Guitar Players on T-Nation!?

Off Topic
41

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I also like the modal theory because when you deal with the harmonic minor “set” of scales, you just learn another 7 fingers for those, much like you did for the diatonic modes. The same is true for the melodic set.[/quote]

It kind of gets to the point where you’re not really playing the patterns anymore, but your brain just hits the notes your mind hears…I sometimes think, “okay…I’m in E…where does the mixolydian scale start?”…but usually I just grab a note on the neck that I want to play and then my fingers go where they’re supposed to based on what I’m hearing…

42

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
If you are performing and someone says to solo or improvise on Em7, you had damn well better know what that is and what will and will not work ahead of time. You can’t figure that out by playing by ear during a performance.

Quite right, but I didn’t mean to imply that one didn’t need to know theory. There is a difference between knowing why one might want to play an A dominant arpeggio over an Em7 and knowing what sounds good for the moment.

Virtually any note can be played over anything it’s just a matter of why one would want to. That is what I meant about theory clouding ones playing.[/quote]

Very true, but unless you know what you are doing, the time to figure out what sounds good is not while performing. So you either know what sounds good through past experience or through theory. And if you are suddenly faced with a progression you aren’t familiar with, theory is all you have to know what “should” sound good or work.

IMO, having a good ear and knowing theory are the basis for a great musician.

43

[quote]sen say wrote:
njrusmc wrote:
I also like the modal theory because when you deal with the harmonic minor “set” of scales, you just learn another 7 fingers for those, much like you did for the diatonic modes. The same is true for the melodic set.

It kind of gets to the point where you’re not really playing the patterns anymore, but your brain just hits the notes your mind hears…I sometimes think, “okay…I’m in E…where does the mixolydian scale start?”…but usually I just grab a note on the neck that I want to play and then my fingers go where they’re supposed to based on what I’m hearing…[/quote]

The thing about modes is that they are all the same notes, just different starting positions. So if you play a strong chord tone triad you can make a mode sound a little different. But to make the modes really work it depends on the chord you are playing it over. This is particularly useful in Jazz.

So try playing one of the modes over a major chord in the same key and then alter one note and see how it changes things. Also, if you just play the scale you will sound like you are just playing a scale. So the best approach is to leave out notes to make it more interesting, like five note modal (pentonic) scales, that is where it get’s interesting.

44

[quote]NickRageSkursky wrote:
alright! another real life KSE fan! the only stuff folks listen to around here is rap and that shit.

i’m actually very excited because one of my buddies offered to teach me to play and it’s something i’ve always wanted to do.[/quote]

hell yeah, KSE gets me pumped… i kno a guy thats been playing about 17 years and he plays KSE and other similar types of music in his bands… ive been trying to get him to teach me but hes a busy guy.

45

Real men play drums, cuz we’re good with our sticks!

leaves

46

[quote]Rattler wrote:
Real men play drums, cuz we’re good with our sticks!

leaves[/quote]

How do you know when the stage is level?

The drummer is drooling out of BOTH sides of his mouth…

Ba-dum, SPLASH!

47

[quote]Rattler wrote:
Real men play drums, cuz we’re good with our sticks!

leaves[/quote]

Fuck yeah! I am going to get my daughter the Gene Krupa starter kit when she turns five.

48

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Rattler wrote:
Real men play drums, cuz we’re good with our sticks!

leaves

How do you know when the stage is level?

The drummer is drooling out of BOTH sides of his mouth…

Ba-dum, SPLASH![/quote]

It’s funny, cuz it’s true :frowning:

49

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
The thing about modes is that they are all the same notes, just different starting positions. So if you play a strong chord tone triad you can make a mode sound a little different. But to make the modes really work it depends on the chord you are playing it over.
[/quote]

True…kinda…the underlying chords ARE the song…what you’re soloing with…is…I don’t know…merely giving a voice to the screaming taking place underneath…it’s like…everyday…you hear this noise…people bitching about this and that…people telling you it’s dumb to eat so much…people telling you deadlifts are bad for your back…and then…all of a sudden you hear this lone voice…singing…and as the underlying voices change…

the lone voice continues to sing and …even though you play the same 3 notes over and over again…it gets more and more beautiful…and…all that Steve Vai and other virtuoso shit doesn’t count at all because you’re just…wailing and rolling with the same 3 notes over and over again while the noise fades away and joins with your notes…and…it’s all good.

