Gunning for Mormons

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I don’t want the homosexual behind bars.

That’s a good first step, but making it legal to be gay isn’t the same as granting equal legal rights to gays.
[/quote]

The reason this is different is that being gay is a lifestyle. Its why I have a problem equating the struggle for gay rights, to that of say blacks.

It would be different if prop 8 banned say black people from marrying, that would then grant different rights to different people.

Prop 8 does not offer different rights to different people. Under it everyone would have the same rights pertaining to marriage/civil unions/est.

262

Try this one on for size, LDS spent a lot of money campaigning against prop 8, advertising a lot with the hispanic community. Personally, I can see a lot of reasons to allow gay marriage, or at the least civil unions, but the voters of California voted it down and there you go. Eventually, I don’t think this is going to be such a flash point topic, the closeted gay guys who squawk the most about it will either come out or die off and hopefully future voters won’t be so petty.

263

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I don’t want the homosexual behind bars.

That’s a good first step, but making it legal to be gay isn’t the same as granting equal legal rights to gays.
[/quote]

Marriage and it’s benefits, as recognized and provided by government, has never been an “equal” right. Even if it was extended to homosexuals, it would still be discriminatory.

264

Forlife, you are using the same arguements that the Yes, on Prop 8 voters are. Don’t impose your version of what is right on me and my children. What you do in your home is your business. But, Don’t force your version of what is right on the rest of society.

265

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
…being gay is a lifestyle.[/quote]

ROFL

266

[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
Forlife, you are using the same arguements that the Yes, on Prop 8 voters are. Don’t impose your version of what is right on me and my children. What you do in your home is your business. But, Don’t force your version of what is right on the rest of society.[/quote]

You’re not the one being denied rights.

267

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You are no more defective than the rest of us. The only difference is you gladly embrace your defect and Christians are supposed to at least attempt to get as far away from our defects as possible.

Christians are welcome to work on their defects, however they define them.

I’m not a Christian, and I don’t consider homosexuality a defect. I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but please don’t impose your version of Christianity on my life. [/quote]

Forlife you have not changed your tactics I see. When I posted those words I was addressing the topic from a religious perspective. However, I have also addressed this topic from just about every other perspective as well, and you know it. Each time Gay Marriage comes up short for so very many reasons.

Do you want to continue or do you have enough debate partners for now?

268

[quote]Makavali wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
…being gay is a lifestyle.

ROFL[/quote]

What I am saying is that he is asking for equal rights extended to his relationships, not himself. He as an individual has the exact same rights pertaining to marriage that I do. In that since it is very different from discrimination based on something like race.

269

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Prop 8 does not offer different rights to different people. Under it everyone would have the same rights pertaining to marriage/civil unions/est.[/quote]

Obviously everyone wouldn’t have the same rights, because gays don’t have the right to marry the person they love. You could as easily argue that miscegenation laws were justified because they pertained to a person’s choice/lifestyle…why not just choose to marry someone of your own race?

270

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Marriage and it’s benefits, as recognized and provided by government, has never been an “equal” right. Even if it was extended to homosexuals, it would still be discriminatory.[/quote]

So historical discrimination justifies future discrimination?

271

[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
Forlife, you are using the same arguements that the Yes, on Prop 8 voters are. Don’t impose your version of what is right on me and my children. What you do in your home is your business. But, Don’t force your version of what is right on the rest of society.[/quote]

Nobody is forcing you to marry a man. Nobody is denying you the right to marry the person you love. Nobody is forcing Mormons to recognize gay marriage.

I am being forced not to marry the person I love due to bigots like you, who claim not to hate gays but vote for policies that effectively discriminate against us.

272

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What I am saying is that he is asking for equal rights extended to his relationships, not himself. He as an individual has the exact same rights pertaining to marriage that I do. In that since it is very different from discrimination based on something like race.[/quote]

And miscegenation laws didn’t apply to relationships?

Blacks had the same rights to marry that whites had, because they could marry someone of the same race. Isn’t that fair?

273

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Marriage and it’s benefits, as recognized and provided by government, has never been an “equal” right. Even if it was extended to homosexuals, it would still be discriminatory.

