Gun Control III

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
saw this on my friends facebook[/quote]

Easy to defeat–Fire extinguishers do not create fire when used. Guns do shoot bullets when fired. You will have to try harder to justify private firearm ownership.[/quote]

The point was, when you need to put a fire out a fire extinguisher can be feet away while a firefighter will likely be miles away. Replace fire with rapist, fire extinguisher with gun, and fire fighter with police officer.

Misuse of a fire extinguisher can result in death too. [/quote]

Proper use of a firearm can result in death.

I understood the point of the picture, but those in favor of firearms can’t argue on the basis of necessity.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
saw this on my friends facebook[/quote]

Easy to defeat–Fire extinguishers do not create fire when used. Guns do shoot bullets when fired. You will have to try harder to justify private firearm ownership.[/quote]

The point was, when you need to put a fire out a fire extinguisher can be feet away while a firefighter will likely be miles away. Replace fire with rapist, fire extinguisher with gun, and fire fighter with police officer.

Misuse of a fire extinguisher can result in death too. [/quote]

Proper use of a firearm can result in death.

I understood the point of the picture, but those in favor of firearms can’t argue on the basis of necessity. [/quote]

And so to can fire extinguishers:

“A case study in the European Journal of Trauma reviewed the outcome of a patient who inhaled dry chemical extinguisher spray into his or her lungs during a car accident and resulting fire. It explains that the extinguishing powder in this case was preventing the lungs from exchanging oxygen, resulting in hypoxia. Extended, severe hypoxia causes the body to build up with lactic acid, resulting in cardiac arrest. Another possible cause of death from dry powder extinguishers is theorized to be acute respiratory distress syndrome, where the powder causes the lungs to build up with fluid.”

http://www.emergencymgmt.com/health/Health-Risks-Fire-Extinguishers.html

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
saw this on my friends facebook[/quote]

Easy to defeat–Fire extinguishers do not create fire when used. Guns do shoot bullets when fired. You will have to try harder to justify private firearm ownership.[/quote]

The point was, when you need to put a fire out a fire extinguisher can be feet away while a firefighter will likely be miles away. Replace fire with rapist, fire extinguisher with gun, and fire fighter with police officer.

Misuse of a fire extinguisher can result in death too. [/quote]

Proper use of a firearm can result in death.

I understood the point of the picture, but those in favor of firearms can’t argue on the basis of necessity. [/quote]

And so to can fire extinguishers:

“A case study in the European Journal of Trauma reviewed the outcome of a patient who inhaled dry chemical extinguisher spray into his or her lungs during a car accident and resulting fire. It explains that the extinguishing powder in this case was preventing the lungs from exchanging oxygen, resulting in hypoxia. Extended, severe hypoxia causes the body to build up with lactic acid, resulting in cardiac arrest. Another possible cause of death from dry powder extinguishers is theorized to be acute respiratory distress syndrome, where the powder causes the lungs to build up with fluid.”

http://www.emergencymgmt.com/health/Health-Risks-Fire-Extinguishers.html
[/quote]

Yes, and water inhaled into the lungs while swimming can also cause death. Both would probably be called accidental deaths.

The primary purpose of firearms is to injure and/or kill. I firmly believe that arguing in favor of firearms on anything other than either(or both) a second amendment or “possession is not a crime”-type basis is a losing battle. If one argues for firearms on a second amendment basis, then one must be prepared to speak against OTHER actions that were not explicitly permitted by the Constitution. If one argues for firearms because he believes that possession is not a crime, then he must be prepared to argue against other laws that punish possession.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So by this definition, felons falling between those ages are also technically members of the Militia. And therefore any laws restricting the rights of felons to own firearms are unconstitutional.

I am using the term “felon” loosely, because anyone who is ARRESTED for domestic dispute, etc… ALSO loses their second amendment rights. It all seems pretty unconstitutional to me. [/quote]

I agree. I believe our legal system is much much too eager to snatch Second Amendment rights at any and every opportunity.[/quote]

Maybe our education system is too able to convince people that good ideas should be legislated.

