Guaranteed Cure for Racism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
601

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I’m not a masochist and abstain from self-flagellation Chris. I think that’s a ridiculous notion, and a malignant one.

Ofcourse suffering is not just feeling pain, physically or emotionally, suffering is the rejection of pain; “I don’t want this. Why me?”.

I believe that institutionalised religion does not teach people how to alleviate suffering for themselves, but merely covers it with a comfortblanket without really adressing the issue.

If you have few problems to begin with this is fine ofcourse, but for someone with a mountain of troubles the story is different.[/quote]

There’s something to be said for a comfort blanket.

That said, religion can actually create and perpetuate unnecessary suffering by judging and punishing people based on unproven beliefs. For example, there have been many gay suicides because people couldn’t reconcile their religious beliefs with their sexual orientation.
[/quote]

A comfort blanket is not a solution, and religion is not a solution to personal suffering.

As you said, it often creates more suffering.
[/quote]

I don’t think it’s either/or, but can be both.

Just because religion can cause suffering doesn’t mean it doesn’t help alleviate suffering in some cases.

For example, faith can provide a cancer patient with peace of mind, reduced stress, less pain and anxiety, and a stronger will to live. All good things.

However, if faith causes the believer to forego medical treatments, it can actually hurt them more than it helps.

Tiribulus recently shared how his faith has helped him through a difficult period, where he otherwise would have given up hope. How is that a bad thing?[/quote]

On a personal note, I actually cured myself of alcoholism. As in, I was, for years, the worst kind of alcoholic on an ever-downward spiral of deeper and deeper addiction. I was the kind of alcoholic that people eventually have interventions for, though thankfully I had not yet reached that point.

Today I am happy to say that I am a well adjusted NON-alcoholic, completely cured of that terrible malady. I actually still drink, even, but the demon that used to wait for me to take my first drink has been, ahem, exorcised.

I came to my cure through a combination of the most fervent, tireless prayer and the discovery of a system that actually works. Now, I firmly believe if had not put in all of that prayer time, I would not have discovered the system. But during the entire time I was praying, literally near despair for years and years, thinking my prayers would never be answered no magical cure came. The answer to those prayers came in the form of a very secular, scientific method of recovery.

And believe me, the suffering I was doing was in NO way edifying. Anyway my point is that sometimes, eph, you paint religious folk out to be these cardboard cut-out humans who think and act only one way. I think, if nothing else, our conversations here should have given you a few clues that we are a bit more three dimensional than that.

602

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I’m not a masochist and abstain from self-flagellation Chris. I think that’s a ridiculous notion, and a malignant one.

Ofcourse suffering is not just feeling pain, physically or emotionally, suffering is the rejection of pain; “I don’t want this. Why me?”.

I believe that institutionalised religion does not teach people how to alleviate suffering for themselves, but merely covers it with a comfortblanket without really adressing the issue.

If you have few problems to begin with this is fine ofcourse, but for someone with a mountain of troubles the story is different.[/quote]

There’s something to be said for a comfort blanket.

That said, religion can actually create and perpetuate unnecessary suffering by judging and punishing people based on unproven beliefs. For example, there have been many gay suicides because people couldn’t reconcile their religious beliefs with their sexual orientation.
[/quote]

A comfort blanket is not a solution, and religion is not a solution to personal suffering.

As you said, it often creates more suffering.
[/quote]

I don’t think it’s either/or, but can be both.

Just because religion can cause suffering doesn’t mean it doesn’t help alleviate suffering in some cases.

For example, faith can provide a cancer patient with peace of mind, reduced stress, less pain and anxiety, and a stronger will to live. All good things.

However, if faith causes the believer to forego medical treatments, it can actually hurt them more than it helps.

Tiribulus recently shared how his faith has helped him through a difficult period, where he otherwise would have given up hope. How is that a bad thing?[/quote]

On a personal note, I actually cured myself of alcoholism. As in, I was, for years, the worst kind of alcoholic on an ever-downward spiral of deeper and deeper addiction. I was the kind of alcoholic that people eventually have interventions for, though thankfully I had not yet reached that point.

Today I am happy to say that I am a well adjusted NON-alcoholic, completely cured of that terrible malady. I actually still drink, even, but the demon that used to wait for me to take my first drink has been, ahem, exorcised.

