Gun Control

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1041

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I bet the petit jury didn’t know that they could find him ‘not guilty’ by reason of jury nullification.

…

The system does not want you to know that We the People are in charge. They fight like hell to hide those situations where you have direct power and then make empty threats when you flex that power.[/quote]

This is how we fight if they take our means of defense. No you don’t have to stand in your doorway shooting ATF agents. You find people not guilty… End of story.[/quote]
Are you saying that we should surrender our means of forceful resistance, and expect that our peaceful method will be allowed to continue?[/quote]

If people are charging your house, you do what you feel you need to do.

But if all we are talking about is loser jackwagon politicians passing shit laws from behind a desk, We The People find the subsequent “felons” not guilty.

1042

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

I like this Larry Pratt guy.[/quote]
The “well, bloody hell” look on Morgan’s face @1:44 warms my soul.

This is why Piers Morgan normally uses the ‘loudest voice in the room’ argument. If he allows his opponent to speak, his BS is crushed as easily as a tin can. You can look for Morgan to revert to his pre-owned-by-alex-jones technique of asking a question and then talking over the answer.

Another point that was made in another thread (I think); Britain does not count a dead body with a bullet hole in it as a gun murder unless there is a conviction. So by that, we can just abandon all murder cases in 2013 and come up with 0 murders on the stat sheet.

1043

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I bet the petit jury didn’t know that they could find him ‘not guilty’ by reason of jury nullification.

…

The system does not want you to know that We the People are in charge. They fight like hell to hide those situations where you have direct power and then make empty threats when you flex that power.[/quote]

This is how we fight if they take our means of defense. No you don’t have to stand in your doorway shooting ATF agents. You find people not guilty… End of story.[/quote]
Are you saying that we should surrender our means of forceful resistance, and expect that our peaceful method will be allowed to continue?[/quote]

If people are charging your house, you do what you feel you need to do.

But if all we are talking about is loser jackwagon politicians passing shit laws from behind a desk, We The People find the subsequent “felons” not guilty.[/quote]

That would be interesting…to get a consensus among most people nation-wide, where anything we deem unreasonable, regardless of existing laws, was just said “not guilty” by the jury, end of story. I wonder what the gov’t would do to work around that. Keep changing juries until they find one to convict them? Pay the jury off? Say a jury is no longer a constitutional necessity/right? They’d try something.

1044

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Another point that was made in another thread (I think); Britain does not count a dead body with a bullet hole in it as a gun murder unless there is a conviction. So by that, we can just abandon all murder cases in 2013 and come up with 0 murders on the stat sheet.[/quote]

Don’t forget about glassing:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=glassing&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Gsn0UMOwKInm9ASjgoHoAw&sqi=2&ved=0CD4QsAQ&biw=991&bih=477

1045

Well, that is where the rubber meats the road, beans, and different people have drawn their lines with different criteria.

A lot of people had their lines crossed long ago, and are waiting. A lot of people had their lines crossed recently, and are waiting. The majority of people are about to have theirs crossed, and then I fear the waiting will stop.

What do you do if your neighbor’s door gets kicked in during the night? Do you cower in fear? Do you ignore it as long as it isn’t you? Or do you rise to their aid, knowing you will probably die?

1046

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Well, that is where the rubber meats the road, beans, and different people have drawn their lines with different criteria.

A lot of people had their lines crossed long ago, and are waiting. A lot of people had their lines crossed recently, and are waiting. The majority of people are about to have theirs crossed, and then I fear the waiting will stop.

What do you do if your neighbor’s door gets kicked in during the night? Do you cower in fear? Do you ignore it as long as it isn’t you? Or do you rise to their aid, knowing you will probably die?[/quote]

In today’s America, where someone can get raped on a busy city street and have nobody come to their aid…most people would just be glad it’s not them [yet].

1047

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I bet the petit jury didn’t know that they could find him ‘not guilty’ by reason of jury nullification.

…

The system does not want you to know that We the People are in charge. They fight like hell to hide those situations where you have direct power and then make empty threats when you flex that power.[/quote]

This is how we fight if they take our means of defense. No you don’t have to stand in your doorway shooting ATF agents. You find people not guilty… End of story.[/quote]
Are you saying that we should surrender our means of forceful resistance, and expect that our peaceful method will be allowed to continue?[/quote]

If people are charging your house, you do what you feel you need to do.