( Kids come up with ideas for new state laws - silive.com -looks like our masters are going the other way with things, though)…(I’ll leave this link up here, but I think I’m going to start a new thread on it)

[quote]NickViar wrote:
The primary purpose of firearms is to injure and/or kill. [/quote]

Your premise is wrong. The primary purpose of a fire arm (the ones we’re talking about anyway) is defense. Injury/death are secondary.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
The primary purpose of firearms is to injure and/or kill. [/quote]

Your premise is wrong. The primary purpose of a fire arm (the ones we’re talking about anyway) is defense. Injury/death are secondary. [/quote]

How does a firearm provide defense? Visual deterrent? Get a realistic-looking toy.

No, the primary purpose(not USE-that would be training, or sitting in the drawer/closet/case) of most(those not owned by competitive shooters and/or used solely in competition/training) firearms is to injure and/or kill(not always humans, of course). There is absolutely no reason to try to sugarcoat it. There is nothing wrong with it. However, when firearms supporters deny it, it makes them look like police officers telling some guy who is obviously no longer any threat to them to “Stop resisting!”

“Stop the threat” crap is legal mumbo jumbo that the majority of people can see right through(and it makes them feel as though you have something to hide). Have to justify shooting someone? Use it all you want(talk to your lawyer first). Trying to defend the legal right to bear arms? Honesty is a better policy.

[quote]NickViar wrote:
How does a firearm provide defense? [/quote]

By visual deterrence and/or physical deterrence. Yes, if it comes to violence then the gun was used to harm/kill, but that isn’t it’s purpose. It’s purpose, in these situations, is to defend.

Purpose = Defense
Means = Deterrence or damage

I was ignoring hunting for a reason and I’m not sugarcoating anything. Guns are often used to injury and or kill other people. That doesn’t change their purpose in most cases.

[quote]
However, when firearms supporters deny it, it makes them look like police officers telling some guy who is obviously no longer any threat to them to “Stop resisting!” [/quote]

Lol…

[quote]
“Stop the threat” crap is legal mumbo jumbo that the majority of people can see right through(and it makes them feel as though you have something to hide). Have to justify shooting someone? Use it all you want(talk to your lawyer first). Trying to defend the legal right to bear arms? Honesty is a better policy.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with hiding anything. If I have to shoot someone it will be in… defense. That is honesty.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
The primary purpose of firearms is to injure and/or kill. [/quote]

Your premise is wrong. The primary purpose of a fire arm (the ones we’re talking about anyway) is defense. Injury/death are secondary. [/quote]

How does a firearm provide defense? Visual deterrent? Get a realistic-looking toy.

No, the primary purpose(not USE-that would be training, or sitting in the drawer/closet/case) of most(those not owned by competitive shooters and/or used solely in competition/training) firearms is to injure and/or kill(not always humans, of course). There is absolutely no reason to try to sugarcoat it. There is nothing wrong with it. However, when firearms supporters deny it, it makes them look like police officers telling some guy who is obviously no longer any threat to them to “Stop resisting!”

“Stop the threat” crap is legal mumbo jumbo that the majority of people can see right through(and it makes them feel as though you have something to hide). Have to justify shooting someone? Use it all you want(talk to your lawyer first). Trying to defend the legal right to bear arms? Honesty is a better policy.[/quote]

Would you like first hand knowledge? As most of you know, I’m a felon. 25 years ago, I was a stick up kid and ran with a gang of criminals that had taken me in when my own family put me on the street. We made SURE that our targets were unarmed. If I knew someone was armed or seemed like a “hard target”, I would NOT consider them a candidate. That’s common sense. No one wanted to “hurt” anyone, we just wanted to relieve them of their property quickly. Pains were taken to ensure that there was not likely to be anyone with a firearm present during a mission.

We were smart enough to know how to avoid the police. We were smart enough to avoid many common mistakes. We all got caught because of a snitch - not because of any operational mistakes.

We avoided business and citizens that were armed. Firearms are a very effective deterrent to crime. Why risk getting shot robbing someone who is a “wolf”, when there is a “sheep” right down the street?

“Sheep” were easy. “Sheep” were safe. “Sheep” got hit again and again until they got a gun and then we moved on to softer targets.