So historical discrimination justifies future discrimination?[/quote]

No, I’m saying it would STILL be discriminatory if you only extended state recognized marriage to homos.

274

[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
What I am saying is that he is asking for equal rights extended to his relationships, not himself. He as an individual has the exact same rights pertaining to marriage that I do. In that since it is very different from discrimination based on something like race.

And miscegenation laws didn’t apply to relationships?

Blacks had the same rights to marry that whites had, because they could marry someone of the same race. Isn’t that fair?[/quote]

I’m not arguing what’s right or not. I’m just saying I don’t buy the civil rights arguments applied to being homosexual. I see them as 2 very different struggles.

Laws can be made that restrict actions, regardless of what a person’s desires may be. As I’ve previously stated, I don’t agree with this one, but I don’t think it is a discrimination issue.

By that same logic organizations like NAMBLA fight against discrimination.

Actions and choices are not inherently discrimination to regulate.

Do drug laws violate the rights of pot-heads? They don’t hurt anyone else. You can even say many have a genetic pre-disposition to desire drugs and become dependent on them.

275

[quote]Sloth wrote:
No, I’m saying it would STILL be discriminatory if you only extended state recognized marriage to homos.[/quote]

So discrimination is ok as long as you discriminate against others as well?

276

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’m not arguing what’s right or not.[/quote]

Why not? Isn’t the rightness or wrongness of the law what matters? If it is wrong, should we continue to support it?

How is the choice to marry someone of a different race qualitatively different from the choice to marry someone of the same gender?

277

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Are you claiming you’ve already cast the beam out of your eye?

Why yes he is. Why yes he is. He hasn’t seemed to figure out the hubris behind that statement yet either. Nor has he connected the simple dots to other biblical stories or texts. Instead he focuses on one line to change what was the obvious point of a story. He even used adultery to claim we should judge others…When Christ himself tells us that only those without sin should cast stones, or condemn.

[i]

[center]Matthew 7 Do Not Judge

1 ?Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother?s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ?Let me remove the speck from your eye?; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother?s eye.
6 ?Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
[/i][/center]

Obviously the title “Do Not Judge” (new king james) is telling us, “Christians Must Judge” as has been claimed.

You’ve got much more patience than I forlife. You’re a better Christan than I (even if you’re not a christian I’m afraid).
[/quote]

context, stoning someone condemning them to death,

quit using one part out of the context it was meant in to try and justify an argument

Romans 2:11-13
11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 3:3-5
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”[a]

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

278

[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
I’m not arguing what’s right or not.

Why not? Isn’t the rightness or wrongness of the law what matters? If it is wrong, should we continue to support it?

I’m just saying I don’t buy the civil rights arguments applied to being homosexual. I see them as 2 very different struggles.

How is the choice to marry someone of a different race qualitatively different from the choice to marry someone of the same gender?
[/quote]

That’s actually a pretty good point.

I still see a difference in that prop 8 would apply to everyone evenly, where race laws did not. What you were talking about would regulate who you could marry based on your skin color. A persons sexual orientation does not in any way change who you are allowed to marry under prop 8.

Sexual orientation in no way effects the application of the law, where race used to.

I still think it’s BS, but in terms of rights violations, it no more violates your rights than mine.

279

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, I’m saying it would STILL be discriminatory if you only extended state recognized marriage to homos.

So discrimination is ok as long as you discriminate against others as well?
[/quote]

Huh? If you favor state recognized marriage between a man and woman, and even a man and a man, you’re a bigot. Why leave out the polygamist, straight or bisexual? Why not hetero same sex marriages? Should they be descriminated against because they don’t fit your definition of marriage?

280

[quote]Sloth wrote:
forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, I’m saying it would STILL be discriminatory if you only extended state recognized marriage to homos.

So discrimination is ok as long as you discriminate against others as well?

Huh? If you favor state recognized marriage between a man and woman, and even a man and a man, you’re a bigot. Why leave out the polygamist, straight or bisexual? Why not hetero same sex marriages? Should they be descriminated against because they don’t fit your definition of marriage?[/quote]

There is town near me known for relations with sheep, can’[t leave them out.