But if all we are talking about is loser jackwagon politicians passing shit laws from behind a desk, We The People find the subsequent “felons” not guilty.[/quote]

That would be interesting…to get a consensus among most people nation-wide, where anything we deem unreasonable, regardless of existing laws, was just said “not guilty” by the jury, end of story. I wonder what the gov’t would do to work around that. Keep changing juries until they find one to convict them? Pay the jury off? Say a jury is no longer a constitutional necessity/right? They’d try something. [/quote]

I have been told, however, that the judicial system is really forceful ( “authoritative” ) in demanding the case be judged only by the facts and not whether the law is appropriate to the situation and also not as to whether it is constitutional.

2010 Texas ( of all places ) example:

Is the law appropriate to this case or is just being made to answer “did he or did he not sell a gun to the illegal alien” - in a manner not different from some “debating” here.

Authoritarianism: The system is being authoritarian and the people are made to deal with authoritarian personality types and end up giving in and being submissive to it.

EDIT: This seems to have been a poor choice of example case. I had read another news report of it before, a brief summary from the news department of a local Texas radio station, after having read claims about this case. The radio station’s news article seemed to back up the version of wrongful prosecution. Just now I found the above Fox link, which is more detailed. It does seem from the Fox link that there may have been a straw sale, which confuses the entire issue. It would take further research that I’m not in a position to do to find whether the conviction really hinged on the sale being, unknowingly, to an illegal alien. Or whether rather irrelevantly the straw buyer happened to be an illegal. So, not a good example, but an individual picking a flawed example doesn’t invalidate the point. It just leaves it desirable to have a better example. Anyone?

1048

Well, we can argue the how’s and why’s of that, but I think we all understand the mental mechanics of city street crime.

We, as a nation, are going to have to wake up and realize that as long as we let these things happen, it will be us eventually. As long as we let predators live, they will eventually come after us. The unfortunate truth is that evil people exist in this world, and the best realistic way (not the easiest, or the most pleasant, but the best) is for good people to kill them in the act.

The best way to reduce crime is to reduce criminals.

1049

My husband’s pipe dream:

There should be a fourth branch of government, which has power only over those in the other branches of government. Not over the people. This branch would be run by representatives elected by the people.

All members of the other branches of government would be under the laws and judicial system of this branch. This branch’s sole interest and job would be investigating and, where appropriate, prosecuting government agents and officials who abuse power or act unconstitutionally.

For example, in this Texas case, such a branch might have established laws where actions such as by these ATF agents and prosecuting attorney might have been illegal. If the other government branches had acted this way anyway they might have been found guilty of ensnaring and wrongfully prosecuting this man. And had to serve prison time for it.

If there were such a “threat” of being subject to law enforcement that was not part of their very own system, we might see considerable more care taken. As is, they are subject only to investigation, law enforcement, and justice within their very own system, so they are near-fearless. But this is only an idea he briefly had years ago, says it is a pipe dream.

1050

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
My husband’s pipe dream:
[/quote]

In Maine, we have a pseudo-gov’t agency “OPEGA”.

It’s mission:

The Office of Program Evaluation and Government Accountability (OPEGA) exists to support the Legislature in meeting its constitutional responsibilities and to improve the accountability, oversight and performance of State government for the benefit of Maineâ??s citizens.

OPEGA conducts objective and independent performance audits of State government programs and activities to ensure they are achieving intended results and are effective, efficient and economical. Within this context, OPEGA also evaluates compliance with laws, regulations, policies and procedures.

http://www.maine.gov/legis/opega/

While not perfect, it has provided value to the state. Not sure if there is a Federal version of this (doubtful, and if there is, it’s not doing much lol).

1052

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I bet the petit jury didn’t know that they could find him ‘not guilty’ by reason of jury nullification.

…

The system does not want you to know that We the People are in charge. They fight like hell to hide those situations where you have direct power and then make empty threats when you flex that power.[/quote]

This is how we fight if they take our means of defense. No you don’t have to stand in your doorway shooting ATF agents. You find people not guilty… End of story.[/quote]
Are you saying that we should surrender our means of forceful resistance, and expect that our peaceful method will be allowed to continue?[/quote]

If people are charging your house, you do what you feel you need to do.