I’m not making shit up, Nick. I did four years of hard time for armed robbery. I have since seen the error of my ways and turned my life around, but I still remember how I used to think and how I used to operate. And speaking from that perspective, the BEST thing an average citizen can do to protect themselves against crime is own a firearm, know how to use it and let it be known that you are carrying.

When it comes to choosing targets, most criminals are not stupid. They’ll take an easy, unarmed victim every time and twice on Sunday.

Oh, and by the way, we had NO problems getting guns. Back then I could get any kind of gun I wanted. Even today, I’m pretty sure it would take me less than three phone calls to put my hands on a gun if I wanted one bad enough. It’s simply not that hard to get.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Would you like first hand knowledge? As most of you know, I’m a felon. 25 years ago, I was a stick up kid and ran with a gang of criminals that had taken me in when my own family put me on the street. We made SURE that our targets were unarmed. If I knew someone was armed or seemed like a “hard target”, I would NOT consider them a candidate. That’s common sense. No one wanted to “hurt” anyone, we just wanted to relieve them of their property quickly. Pains were taken to ensure that there was not likely to be anyone with a firearm present during a mission.

We were smart enough to know how to avoid the police. We were smart enough to avoid many common mistakes. We all got caught because of a snitch - not because of any operational mistakes.

We avoided business and citizens that were armed. Firearms are a very effective deterrent to crime. Why risk getting shot robbing someone who is a “wolf”, when there is a “sheep” right down the street?

“Sheep” were easy. “Sheep” were safe. “Sheep” got hit again and again until they got a gun and then we moved on to softer targets.

I’m not making shit up, Nick. I did four years of hard time for armed robbery. I have since seen the error of my ways and turned my life around, but I still remember how I used to think and how I used to operate. And speaking from that perspective, the BEST thing an average citizen can do to protect themselves against crime is own a firearm, know how to use it and let it be known that you are carrying.

When it comes to choosing targets, most criminals are not stupid. They’ll take an easy, unarmed victim every time and twice on Sunday.

Oh, and by the way, we had NO problems getting guns. Back then I could get any kind of gun I wanted. Even today, I’m pretty sure it would take me less than three phone calls to put my hands on a gun if I wanted one bad enough. It’s simply not that hard to get. [/quote]

You avoided armed citizens because of what a firearm can do. The PRIMARY PURPOSE of a firearm is to injure and/or kill. Did you respond to the correct post?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It has nothing to do with hiding anything. If I have to shoot someone it will be in… defense. That is honesty.[/quote]

If a man murders his wife, he has not misused his weapon; he has used his weapon to commit a murder. Purpose is the reason for which something exists. Firearms exist to injure and/or kill. They are USED for defense.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Would you like first hand knowledge? As most of you know, I’m a felon. 25 years ago, I was a stick up kid and ran with a gang of criminals that had taken me in when my own family put me on the street. We made SURE that our targets were unarmed. If I knew someone was armed or seemed like a “hard target”, I would NOT consider them a candidate. That’s common sense. No one wanted to “hurt” anyone, we just wanted to relieve them of their property quickly. Pains were taken to ensure that there was not likely to be anyone with a firearm present during a mission.

We were smart enough to know how to avoid the police. We were smart enough to avoid many common mistakes. We all got caught because of a snitch - not because of any operational mistakes.

We avoided business and citizens that were armed. Firearms are a very effective deterrent to crime. Why risk getting shot robbing someone who is a “wolf”, when there is a “sheep” right down the street?

“Sheep” were easy. “Sheep” were safe. “Sheep” got hit again and again until they got a gun and then we moved on to softer targets.

I’m not making shit up, Nick. I did four years of hard time for armed robbery. I have since seen the error of my ways and turned my life around, but I still remember how I used to think and how I used to operate. And speaking from that perspective, the BEST thing an average citizen can do to protect themselves against crime is own a firearm, know how to use it and let it be known that you are carrying.

When it comes to choosing targets, most criminals are not stupid. They’ll take an easy, unarmed victim every time and twice on Sunday.

Oh, and by the way, we had NO problems getting guns. Back then I could get any kind of gun I wanted. Even today, I’m pretty sure it would take me less than three phone calls to put my hands on a gun if I wanted one bad enough. It’s simply not that hard to get. [/quote]

You avoided armed citizens because of what a firearm can do. The PRIMARY PURPOSE of a firearm is to injure and/or kill. Did you respond to the correct post? [/quote]

This is really little more than semantic quibbling, but I’ll play along.

