlier. When they did, the effect was DECISIVE.
I have nothing against the soldiers who fight in the military, but the people who control it are the most corrupt dick heads in the world.
Boozy, it takes not a single bit of intelligence to say somethink like that. Back it up with something tangible, and you might get my attention.
The weight of those extra divisions would certainly have made a difference in Russia. Just think what a difference only a few more panzer divisions,properly supplied , would have made to Rommel in N. Africa. He just might have taken the whole of Egypt and the east.
Anyone that insults any of the US armed forces even in jest is a complete and total shit for brains ass-face! Pardon the crude expression but it is actually the most polite description I could come up with. Nothing is perfect, yah there have been problems within the military, and from military action due to politics. The politics and actions of anyone and anything are always easy to criticize, especially by those who don’t have any idea what they are talking about. Just look at the stupid opinions and snap judgments we see on a daily basis in the media. I have witnessed and experienced first hand exactly how much personal sacrifice US military personnel endure for the sake of their countries inhabitants and those of many other countries. If you have any idea how much dedication I have seen displayed by US military personnel in the face of pain, fatigue, home sickness, sleep depravation, extreme physical and mental stress, unsanitary conditions, horrendous climate conditions, the list goes on and on. The dedicated men I served with sought no reward for their efforts other than the satisfaction that they were providing an ESSENTIAL service to the cause of freedom and civil liberties for every man, woman, and child that made the ethically correct and educated decision to take on the spirit of humanity and democracy. They endured all that day in and day out even though many civilians treat them poorly for making the decision to serve their country.
I know that our government is not perfect, in fact our government was what I feared most while I was serving in the army, but it is still a hell of a lot better than the other options IMO. Instead of throwing out criticisms, why don’t you try taking an active role in making a change for the better? I don’t know of any situation that was ever corrected simply by having people throw insults at it.
This last statement is specifically directed to Iscariot, about your claim that you have an honors degree in European history. You have just thoroughly disgraced whatever educational institute that awarded you with that degree. In your pursuit of knowledge, try to develop a little wisdom to go along with it.
To everyone else that has defended the US military, cheers!
I mean Egypt and the MIDeast.
I’ll get to the history stuff in a second - but first a few other responses. And I hope the line break thing works.
Dear Mr Light and Fluffy: There is nothing wrong with my spelling, there is, however, an awful lot wrong with my typing…which while normally atrocious, was compounded by typing previous posts from work. BTW - Humourous is spelt humorous, just so you know.
To the gentleperson [since one is unable to determine your gender] who stated that he doesn’t think much of my qualifications and assumed that it must be from some low rent community college: Interesting, does your personal attack have anything to do with the argument in question…or…simply that you cannot rise above an ad hominem response. This si something I din’t understand in general in this forum. That where someone disagrees with the majority [or whatever] firstly their age, then their politics, then their education or otherwise is attacked…bravo [BTW Mr Fluffy, you’ll excuse my occasional use of the ellipsis, if that’s OK and all…aw shucks].
And just to make you happy, I didn’t attend a community college, however, I wonder that if you look down your nose at people who do, you obviously must have issues of your own about the value of certain types of education, or are you one of those people for whom the name of the school is more important than the actual education?
Revisionism? Interesting: it would have been revisionistism par-excellence, if I had said that WW2 wouldn’t have been won without the USA army, which I didn’t. What I challenged was the initial conception of the original poster that the US Army always rides in to save the day. It doesn’t. Is it run by politics to an extent, yes it is? Is this attacking the army? No - although for the few people who said that I was attacking the army, obviously they have issues reading in context. The person who wrote the initial post, wisely said with the help “of our friends and allies”.
OK - let’s begin [tho I want to go train so we’ll see how long it takes me to get bored].
L+F - you make some valid points. No argument, then again, I wasn’t challenging the worth of the US Army merely its impact. You’re quite right that Rossevelt, for example, wasn’t an isolationist president, the senate and congress, however, were. It took Pearl Harbour to wake them up. In some ways Roosevelt was far ahead of his time in terms of his concept of the world being global. Truman, and those that followed, however, reduced that globalism down to protrecting the USA from outside threats - would you disagree?
As for the Lend-Lease scheme. Sure, it was beneficial to an extent - dependant on whom you read - but have you also read the theories that the massive war loans
lent out by the US after WW1 precipitated not only the depression but also assisted [along with the enforced Versaille settlement] in setting the scene for WW2.
