[quote]pushharder wrote:
Men with backgrounds in cattle ranching look at the world much differently than elitist-wannabe journalists from the Northeast, I reckon.
[/quote]
Fuck you too.
And say what you’d like about the Northeast and us wannabe-elitists, the word “squeal” doesn’t normally come to my mind when I think about what I want to do to the guy I’m talking politics with. Maybe I would get it if I were a farmer.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I have made it a point to edit quotes because a pet peeve of mine on T-Nation is the walls and walls of text that can accumulate especially over several pages of debate. It’s too cluttered. In that process I’m sure sometimes I unintentionally delete something the quoted person thought was relevant. If I do intentionally delete it it’s because I thought it irrelevant and in need of tidying up.[/quote]
In their defense, sophistry to hide bullshit takes a lot of text and big words.
Civilian disarmanent efforts do little besides make people victims. This is a fact.
For exaxmple, mass shootings in schools went up 500% since Congress made sure children in schools have no adequate means of defense. This is why it is subject to repeal:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113:H.R.35:
All but the most dishonest admit that the proposed new “universal background check” would not have stopped Newton or almost any massacre. The real purpose is to create a registry of firearms. (The links on this are above and come from Obama’s justice department.)
The opponents think the registry is a good thing, because they favor civilian disarmament.
They should be honest, admit they want only the government actors to be armed, and they would not have to use so much text.
Of course they won’t, because if they were intellectually honest, they would not be liberals.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Of course they won’t, because if they were intellectually honest, they would not be liberals.[/quote]
Intellectually honest–like posting childish memes about Nazis in a thread about whether or not kids can keep guns in their college dorms? Trivializing one of the darker chapters in human history and making yourself look like melodramatic fool all at once–is that what I should shoot for?
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Of course they won’t, because if they were intellectually honest, they would not be liberals.[/quote]
Intellectually honest–like posting childish memes about Nazis in a thread about whether or not kids can keep guns in their college dorms? Trivializing one of the darker chapters in human history and making yourself look like melodramatic fool all at once–is that what I should shoot for?[/quote]
To be fair the thread is about Gun Control; although, it turned into a thread about guns on campus (wasn’t that the knife control thread?). Anyway, he does have a point. Nazi Germany did begin their systematic genocide of the Jewish population through gun control. What makes America any differnt?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Of course they won’t, because if they were intellectually honest, they would not be liberals.[/quote]
Intellectually honest–like posting childish memes about Nazis in a thread about whether or not kids can keep guns in their college dorms? Trivializing one of the darker chapters in human history and making yourself look like melodramatic fool all at once–is that what I should shoot for?[/quote]
To be fair the thread is about Gun Control; although, it turned into a thread about guns on campus (wasn’t that the knife control thread?). Anyway, he does have a point. Nazi Germany did begin their systematic genocide of the Jewish population through gun control. What makes America any differnt?[/quote]
What upsets so-called liberals, is a dictatorship is the end game, and they know it in their hearts.
They want civilian disarmed because the armed populace of America is an impediment to their goal.
They fear freedom, as it comes with responsibility.
They fear weapons, as weapons are an adult responsibility.
They want to be controlled, free from hard choices. This is the childish heart of any modern “liberal.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Of course they won’t, because if they were intellectually honest, they would not be liberals.[/quote]
Intellectually honest–like posting childish memes about Nazis in a thread about whether or not kids can keep guns in their college dorms? Trivializing one of the darker chapters in human history and making yourself look like melodramatic fool all at once–is that what I should shoot for?[/quote]
To be fair the thread is about Gun Control; although, it turned into a thread about guns on campus (wasn’t that the knife control thread?). Anyway, he does have a point. Nazi Germany did begin their systematic genocide of the Jewish population through gun control. What makes America any differnt?[/quote]
I tried to edit that comment away to say ‘nevermind, who cares’–because honestly I don’t. But the edit didn’t take, so oh well. But no, I do not think things like that serve any kind of purpose other than making the person who posts them look frivolous at the very best. And I find it especially ironic that somebody would throw a holocaust meme up in the middle of a debate about guns in college dorms and then grandstand about “intellectual honesty.”