I would argue that the PRIMARY PURPOSE of a firearm is to discharge bullets out of the barrel at high speeds.

The primary application of that function depends entirely on the intent of the person discharging those rounds.

They are definitely good at injuring and killing, which in turn gives birth to multiple applications, both offensive, defensive and completely benign.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It has nothing to do with hiding anything. If I have to shoot someone it will be in… defense. That is honesty.[/quote]

If a man murders his wife, he has not misused his weapon; he has used his weapon to commit a murder. Purpose is the reason for which something exists. Firearms exist to injure and/or kill. They are USED for defense.[/quote]

No. He has committed murder using a gun as the tool or means to commit said murder. He most certainly misused his firearm. The steak knives in my kitchen are used to cut things (Their purpose is to cut food) so if I cut my neighbors throat have I not misused my steak knife? The answer, of course, is yes I misused my steak knife.

Guns were designed for either hunting or defense not murder. That is their purpose 99.99999999% of the time. An inanimate object has only the purpose we bestow upon it and the purpose of a firearm the vast majority of the time is defense.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
This is really little more than semantic quibbling, but I’ll play along.

I would argue that the PRIMARY PURPOSE of a firearm is to discharge bullets out of the barrel at high speeds.

The primary application of that function depends entirely on the intent of the person discharging those rounds.

They are definitely good at injuring and killing, which in turn gives birth to multiple applications, both offensive, defensive and completely benign.
[/quote]

Maybe, but I would say that’s the means by which a firearm fulfills its purpose. A firearm can be used for offense or defense. Its (primary)purpose is to injure/kill. The means by which its purpose is accomplished is the discharge of a projectile.

Nick, are you bipolar? Not sure if you’re just trolling, but you seem to jump the fence in your posts.

Don’t have data for this, just deduction, continuing with what usmc said, the most common use of all guns is at a firing range, shooting inanimate objects.
Just as most pencils are used for writing, we don’t outlaw them because someone used a pencil as an implement to stab someone, you punish/rehabilitate the person.

A good look at firearm culture without all the firearm homicides is Switzerland. They’re raised with firearms, and taught to respect them.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No. He has committed murder using a gun as the tool or means to commit said murder. He most certainly misused his firearm. The steak knives in my kitchen are used to cut things (Their purpose is to cut food) so if I cut my neighbors throat have I not misused my steak knife? The answer, of course, is yes I misused my steak knife.

Guns were designed for either hunting or defense not murder. That is their purpose 99.99999999% of the time. An inanimate object has only the purpose we bestow upon it and the purpose of a firearm the vast majority of the time is defense. [/quote]

Firearms were originally created for military purposes, as far as I know.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Would you like first hand knowledge? As most of you know, I’m a felon. 25 years ago, I was a stick up kid and ran with a gang of criminals that had taken me in when my own family put me on the street. We made SURE that our targets were unarmed. If I knew someone was armed or seemed like a “hard target”, I would NOT consider them a candidate. That’s common sense. No one wanted to “hurt” anyone, we just wanted to relieve them of their property quickly. Pains were taken to ensure that there was not likely to be anyone with a firearm present during a mission.

We were smart enough to know how to avoid the police. We were smart enough to avoid many common mistakes. We all got caught because of a snitch - not because of any operational mistakes.

We avoided business and citizens that were armed. Firearms are a very effective deterrent to crime. Why risk getting shot robbing someone who is a “wolf”, when there is a “sheep” right down the street?

“Sheep” were easy. “Sheep” were safe. “Sheep” got hit again and again until they got a gun and then we moved on to softer targets.

I’m not making shit up, Nick. I did four years of hard time for armed robbery. I have since seen the error of my ways and turned my life around, but I still remember how I used to think and how I used to operate. And speaking from that perspective, the BEST thing an average citizen can do to protect themselves against crime is own a firearm, know how to use it and let it be known that you are carrying.

When it comes to choosing targets, most criminals are not stupid. They’ll take an easy, unarmed victim every time and twice on Sunday.