I came to my cure through a combination of the most fervent, tireless prayer and the discovery of a system that actually works. Now, I firmly believe if had not put in all of that prayer time, I would not have discovered the system. But during the entire time I was praying, literally near despair for years and years, thinking my prayers would never be answered no magical cure came. The answer to those prayers came in the form of a very secular, scientific method of recovery.

And believe me, the suffering I was doing was in NO way edifying. Anyway my point is that sometimes, eph, you paint religious folk out to be these cardboard cut-out humans who think and act only one way. I think, if nothing else, our conversations here should have given you a few clues that we are a bit more three dimensional than that.
[/quote]

A little side: Has anyone noticed most people who aren’t indoctrinated as children but “find god” do so at their lowest point? No one seems to find god while their sober, making boatloads of money and in a loving relationship.

Perhaps many of us never find god because we’ve never hit a very low point in our lives.

603

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I’m not a masochist and abstain from self-flagellation Chris. I think that’s a ridiculous notion, and a malignant one.

Ofcourse suffering is not just feeling pain, physically or emotionally, suffering is the rejection of pain; “I don’t want this. Why me?”.

I believe that institutionalised religion does not teach people how to alleviate suffering for themselves, but merely covers it with a comfortblanket without really adressing the issue.

If you have few problems to begin with this is fine ofcourse, but for someone with a mountain of troubles the story is different.[/quote]

There’s something to be said for a comfort blanket.

That said, religion can actually create and perpetuate unnecessary suffering by judging and punishing people based on unproven beliefs. For example, there have been many gay suicides because people couldn’t reconcile their religious beliefs with their sexual orientation.
[/quote]

A comfort blanket is not a solution, and religion is not a solution to personal suffering.

As you said, it often creates more suffering.
[/quote]

I don’t think it’s either/or, but can be both.

Just because religion can cause suffering doesn’t mean it doesn’t help alleviate suffering in some cases.

For example, faith can provide a cancer patient with peace of mind, reduced stress, less pain and anxiety, and a stronger will to live. All good things.

However, if faith causes the believer to forego medical treatments, it can actually hurt them more than it helps.

Tiribulus recently shared how his faith has helped him through a difficult period, where he otherwise would have given up hope. How is that a bad thing?[/quote]

On a personal note, I actually cured myself of alcoholism. As in, I was, for years, the worst kind of alcoholic on an ever-downward spiral of deeper and deeper addiction. I was the kind of alcoholic that people eventually have interventions for, though thankfully I had not yet reached that point.

Today I am happy to say that I am a well adjusted NON-alcoholic, completely cured of that terrible malady. I actually still drink, even, but the demon that used to wait for me to take my first drink has been, ahem, exorcised.

I came to my cure through a combination of the most fervent, tireless prayer and the discovery of a system that actually works. Now, I firmly believe if had not put in all of that prayer time, I would not have discovered the system. But during the entire time I was praying, literally near despair for years and years, thinking my prayers would never be answered no magical cure came. The answer to those prayers came in the form of a very secular, scientific method of recovery.

And believe me, the suffering I was doing was in NO way edifying. Anyway my point is that sometimes, eph, you paint religious folk out to be these cardboard cut-out humans who think and act only one way. I think, if nothing else, our conversations here should have given you a few clues that we are a bit more three dimensional than that.
[/quote]

Congrats man, that isn’t easy to do and I’m glad you were able to overcome it.

604

2nd Corinthians 4:17[quote]<<< For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, >>>[/quote] 11:21b-28 [quote]<<< But whatever anyone else dares to boast of?I am speaking as a fool?I also dare to boast of that. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one?I am talking like a madman?with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food,a in cold and exposure. 28And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. >>>[/quote] Most of us have no problems

605

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I’m not a masochist and abstain from self-flagellation Chris. I think that’s a ridiculous notion, and a malignant one.[/quote]

What is a ridiculous notion?

I have never heard of suffering described like that, aversion but not rejection. Where do you get the idea?

How do they ‘merely cover it with a comfort blanket’?

I never said that you shouldn’t deal with the problems, I just said that suffering isn’t inherently bad. Or, whatever.

606

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I believe that institutionalised religion does not teach people how to alleviate suffering for themselves, but merely covers it with a comfortblanket without really adressing the issue.

If you have few problems to begin with this is fine ofcourse, but for someone with a mountain of troubles the story is different.[/quote]

What makes your way better?
[/quote]

Because it works for me. I’m not saying what i did to go beyond my own suffering will work for everyone, just that if faith and religion is not enough to end a cycle of suffering, perhaps religion does not have the answer.
[/quote]

Right answer, wrong question.