But it doesn’t matter, and this is honestly a debate that has run its course as far as I’m concerned. I’m thoroughly unconvinced by the arguments against background checks, and God knows nobody’s coming over to my side. So whatever. I would guess that we’ll get the Manchin-Toomey plan and that’ll be that.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
What upsets so-called liberals, is a dictatorship is the end game, and they know it in their hearts.
They want civilian disarmed because the armed populace of America is an impediment to their goal.
They fear freedom, as it comes with responsibility.
They fear weapons, as weapons are an adult responsibility.
They want to be controlled, free from hard choices. This is the childish heart of any modern “liberal.”[/quote]
Childish, like I said, is posting holocaust memes. In fact, it doesn’t really get much more childish than that. And speaking in platitudes about an entire political party “fearing freedom.” But go on ahead.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Of course they won’t, because if they were intellectually honest, they would not be liberals.[/quote]
Intellectually honest–like posting childish memes about Nazis in a thread about whether or not kids can keep guns in their college dorms? Trivializing one of the darker chapters in human history and making yourself look like melodramatic fool all at once–is that what I should shoot for?[/quote]
To be fair the thread is about Gun Control; although, it turned into a thread about guns on campus (wasn’t that the knife control thread?). Anyway, he does have a point. Nazi Germany did begin their systematic genocide of the Jewish population through gun control. What makes America any differnt?[/quote]
I tried to edit that comment away to say ‘nevermind, who cares’–because honestly I don’t. But the edit didn’t take, so oh well. But no, I do not think things like that serve any kind of purpose other than making the person who posts them look frivolous at the very best. And I find it especially ironic that somebody would throw a holocaust meme up in the middle of a debate about guns in college dorms and then grandstand about “intellectual honesty.”
But it doesn’t matter, and this is honestly a debate that has run its course as far as I’m concerned. I’m thoroughly unconvinced by the arguments against background checks, and God knows nobody’s coming over to my side. So whatever. I would guess that we’ll get the Manchin-Toomey plan and that’ll be that.[/quote]
Perhaps you and I can talk? My issue isn’t with background checks, but what comes after background checks. SMH do you believe background checks will stop crime? I don’t because I think those that are willing to break one law will break 10 others if it serves their purpose. So what happens when background checks, which I think will pass, don’t stop the next school shooting? Where do we go from there? My instinct say that those in the national registry will have their weapons confiscated, which to me is a far greater threat than any mentally ill person with a gun.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
My issue isn’t with background checks… [/quote]
It should be. What they will set up will be a painfully slow, intentionally inept, system designed to get false positives, with little recourse for the innocent who get caught in its web.
The process to get a weapon will turn into a six month slog — and they will demand “more money” to fix it.
They’re already doing this in NY. Innocent, non-crazy, people are getting their weapons seized at gun point.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Perhaps you and I can talk? My issue isn’t with background checks, but what comes after background checks. SMH do you believe background checks will stop crime? I don’t because I think those that are willing to break one law will break 10 others if it serves their purpose. So what happens when background checks, which I think will pass, don’t stop the next school shooting? Where do we go from there? My instinct say that those in the national registry will have their weapons confiscated, which to me is a far greater threat than any mentally ill person with a gun. [/quote]
I do not think that anything can “stop crime.” Heroin’s illegality doesn’t stop people from shooting up. The British have strict laws against sexual molestation of children and yet Jimmy Savile preyed upon kids for decades. We could just give up, but instead we (wisely) pass law in spite of the fact that crime and evil and deviance will never die.