I question the validity of citing individual actions as evidence of US military prowess. There were excellent US efforts, most dependant on the particular general in question. Look at McArthur [sp?] for example, not a bad genereal, but he made a complete mess of things first time around. But individual battles do not a war make, for example, the New Zealand and Australian governments should have told the British to go bugger themselves after the farce at Gallipoli [WW1].
OK, now as to the Germans "controlling" the whole of Western Europe. Again, that control was sound until the end of 1941, then it started to go to bits when Germany overextended itself in Russia. [Funny - Hitler studied Napoleon, you would have thought he would have had a clue about attacking Russia in winter]. Now this is not to say that the Germans disintergrated in Europe in the next 2.5 years, but their battles thereafter were defensive, and it was only the skill of certain generals who stopped it going completely pear-shaped. Remember, by this time the Luftwaffe was no longer a real force [mind you Goerring was off his head by now -Cocaine among other things IIRC].
Anyway, going to train now. I have no issues with people disagreeing with me,even violently, but keep it civil huh?
Here’s a scary article for you to read.
Evidence Points To Possible US Involvement In the 9/11 Tragedy/Bin Laden Met With CIA In July 2001 @ http://www.greenpress.org/ html/2001/GPress11-22-01.html
I hope you all don’t just skim it and then call me a traitor because I really love the USA. I just hate those who try to mess it up. I know its on greenpress.org, but you all should still read it.
Hey great article! Did you ever see the one about the “Vampire Child” in the National Enquirer? Don’t you find it odd that they can’t back up this evidence. That the more Respected and reputed World News outlets aren’t running with the story?
Son, did your mother have any childern that lived? Why don’t you quit with the I am a teen and I screw-up excuse. The effective range of an excuse is zero meters. Grow-up, Boy!!!Become a man.
redman I thought the Atlantic wall was built specifically to prevent an invasion. If not, what was it built for? I was watching a D-Day program last week and that was the purpose of the wall in this program. Could you clarify please? Thanks.
Boozy, conspiracy theorists exist for virtually everything these days. If somebody wanted, they could probably list a lot of events that “prove” that Bill Clinton conspired with Santa Claus to hijack planes and crash them into buildings too. The fact is that the site you gave provided a decidedly one-sided “view” of what the authors chose to present as fact. The real fact is that not much of what was presented is proven, not do we have any way of knowing whether or not some of it is just things they made up to make their story more plausible. People rely on gullibility and people who would rather see a government conspiracy responsible than the simple truth that this was done by people who hate the US. While I appreciate the fact that you provided something to back your previous statement, I don’t believe three words of it. Just my humble opinion.
Well, as for criticizing your bragging about your education, you asked for it, and judging from your “history”, you’ve earned it. You say things like 80% of Americans don’t know about this or that, then back your plainly PLAINLY incorrect take on history by claiming you have an “honours degree in history”. I would love to debate your points, but quite honestly you made some personal attacks and you brought your history degree up. Don’t try to take the morale high ground Mac – you deserve every flame you get. I don’t have a history degree and even if I did I wouldn’t use it as a cover for poor reasoning and even worse factual knowledge.
Lend-Lease and the American flow of supplies to the UK was beneficial “to an extent”? The implied belittlement of their actual impact is revisionism in its purest form. The US war loans to the Allies set the stage for World War II? How so? Examples of excellence don’t prove the quality of an Army? “Individual actions do not a war make?” How did the wars in question turn out for the Americans? The Luftwaffe was broken by the end of the Battle of Britain? There are some Russian pilots who would disagree with that. The Luftwaffe was broken only years later through monstrous effort by the Allied Air Command, and at huge cost of life.
Your main point, that the Army is run by politics is flabbergasting. I would never have thought of it had you not posted that. Now it’s all clear – I looked it up and you are right! Our President (the commander in chief) has more often been a politician than a general. And I also discovered that the people who control the military budget are civilians – ye Gods! The next thing you know you will be criticizing the US for acting in its own interest… ACK! You did that too! OK, I have to go think about this stuff, it’s pretty heavy.
I hope you get “bored” earlier next time. Defex is young and impressionable and he might actually believe some of the stuff you are posting.
