Not arguing this. I mean clearly we’re the ones that have problems other countries don’t in this regard.
But wouldn’t this actually be an argument for gun control? Although I was being tongue in cheek with the we need more guns to protect against guns comment.
They also actually treat their mentally ill in inpatient facilities against their will. The US had a 96% decrease in psychiatric hospital beds since 1950 for many misguided reasons. Oddly the decrease in beds preceded the surge in crime that caused the “war on drugs”.
Pay for someone else’s healthcare? Those mentally ill people can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps!
But we have close to 20% of Americans taking a pill for mental health which is another topic altogether.
Well considering the Paris concert where 150 people were shot, or that swedish guy that killed a bunch of kids on an island… European style gun regulations don’t guarantee no mass shooters.
If you look at gun deaths and crime in the US. I believe north of 70% of gun deaths are suicides. I’ll just write those off now. Determined people will punch their own ticket no matter what. While that’s sad that desperate people make that choice, I don’t see that as a valid reason to restrict the rights of non-suicidal people.
I forget the source, but nearly all gun violence in the US is contained in like 10 zip codes (all with high amounts of gun control). The rest of the US is as safe as Europe. It’s my belief that the prohibition on drugs makes a profit opportunity for cartels and their dealers and a reason to have turf wars. Just like the prohibition on alcohol allowed the Italian gangsters to prosper and start turf wars.
As for mass shootings. Society is producing defective units. There’s some reason this didn’t happen before and it is now. The guns haven’t changed. It used to be bullied lonely kids just made nerdy friends or read books, not became homicidal maniacs.
We should have cops at school anyway. Guns or no guns. In Pittsburgh a school resource officer tackled a crazy kid who brought 2 steak knives in and was running through the hallways slashing people.
We protect money with armored guards, not children. The Israelis have soldiers at school because Hamas likes killing children. If I was king of the US I’d pull cops from drug task forces and adult vice enforcement and move them over to protecting schools.
Pressure cookers exist, truck attacks exist etc… and for some reason maniacs like killing children.
I would pay voluntary charity to help the mentally ill. I’ve been too close to suicides and other nonsense and seen damaged kids that needed custodial care.
Don’t get me started on SSRIs and overprescribing (5,000% growth rate in depression diagnosis).
That’s a helluva growth rate … why do you think that is?
I think that’s an old stat from a 10 year period 1995 to 2005 IIRC. I’ve seen similar ones for more recent.
Most likely explanation is the diagnosis for “depression” got very watered down. “Having a bad day? Girlfriend dump you? You may have depression.” You’re supposed to feel sad when bad things happen. That doesn’t mean we need to fiddle with your brain chemistry. Real DSM depression is completely debilitating inability to deal with life, leave the house, function etc.
We could blame doctors, pharma companies, patients looking for a magic pill… all the above.
could it be also more access to mental health professionals? i.e. more people can now afford to go see someone about feeling blue, coupled with the potential for ‘watered down’ prognoses?
Are there more or less shrinks per capita? Should be an easy check. Could be a cultural thing too. Imagine a blue collar worker going to see a therapist in 1970 and telling his buddies about it. He’d be laughed out of the mill.
Not really a good rabbit hole to go down. But an awful lot of these mass killers have been on SSRIs.
I just can’t square lifespans being the best ever, material comfort being the best ever, society being more open and free… and depression growing like crazy.
I don’t know, instant gratification is easily attainable when compared to generations past? FOMO is a thing and IG and FB don’t help with that - people posting things about their lives that make it seem like their lives are sooo much better than yours? I’d imagine we’re (humans) aren’t adjusting to the prevalence of instant communication, instant gratification and availability of seratonin and dopamine producing shiny things to where we used to have to work for that shit and delayed gratification?? Pure speculation on my part of course…
I would never argue you can get rid of them. But we don’t do anything when it happens. Clearly that hasn’t worked out well for us.
Talked about this in another thread recently. Research doesn’t back this up. The vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts don’t act on them. And sometimes those who do don’t want to be successful. Guns give you no wiggle room. You can survive swallowing pills and slit wrists. These things give you time to change your mind. Guns are designed to kill in a hurry and are easy.