Anyway…you should all check out a DVD called “SWING SWING SWING Classic Tracks From the Great Big Bands !” I’m sure everyone has read about Hendrix and how he made the guitar a solo instrument…watch this DVD and see what it was like BEFORE it was a solo instrument…

50

[quote]True…kinda…the underlying chords ARE the song…what you’re soloing with…is…I don’t know…merely giving a voice to the screaming taking place underneath…it’s like…everyday…you hear this noise…people bitching about this and that…people telling you it’s dumb to eat so much…people telling you deadlifts are bad for your back…and then…all of a sudden you hear this lone voice…singing…and as the underlying voices change…

the lone voice continues to sing and …even though you play the same 3 notes over and over again…it gets more and more beautiful…and…all that Steve Vai and other virtuoso shit doesn’t count at all because you’re just…wailing and rolling with the same 3 notes over and over again while the noise fades away and joins with your notes…and…it’s all good.[/quote]

Are you sure this wouldn’t be better suited to the “experiences with recreational drugs” thread?

51

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
boyscout wrote:
Theory, used wisely, can only make you a better musician.

Yes. That is not what I meant. Not all players are aiming to be Yngwie Malmstein.

My favorite player of all time is Django Reinhardt. If you had told him he was playing a E mixolydian over an Am6 during a rendition of Dark Eyes he wouldn’t know what your are talking about. He would laugh, take a drag of his smoke and make us all look like a bunch of silly amateurs.[/quote]

I really don’t understand your point here. We do not need theory because we are not aspiring to the level of Yngwie Malsteem? What does the fact that Yngwie Malsteem knows a lot of theory have to do with anything? We do not need theory because Django didn’t? Why? Are we all mad gypsy geniuses?

Theory made Malsteem a better player. Django had an ear that none of us possess and an imagination that none of us possess.

52

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Edit: For a new guitar, I suggest ESP LTD guitars. The best guitars for the money, hands down. You can spend 900 USD on an Ibanez Prestige and get low quality hardware and pay for the brand, or a 60 USD ESP LTD MH400NT (which I play in my videos) and get excellent quality everything. Best guitar for the money, hands down. Even if you cannot afford a 400 level, even a 250 would be good for 400 bucks. $400 would buy you a really shitty Ibanez.[/quote]

Got to disagree here, ESP do make good guitars though. I paid around 750 for my Ibanez RG550 20th anniv Prestige (ebay) and it is hands down the best, most comfortable and well constructed guitar I’ve played. I wouldn’t buy an ibanez for 400 dollars either.

Pretty much the first thing my music teacher taught me (after the interval system) was the modes. After the interval system, the whole guitar neck really came “alive” to me, I could learn scales (like melodic minor) and construct chords on the fly. It wasn’t difficult to learn 14 different patterns (“box” and 3nps forms respectively) and I find them really useful.

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You don’t *have to read music, but you should.

You don’t *have to have to learn all the notes on the fretboard, but you should.

You don’t *have to know intervals and chord inversions, but you should.

You don’t *have to know how to construct scales, but you should.

You don’t *have to know the same chords in several positions, but you should.

You don’t *have to know how to finger pick, but you should.

You don’t *have to know theory, but you should.

You don’t *have to know the modes, but you should.

You don’t *have to practice 5 hours a day, but you should.

HOWEVER you HAVE to develop your ear so that at very minimum, you can learn the songs you want to play, or translate the original music that your brain develops. Oh, and you’ll need to know where those tones are on the fretboard.

All that other stuff REALLY helps, though :slight_smile:

IMO beginners can’t go wrong with Epiphones or Mexican Fenders. For more crunch, the Deans, Schecters, and the low end Jacksons seem like nice guitars.

Personally, I’m saving my pennies for a Johnny Hiland PRS :wink:

54

[quote]Phyrgian wrote:

Got to disagree here, ESP do make good guitars though. I paid around 750 for my Ibanez RG550 20th anniv Prestige (ebay) and it is hands down the best, most comfortable and well constructed guitar I’ve played. I wouldn’t buy an ibanez for 400 dollars either.
[/quote]

Don’t get me wrong, I respect Ibanez overall. I just checked out the guitar you spoke of and it looks like a sweet piece. My argument is that for $600-700 you can get a guitar with better …

  1. Quality wood (mahogany or alder w/ a maple top of sorts)
  2. Neck construction: neck-thru or set-thru (correct me if I am wrong, but your RG is bolt-on)
  3. Tuners (LTD 400’s and up have Grovers or Shallers, not imitation ones)
  4. Most importantly: pickups! (EMG’s for life)

Back in January 2008 I bought my MH400NT for $550 NEW and it has all the things I just mentioned. The prices are up a little bit now, though.

Ibanez construction is excellent, just as good as ESP for the most part. My argument was simply that with high-end LTD’s you get much better hardware for the buck.

55

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
You don’t *have to read music, but you should.

You don’t *have to have to learn all the notes on the fretboard, but you should.

You don’t *have to know intervals and chord inversions, but you should.

You don’t *have to know how to construct scales, but you should.

You don’t *have to know the same chords in several positions, but you should.

You don’t *have to know how to finger pick, but you should.

You don’t *have to know theory, but you should.

You don’t *have to know the modes, but you should.