607

[quote]Cortes wrote:

On a personal note, I actually cured myself of alcoholism. As in, I was, for years, the worst kind of alcoholic on an ever-downward spiral of deeper and deeper addiction. I was the kind of alcoholic that people eventually have interventions for, though thankfully I had not yet reached that point.

Today I am happy to say that I am a well adjusted NON-alcoholic, completely cured of that terrible malady. I actually still drink, even, but the demon that used to wait for me to take my first drink has been, ahem, exorcised.

I came to my cure through a combination of the most fervent, tireless prayer and the discovery of a system that actually works. Now, I firmly believe if had not put in all of that prayer time, I would not have discovered the system. But during the entire time I was praying, literally near despair for years and years, thinking my prayers would never be answered no magical cure came. The answer to those prayers came in the form of a very secular, scientific method of recovery.

And believe me, the suffering I was doing was in NO way edifying. Anyway my point is that sometimes, eph, you paint religious folk out to be these cardboard cut-out humans who think and act only one way. I think, if nothing else, our conversations here should have given you a few clues that we are a bit more three dimensional than that.
[/quote]

I’m sure you are a multilayered person Cortes, but i also think that far too often the [very] religious posters on PWI aren’t comfortable showing that side of themselves.

In many threads i encountered very one-dimensional thinking, rigid black vs white reasoning and an unwillingness to even acknowledge the possibility of other valid viewpoints on certain subjects.

I’m glad that you’ve been able to slay your demon[s], and now you’ve told me this i realise how strongly that is attached to your beliefs. I can totally imagine what kind of impact it must have had on you, and how your faith is tied to such a dramatic life change.

Thank you.

608

[quote]therajraj wrote:
A little side: Has anyone noticed most people who aren’t indoctrinated as children but “find god” do so at their lowest point? No one seems to find god while their sober, making boatloads of money and in a loving relationship.

Perhaps many of us never find god because we’ve never hit a very low point in our lives.

[/quote]

Um…yeah. When people realise that their solution doesn’t work they usually resort to another one. But, I go against your theory.

I’ve always been sober, though the making of boatloads of money hasn’t been until recently, I still had more than enough money, and I had a wonderful girlfriend at the time.

Newt Gingrich did too. So did that one Jewish guy that just converted, the TV show writer.

The reason you hear about these low time testimonies, I think is because of what I can only guess is envy of St. Paul and the Road to Damascus.

Though, I am still not sure what your point is?

609

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I’m not a masochist and abstain from self-flagellation Chris. I think that’s a ridiculous notion, and a malignant one.[/quote]

What is a ridiculous notion?

I have never heard of suffering described like that, aversion but not rejection. Where do you get the idea?

How do they ‘merely cover it with a comfort blanket’?

I never said that you shouldn’t deal with the problems, I just said that suffering isn’t inherently bad. Or, whatever.[/quote]

That self-flagellation is some kind of offering, and as an offshoot of that idea that other people’s suffering is a divine burden which will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Pain, beit emotional or physical, is an indication that something is wrong with the body. In and of itself pain is not suffering. Is being hungry or thirsty or horny suffering? These feelings are also a physical manifestation. One can live with pain and not feel burdened by it. Is such a person still suffering?

No, i don’t think so. Suffering begins when pain is unwanted. When pain is seen as a slight against onesself. It’s an idea that has its roots in Advaita Vedanta or perhaps Buddhism, i don’t really recall. I’ve never been one to stick to one philosophy.

If there is a problem, and a religious person suffers because of it, and that religious person prayes to god for salvation and his emotional turmoil is eased somewhat because of that prayer, the actual problem is not addressed.

As long as the problem persists and not solved, religion offers a blanket.

Ofcourse suffering isn’t bad. Suffering offers a possibility to see who is suffering, and why one is suffering. Sadly, religion frowns on mystic revelation. The gnostics, sufi’s and kabbala and buddhists all share the idea that what stands in the way of divine revelation [in whatever form] is the self.

Anyway…

610

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
A little side: Has anyone noticed most people who aren’t indoctrinated as children but “find god” do so at their lowest point? No one seems to find god while their sober, making boatloads of money and in a loving relationship.

Perhaps many of us never find god because we’ve never hit a very low point in our lives.

[/quote]

Um…yeah. When people realise that their solution doesn’t work they usually resort to another one. But, I go against your theory.