But if all we are talking about is loser jackwagon politicians passing shit laws from behind a desk, We The People find the subsequent “felons” not guilty.[/quote]

That would be interesting…to get a consensus among most people nation-wide, where anything we deem unreasonable, regardless of existing laws, was just said “not guilty” by the jury, end of story. I wonder what the gov’t would do to work around that. Keep changing juries until they find one to convict them? Pay the jury off? Say a jury is no longer a constitutional necessity/right? They’d try something. [/quote]

The government (judicial branch) has been suppressing the jury’s right to nullification since Adams (if not Jefferson, I’m too lazy to look up the example at this point.) Judges don’t bring it up and say all that “judged on the facts of the case” bullshit so you stop thinking about it.

Pretty sure they don’t even teach it in school anymore, although based on facebook conversations with history and civics teachers I know, students are being taught complete and utter bullshit, at least in southern NH, lol.

This country was founded on, by and for smugglers and tax evaders who fancied being free once they tasted it. Then they did as all men do, and acted like assholes. Jefferson, brilliant man, we quote him often, penned “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”… Well in some ways he was a two faced douche. Fights Hamilton and the Federalists about big government, well then starts a war without congress’s approval, buys Louisiana (lol thank god for the slave rebellion in Haiti and don’t you worry he was going to try and pass an amendment to make it legal, but, nah… F That) and oh yeah, neglects to set his slaves free.

I suppose his head told him people have the natural right to freedom, but his heart, and “southern” aristocrat past/heart just couldn’t let them go…

Washington and Adams… after that starts the double talking, do as I say not as I do, never ending train of politicians that suck at one thing or another.

Sorry I’m rambling.

1053

[quote]pushharder wrote:
[center]NEWS FLASH![/center]

Doc Skeptix and I are going gun shopping this weekend together! I kid ye not![/quote]

Right…and pigs will be serving donuts on Air Pakistan.

1054

Get a room, you two.

It’s embarrassing I tell ya.

1056

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
[center]NEWS FLASH![/center]

Doc Skeptix and I are going gun shopping this weekend together! I kid ye not![/quote]

Right…and pigs will be serving donuts on Air Pakistan.[/quote]

Nope, we’re going. Mount up![/quote]
Huh. Old Doc finally decided to stop being a willing victim, eh? Good to hear.

1058

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]b89 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
When the second amendment says a “well regulated Militia” I wonder if they thought America would have a professional military the way we do . And possibly they thought we would always have a rag tag bunch to defend from foreign invaders rather than the preemptive force we have at present.[/quote]

Things were different in their time. Somebody could just pick up their musket and go off to fight a war in their day, some guy can’t pick up his rifle and fly off to Afghanistan to help out now no matter how tacticool he or his rifle may be. A well trained and regulated militia would ensure a better soldier than a man that just goes out hunting and doesn’t have any real military training.
[/quote]
That is actually what our founders were against. We were never meant to go “liberate” the world. They were against the kind of perpetual warfare that we have been mired down in for the past 70 or so years.

That is precisely what prevented me from joining the military in the first place. I do not believe in fighting wars for peoples who won’t fight for themselves.

The militia has always been intended to guard US, from enemies foreign and domestic.[/quote]

The Global War On Terror is relevant to us as the Revolutionary War would be relevant to them.

Liberating people just sounds better on TV. This nation has interests to protect, winning hearts and minds is secondary.

1059

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Well, that is where the rubber meats the road, beans, and different people have drawn their lines with different criteria.

A lot of people had their lines crossed long ago, and are waiting. A lot of people had their lines crossed recently, and are waiting. The majority of people are about to have theirs crossed, and then I fear the waiting will stop.

What do you do if your neighbor’s door gets kicked in during the night? Do you cower in fear? Do you ignore it as long as it isn’t you? Or do you rise to their aid, knowing you will probably die?[/quote]

In today’s America, where someone can get raped on a busy city street and have nobody come to their aid…most people would just be glad it’s not them [yet]. [/quote]

They’re probably too busy talking about it on facebook or texting someone. Reminds me of the time I was driving around one night with a friend and seen a car flipped over in a ditch. I jumped out of my car and ran over to it, he’s texting. I checked the car for people, he’s in my car texting. I called 911 and reported the flipped over car, still texting. And then I get back in my car and he says “fuck that, there could have been a dead body in there!” while texting.

1060

I know it’s a yahoo link but it looks like New York is going to be the first state to increase gun control.

http://news.yahoo.com/ny-seals-1st-state-gun-laws-since-newtown-074653716.html

Didn’t think a new thread needed to be done.