If people who are suicidal have access to guns they are more likely to end up dead than those that don’t. If someone really wants to be successful they will but no doubt the ease and speed of guns can’t be overlooked.
And shouldn’t society’s reaction to this include looking at the very things that allow these “defective units” to kill rapidly? I’m not saying it should be the only thing done but seems like a logical place to start.
I detest suicide, and wish necromancy was a thing so I could bring certain people back and whoop their ass for what they’ve done to their families. But a free person should be free to take their own life. Habeas Corpus literally means ‘you have the body’. If you don’t have sovereignty enough to end your own life do you have any sovereignty or rights over that life at all?
If you’re not suiciding by cop or diving on to a train track with your five year old I don’t think anyone has the right to stop you.
The problem is (saying this with exactly zero sarcasm) the freedom.
The right to bear arms is right there in the constitution. 100 million gun owners are vested in keeping their guns. There’s zero trust in goodwill/fairplay that gun regulators will implement ‘reasonable’ regulations or that they’ll stop with just one more regulation.
The SCOTUS enumerated an explicit ‘right to privacy’ with Roe V Wade. The privacy restrictions went even further with HIPPA. I’m all for red flag laws and stuff but I don’t know how they’ll stack up against HIPPA.
Given the lack of trust stated in point 1. What do you think the opportunities for abuse will be? What constitutes a “mental illness”.
Went to a high school guidance councilor for help with bullying 10 years ago? Red flag
Parents put you on Adderall (speed) for ADHD when you were 8 because they couldn’t be bothered to parent? Red flag
Diagnosed with depression after a family member died and you sought counseling? Red flag
Sought marriage counseling to work through something with your wife? Red flag
See your friends blown to bits in stupid never ending wars, got counciling for PTSD? Red flag
Guns used in less than 10% of suicide attempts but account for half the deaths. A lot of people who have attempted to take their life and ended up fine because overdose and other methods give people time to be found or seek help.
Guns don’t let you do that.
Sure it’s possible that things go “too far” and certain people might end up being denied a gun on shaky grounds. But we don’t know that would happen.
We’ve given red flags don’t exist a chance for quite a while now. Why not do some things to see if the other way has some success?
I mean the vast majority of the country supports this and we have a problem that most countries with similar situations to ours don’t have. And we worry that it’s possible we will do something that goes too far and so we do nothing? That’s nuts to me.
Don’t expect legislation to get passed on this anytime soon. I fully expect the dems to take Prez and Senate over in 2020. Trump was trying to work with them on red flag laws. They should have pushed the impeachment stuff until after he signed it.
At this point I don’t think he’d sign a ‘Trump for Emperor’ bill if it came from Pelosi.
That’s a weird thing to say… not that I am for it, but saying the word ‘detest’ with suicide is an interesting way of putting it.
I don’t like it either, but there is a difference between people who contemplate the act, perhaps even fantasize on the act and actually going through with it. Some people say it’s a cowardly act, but the word coward really doesn’t apply. Selfish, yes, cowardly, no. It takes a tremendous amount of will power to overcome your natural instinct to survive.
I wonder sometimes, what kind of pain someone has to be in to go all the way? I also wonder how many people wanted the attention of attempted suicide but accidentally went to far.
I also would not want to walk a mile in their shoes if their pain is so great they cannot live with it.
This. This is the sticky bit because it’s clearly a slippery slope. People from all walks of life have committed homicide. Some are nuts, some are not. I would levy restrictions only on the most disassociative disorders, where really is a faint thing. The water mark has to be high enough that most people fall under it. So it really would not eliminate that many people. Then it needs to be measured against other markers. Mental stability alone is not a good measure, unless someone is truly bat-shit crazy.
Look at serial killers. Many have talked and unless they are talking about their crimes, they don’t sound crazy at all. Some may not even measure on a test as a psychopath.
What are you trying to stop, mass shootings?
I don’t think you can stop them fully but yes.
I’m not sure that’s the case. Society is more open and free for ever smaller minorities, but I’m not sure that’s generally the case. Those increasingly small minorities often gain privileges at the expense of others.