Oh, and by the way, we had NO problems getting guns. Back then I could get any kind of gun I wanted. Even today, I’m pretty sure it would take me less than three phone calls to put my hands on a gun if I wanted one bad enough. It’s simply not that hard to get. [/quote]

You avoided armed citizens because of what a firearm can do. The PRIMARY PURPOSE of a firearm is to injure and/or kill. Did you respond to the correct post? [/quote]

I don’t have a whole lot of time, but I’ll play. Below is the post which you conveniently left out after you questioned whether or not I replied to the right post:

How does a firearm provide defense? Visual deterrent? Get a realistic-looking toy.

No, the primary purpose(not USE-that would be training, or sitting in the drawer/closet/case) of most(those not owned by competitive shooters and/or used solely in competition/training) firearms is to injure and/or kill(not always humans, of course). There is absolutely no reason to try to sugarcoat it. There is nothing wrong with it. However, when firearms supporters deny it, it makes them look like police officers telling some guy who is obviously no longer any threat to them to “Stop resisting!”

“Stop the threat” crap is legal mumbo jumbo that the majority of people can see right through(and it makes them feel as though you have something to hide). Have to justify shooting someone? Use it all you want(talk to your lawyer first). Trying to defend the legal right to bear arms? Honesty is a better policy.

Yes, I responded to the right post.

Of course the primary purpose of a firearm is to kill. DUH… Why else have one? If someone is going to attack you or attempt to rob you, a person has a natural right to defend themselves and their property with deadly force. A gun accommodates this nicely. What is the problem with that?

The point I was illustrating is that when I was in my law breaking days, I AVOIDED people who were likely to try and kill me while I was robbing them. A “toy gun” would not have cut the mustard, buddy.

So, why are you engaging in this crazy twisting of words? I don’t think anyone is silly enough to argue that guns aren’t for killing people. A far better line of argument is whether or not we have the right to defend ourselves with deadly force. I, and the majority of people with any modicum of intelligence, would argue that we do.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Nick, are you bipolar? Not sure if you’re just trolling, but you seem to jump the fence in your posts.

Don’t have data for this, just deduction, continuing with what usmc said, the most common use of all guns is at a firing range, shooting inanimate objects.
Just as most pencils are used for writing, we don’t outlaw them because someone used a pencil as an implement to stab someone, you punish/rehabilitate the person.

A good look at firearm culture without all the firearm homicides is Switzerland. They’re raised with firearms, and taught to respect them.
[/quote]

I didn’t jump the fence. I started off playing devil’s advocate. Yes, the most common use of firearms is practice. Their primary purpose is killing. They are tools of war. There is no reason to state otherwise, as there is nothing wrong with that purpose.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No. He has committed murder using a gun as the tool or means to commit said murder. He most certainly misused his firearm. The steak knives in my kitchen are used to cut things (Their purpose is to cut food) so if I cut my neighbors throat have I not misused my steak knife? The answer, of course, is yes I misused my steak knife.

Guns were designed for either hunting or defense not murder. That is their purpose 99.99999999% of the time. An inanimate object has only the purpose we bestow upon it and the purpose of a firearm the vast majority of the time is defense. [/quote]

Firearms were originally created for military purposes, as far as I know.[/quote]

And their military function is defense, in most cases.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Yes, I responded to the right post.

Of course the primary purpose of a firearm is to kill. DUH… Why else have one? If someone is going to attack you or attempt to rob you, a person has a natural right to defend themselves and their property with deadly force. A gun accommodates this nicely. What is the problem with that?

The point I was illustrating is that when I was in my law breaking days, I AVOIDED people who were likely to try and kill me while I was robbing them. A “toy gun” would not have cut the mustard, buddy.

So, why are you engaging in this crazy twisting of words? I don’t think anyone is silly enough to argue that guns aren’t for killing people. A far better line of argument is whether or not we have the right to defend ourselves with deadly force. I, and the majority of people with any modicum of intelligence, would argue that we do.[/quote]

USMC was arguing that the primary purpose is not to kill, but to defend. You’re making the same argument as I, and that’s why I asked if you were sure that you had responded to the correct post.