With the passage of a background check, some people who shouldn’t have guns will be deprived of them. And some people will get them anyway. How many of each? I don’t know; neither does anybody else. What I do know is this: if just one in ten sales blocked by the check system since 1998 didn’t go on to become a black market transaction–that is, if nine out of the ten people who were denied a sale because of a failed background check went out and bought a gun illegally anyway, and just one didn’t, either because he couldn’t find one or thought it too risky or just plain didn’t–then 200,000 gun sales to illegals/criminals/crazies have been totally blocked by the background check system. That is a good thing in my mind.
Again: why have a law against selling a gun to a criminal and then not have gun salesmen check to see if the person he’s selling to is a criminal? Pretty much the only way for an illegal transaction to go down at a gun show right now is if the guy who’s buying happens to say, “Oh yeah, this is awesome because i’m a criminal/illegal alien/I was involuntarily institutionalized for most of my adult life.” That’s really stupid. Either let anybody who wants to buy a gun, or enforce laws against selling to people who aren’t supposed to have them.
Jewbacca for Senate!!!
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
My issue isn’t with background checks… [/quote]
It should be. What they will set up will be a painfully slow, intentionally inept, system designed to get false positives, with little recourse for the innocent who get caught in its web.
The process to get a weapon will turn into a six month slog — and they will demand “more money” to fix it.
They’re already doing this in NY. Innocent, non-crazy, people are getting their weapons seized at gun point.[/quote]
Right, which I why I said the next step (gun seizure) is what worries me.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Perhaps you and I can talk? My issue isn’t with background checks, but what comes after background checks. SMH do you believe background checks will stop crime? I don’t because I think those that are willing to break one law will break 10 others if it serves their purpose. So what happens when background checks, which I think will pass, don’t stop the next school shooting? Where do we go from there? My instinct say that those in the national registry will have their weapons confiscated, which to me is a far greater threat than any mentally ill person with a gun. [/quote]
I do not think that anything can “stop crime.” Heroin’s illegality doesn’t stop people from shooting up. The British have strict laws against sexual molestation of children and yet Jimmy Savile preyed upon kids for decades. We could just give up, but instead we (wisely) pass law in spite of the fact that crime and evil and deviance will never die.
With the passage of a background check, some people who shouldn’t have guns will be deprived of them. And some people will get them anyway. How many of each? I don’t know; neither does anybody else. What I do know is this: if just one in ten sales blocked by the check system since 1998 didn’t go on to become a black market transaction–that is, if nine out of the ten people who were denied a sale because of a failed background check went out and bought a gun illegally anyway, and just one didn’t, either because he couldn’t find one or thought it too risky or just plain didn’t–then 200,000 gun sales to illegals/criminals/crazies have been totally blocked by the background check system. That is a good thing in my mind.
Again: why have a law against selling a gun to a criminal and then not have gun salesmen check to see if the person he’s selling to is a criminal? Pretty much the only way for an illegal transaction to go down at a gun show right now is if the guy who’s buying happens to say, “Oh yeah, this is awesome because i’m a criminal/illegal alien/I was involuntarily institutionalized for most of my adult life.” That’s really stupid. Either let anybody who wants to buy a gun, or enforce laws against selling to people who aren’t supposed to have them.[/quote]
200,000 is only 1.2% of guns sales a year. Is less than 2% worth opening the door to infringement on the 2nd?
Again, the gun show thing is state specific; in MD you have to get a background check to buy a handgun at a gun show. I don’t know what other states do.
I don’t think there’s a point in having a law against firearm ownership by convicted felons. They are either a) rehabilitated and will be responsible with a gun or b) not rehabilitated and should never have been let out of prison. Either way I don’t believe the law should be based on what felons do, but rather what law abide citizens do.
smh said: Either let anybody who wants to buy a gun, or enforce laws against selling to people who aren’t supposed to have them.
Great point. If a law exists, it should be enforced blindly and uniformly. I agree 10,000%. That’s why I support abolishing mandatory background checks entirely. If the seller wants to sell to someone, let them. If you disagree with that seller selling, then find someone who does it differently and give him/her your business.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
What upsets so-called liberals, is a dictatorship is the end game, and they know it in their hearts.