Stuff you all. Britain has the greatest history in the world and who cares if you had to help us out a bit during WW2, i could mention the fact that your special forces, Delta Force, is based on and TRIES to mimic our SAS but FAILS miserably, and how. The sun never sets on the British empire. “Oh Britania…”
The WWII U.S. Rangers were trained by British Commandos. The SAS is rightfully considered one of the most elite fighting forces in the world.BUT, Our special forces are a poor imitation and fail miserably? BULLSHIT!
Happy Flag Day.
Highest regards to my colleagues in the Army Marines, Coast Guard, and Navy (especially those kick-ass SEAL medics).
I’d like to add that we love the British, they bring REAL BEER to the desert.
Hey defex go f@#! yourself you free huggin liberal. Why Do f!@#$% like that get the nerve to bash the military. Your the type that sits home pickin your zits and probably drink your starbucks while soldiers are willing to risk there life for wavy gravy’s like you man i hope theres never a draft cuz you wouldn’t last a day in the infantry
wpns co 2/5 1998-2000
You know i’m sick in tire of all these people talking about who is the greatest special forces units in the world ( seals,force recon,cct pj’s,foreign legion,SAS etc) there all elite and it’s takes a man of exceptional degree to even consider joining ANY of these units no matter what country your from. So if have not ever served SHUT UP!!!
Well, as for criticizing your bragging about your education, you asked for it, and judging from your “history”, you’ve earned it.
Bragging never came into it. If you go back and read the posts Wolverine challenged my knowledge of history. I merely stated that as I have a degree in the subject I have some right of response. That’s the only reference I made to my degree. You can call it bragging if you like, that’s your call.
then back your plainly PLAINLY incorrect take on history by claiming you have an “honours degree in history”.
History is an interpretative discipline. It is not objective, neither is it deterministic.
I disagree with you that I am wrong on all counts, but I also am happy to debate with you
You will also note - since I am granting you the intelligence you refuse to grant me - that I never claimed to be right - either with a reference to having an honours degree or otherwise, go back and reread - I was under the impression it was a discussion.
honestly you made some personal attacks and you brought your history degree up.
To cite the old cliche - “I don’t start anything, only finsh it”. Again, look to my original response, all I questioned as a generalisation that the US Army always rides in to save the day; I stated this wasn’t the case. And I was attacked, not the otehr way around.
Don’t try to take the morale high ground Mac – you deserve every flame you get.
What moral highground? That I disagree with you. That I challenge your opinions? That I don’t automatically agree with the USA - despite all the many positive cultural contributions it has made - being the saviour of Western civilisation?
RE: Lend-Lease
The implied belittlement of their actual impact is revisionism in its purest form.
Redman, I love you. How is questioning the extent of something’s impact a belittlement? I disagree that the lend-lease programme was as effective as you contend. Where’s the belittlement?
The US war loans to the Allies set the stage for World War II? How so?
Again, if you actually bother to read what I wrote, I said that one line of theory can posit that and I said to the Germans, not the Allies…As for the idea behind it, in simplestt terms: The reparations assessed on Germany at Versaille were essentially paid for by America in terms to loans to Germany. This money was immediately passed on to the Allies to pay off the debt owed them. In turn the Allies paid this money back to the US to pay for war loans given to them by the USA [ther only ones who made any money out of this was America]. Essnetially what resulted was a complete undermining of the already non-existant German economy and the resultant resentment already hot after some of the things that were imposed at Versailles were heightened. This resentment allowed the Nazi party to begin to acquire power under the political system. Now, don’t get me wrong, I personally don’t believe the US was responsible for causing World War 2, but there are, as I siad arguments which exist to that effect. Please also note, this is hugely simplified.
Your main point, that the Army is run by politics is flabbergasting. I would never have thought of it had you not posted that.
Can you actually read in context? What I said, in response to some people saying that I was attacking the army, was that in may cases the actions of the army are not determined by them, but by politcal decisions. hell, the army just goes the way it’s pointed. Do you deny that army actions are following political will?
I hope you get “bored” earlier next time.
Actually, I am enjoying myself. At least, even though you have trouble actually reading what i’ve written before jumping up and down, you have passion for what you say, it’s a nice change.
Defex is young and impressionable and he might actually believe some of the stuff you are posting.
What? You want to tell him what to think? Heaven forfend he reads both sides of an argument, does some further reading and makes up his own mind. Anyway, I fail to see any connection to what we have been debating adn what defex said. Cheers iscariot.