You don’t *have to practice 5 hours a day, but you should.

HOWEVER you HAVE to develop your ear so that at very minimum, you can learn the songs you want to play, or translate the original music that your brain develops. Oh, and you’ll need to know where those tones are on the fretboard.

All that other stuff REALLY helps, though :slight_smile:

IMO beginners can’t go wrong with Epiphones or Mexican Fenders. For more crunch, the Deans, Schecters, and the low end Jacksons seem like nice guitars.

Personally, I’m saving my pennies for a Johnny Hiland PRS ;)[/quote]

Very good post.

For beginners an Eastwood sidejack kicks ass.

56

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Are you sure this wouldn’t be better suited to the “experiences with recreational drugs” thread?

[/quote]

If gin, campari and sweet vermouth count as recreational drugs…then…yes…I was a bit in the bag…but…I was FEELING IT ! yeah…

57

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

Don’t get me wrong, I respect Ibanez overall. I just checked out the guitar you spoke of and it looks like a sweet piece. My argument is that for $600-700 you can get a guitar with better …

  1. Quality wood (mahogany or alder w/ a maple top of sorts)
  2. Neck construction: neck-thru or set-thru (correct me if I am wrong, but your RG is bolt-on)
  3. Tuners (LTD 400’s and up have Grovers or Shallers, not imitation ones)
  4. Most importantly: pickups! (EMG’s for life)

Back in January 2008 I bought my MH400NT for $550 NEW and it has all the things I just mentioned. The prices are up a little bit now, though.

Ibanez construction is excellent, just as good as ESP for the most part. My argument was simply that with high-end LTD’s you get much better hardware for the buck.[/quote]

Yes, the neck is bolt on. The body is basswood, which I actually like because it is light for its size. The tuners (which don’t matter that much because it’s a double locking trem, original edge is the best!) are grovers. I actually really like the pickups, I am considering changing out the two humbuckers for Dimarzio PAF pros, they are ibanez brand pickups but I think they’re awesome. They clean up surprisingly well (especially the single coil) and it makes the guitar pretty versatile. I do own an epiphone les paul I “souped up” with locking tuners, new toggle and EMG 85/81 (85 in bridge) and it has awesomely thick metal tone.

the only “issues” I have with it are the bolt on neck (I would prefer neck thru, although it doesn’t hinder it’s playing at all for me) and the trem is floating which makes for less sustain.

I think schecters are pretty good for the money, I considered an OFR hellraiser before the ibanez, the necks are more strat like than the wizard/wizard II necks on the ibanez. I myself prefer the orignal wizard neck on my ibanez, very comfortable. I have been very impressed with some ESP stuff, the eclipse I tried with EMGs smoked.

58

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
HOWEVER you HAVE to develop your ear so that at very minimum, you can learn the songs you want to play, or translate the original music that your brain develops. Oh, and you’ll need to know where those tones are on the fretboard.

[/quote]

Great post all around.

Aural training is something everyone should do, but few do…there’s probably hundreds of web site exercises out there…I started by playing the major scale and singing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 as you play those notes…then…you sing it again, but stop before you get to the 8th tone and try to sing the correct tone…then…play the tone to make sure you’re on target…do this for all the tones for like 10 minutes each practice session…you’ll be surprised how quickly you can then learn songs you hear on the radio.

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Theory made Malsteem a better player. Django had an ear that none of us possess and an imagination that none of us possess.[/quote]

Practice made malmsteen a better player and theory just added to his musical vocabulary whether it sounds good or not.

That is precisely the point of sounding good verses being technically proficient.

If you read the last statement of my first post I stated that there are very few virtuosos. In fact, Django practiced hours on end and developed his ears at very early age. He could have cared less about theory and it certainly had nothing to do with his genius manoeuvring.

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[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
Theory made Malsteem a better player. Django had an ear that none of us possess and an imagination that none of us possess.

Practice made malmsteen a better player and theory just added to his musical vocabulary whether it sounds good or not.

That is precisely the point of sounding good verses being technically proficient.

If you read the last statement of my first post I stated that there are very few virtuosos. In fact, Django practiced hours on end and developed his ears at very early age. He could have cared less about theory and it certainly had nothing to do with his genius manoeuvring.[/quote]

I think the point is that just like lifting, most people are not genetically gifted. So who gives a carp if Arnold ate ho-ho’s all day, did 300 sets per body part, etc… Just because everything worked for him doesn’t mean it will for the 90% of us average guys.

So gifted musicians can play great all the time with no knowledge of theory at all, but for the rest of us, theory is what sets the foundation for being competent.

And from a realist, getting paid, perspective, you have to know what the hell you are doing if you are playing with a band. And how most pro’s understand that is through the language of theory. IF you say “dude, I just put my fingers here” or “the voices in my head tell me what to play”, you will not be asked back.