They want civilian disarmed because the armed populace of America is an impediment to their goal.
They fear freedom, as it comes with responsibility.
They fear weapons, as weapons are an adult responsibility.
They want to be controlled, free from hard choices. This is the childish heart of any modern “liberal.”[/quote]
Childish, like I said, is posting holocaust memes. In fact, it doesn’t really get much more childish than that. And speaking in platitudes about an entire political party “fearing freedom.” But go on ahead.[/quote]
You are out of pocket for the suggestions you are making to a Jewish man.
The US has never had a foreign invasion (other than the 9/11 attacks), you have not seen foreign soldiers, tanks, planes, and the mass rounding up of your people. You have also not seen or heard stories of things that I am sure Jewbacca is well aware of. I cringe at the stories my grandparents told me of the Nazi invasion of Italy. I am grateful that those things have not, and hopefully will never happen here, but you must be considerate of the things others have endured.
I find your comment about this topic disrespectful and lacking foundation towards a man and a people who have endured what they have.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
What upsets so-called liberals, is a dictatorship is the end game, and they know it in their hearts.
They want civilian disarmed because the armed populace of America is an impediment to their goal.
They fear freedom, as it comes with responsibility.
They fear weapons, as weapons are an adult responsibility.
They want to be controlled, free from hard choices. This is the childish heart of any modern “liberal.”[/quote]
Childish, like I said, is posting holocaust memes. In fact, it doesn’t really get much more childish than that. And speaking in platitudes about an entire political party “fearing freedom.” But go on ahead.[/quote]
You are out of pocket for the suggestions you are making to a Jewish man.
The US has never had a foreign invasion (other than the 9/11 attacks), you have not seen foreign soldiers, tanks, planes, and the mass rounding up of your people. You have also not seen or heard stories of things that I am sure Jewbacca is well aware of. I cringe at the stories my grandparents told me of the Nazi invasion of Italy. I am grateful that those things have not, and hopefully will never happen here, but you must be considerate of the things others have endured.
I find your comment about this topic disrespectful and lacking foundation towards a man and a people who have endured what they have.
[/quote]
He’s giving Jewbacca a hard time about a Meme he posted. I really don’t think he is trying to diminish what actually occurred during the holocaust.
This is some really good pro-gun propaganda.
The part about the history of gun confiscation and the resulting extermination of 52 million unarmed people in the 20th Century was a real eye-opener.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I find your comment about this topic disrespectful and lacking foundation towards a man and a people who have endured what they have.
[/quote]
Nah, it’s indicative of the Democrat Party.
All a Jewish person needs to know about the core base of the Democrat Party is shown here at 1:05 when the Democrat Delegats voted on whether Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of Israel.
Civilian Disarmament is but a tool to the end goals of the Democrat wacko-base.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I find your comment about this topic disrespectful and lacking foundation towards a man and a people who have endured what they have.
[/quote]
Nah, it’s indicative of the Democrat Party.
All a Jewish person needs to know about the core base of the Democrat Party is shown here at 1:05 when the Democrat Delegats voted on whether Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of Israel.
Civilian Disarmament is but a tool to the end goals of the Democrat wacko-base.[/quote]
But that seems a bit hypocritical from the party of tolerance.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This is some really good pro-gun propaganda.
The part about the history of gun confiscation and the resulting extermination of 52 million unarmed people in the 20th Century was a real eye-opener.[/quote]
LIFTIC, when I watched(some of) that video, one thing I noticed was that those government atrocities were not committed in 2013 USA, so how is that video applicable to us? This is the United States of America; we’re not in Nazi Germany or Stalin’s USSR. When my government tells me it needs to do something, I don’t question it. If this country ever starts marching 27 year old white males named NickViar on T-Nation into concentration camps, THEN I will agree that something needs to be done. Posting that video leads me to believe that you might just be the kind of anti-government nutjob who needs to lose some rights.
Good video, I’m just trying to respond for the other side so they don’t have to.