I’ve always been sober, though the making of boatloads of money hasn’t been until recently, I still had more than enough money, and I had a wonderful girlfriend at the time.

Newt Gingrich did too. So did that one Jewish guy that just converted, the TV show writer.

The reason you hear about these low time testimonies, I think is because of what I can only guess is envy of St. Paul and the Road to Damascus.

Though, I am still not sure what your point is?[/quote]

Explaining potentially why many of us never “find god.” I don’t have any statistics, but I doubt most non-believers who find god do so while their lives are going well. Of course there will always be exceptions.

Maybe I’m mistaking you for another poster, but didn’t you say you had a fucked up family life at some point?

611

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Though, I am still not sure what your point is?[/quote]

Explaining potentially why many of us never “find god.” I don’t have any statistics, but I doubt most non-believers who find god do so while their lives are going well. Of course there will always be exceptions.

[/quote]

This is news? Of course non-believers would be less inclined to find God when they are fat and happy. I think about food a lot more when I haven’t eaten in a while.

Anyway in the end it’s just more stereotyping of religious believers with what I suspect is the implication that God isn’t real but just a coping device that we reach for in hard times.

Truth is, there are tons of stories of people both reaching for and rejecting God in times of hardship, and of both of these happening when things were so good you’d never expect it. And at every point between. None of it, though, proves anything, one way or another, if that’s where you were trying to take things.

612

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I’m glad that you’ve been able to slay your demon[s], and now you’ve told me this i realise how strongly that is attached to your beliefs. I can totally imagine what kind of impact it must have had on you, and how your faith is tied to such a dramatic life change.

Thank you.[/quote]

My pleasure.

613

[quote]forlife wrote:

Congrats man, that isn’t easy to do and I’m glad you were able to overcome it.[/quote]

Thank you, forlife.

Honestly, if you or anyone else reading this knows anyone who has a problem with alcohol, please feel PM me. That person will first have to have the desire to be freed from that terrible addiction, because no program can help someone who is set in their ways. But for anyone who does want help and doesn’t feel like the traditional methods of AA and other programs are for him (I was certainly like that), this program works,, and it would give me no greater pleasure than to introduce it to someone else that they might too be free.

[/hijack]

614

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Congrats man, that isn’t easy to do and I’m glad you were able to overcome it.[/quote]

Thank you, forlife.

Honestly, if you or anyone else reading this knows anyone who has a problem with alcohol, please feel PM me. That person will first have to have the desire to be freed from that terrible addiction, because no program can help someone who is set in their ways. But for anyone who does want help and doesn’t feel like the traditional methods of AA and other programs are for him (I was certainly like that), this program works,, and it would give me no greater pleasure than to introduce it to someone else that they might too be free.

[/hijack][/quote]

Secular sobriety?

615

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Congrats man, that isn’t easy to do and I’m glad you were able to overcome it.[/quote]

Thank you, forlife.

Honestly, if you or anyone else reading this knows anyone who has a problem with alcohol, please feel PM me. That person will first have to have the desire to be freed from that terrible addiction, because no program can help someone who is set in their ways. But for anyone who does want help and doesn’t feel like the traditional methods of AA and other programs are for him (I was certainly like that), this program works,, and it would give me no greater pleasure than to introduce it to someone else that they might too be free.

[/hijack][/quote]

Secular sobriety?[/quote]

An effective program to cure people of alcoholism forever.

616

[quote]therajraj wrote:
a fucked up family life at some point?
[/quote]

If I did, I didn’t join the Catholic Church when I had any problems with my family.

617

[quote]ephrem wrote:
That self-flagellation is some kind of offering, and as an offshoot of that idea that other people’s suffering is a divine burden which will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Pain, beit emotional or physical, is an indication that something is wrong with the body. In and of itself pain is not suffering. Is being hungry or thirsty or horny suffering? These feelings are also a physical manifestation. One can live with pain and not feel burdened by it. Is such a person still suffering?

No, i don’t think so. Suffering begins when pain is unwanted. When pain is seen as a slight against onesself. It’s an idea that has its roots in Advaita Vedanta or perhaps Buddhism, i don’t really recall. I’ve never been one to stick to one philosophy.[/quote]

…I still disagree with your definition of suffering. Suffering is the enduring or tolerating of pain or illness. So, if someone lives with pain, they suffer the pain. Just like that old verse, “shall not suffer a witch.” Didn’t mean do not stay in a state of not wanting the witch, it means do not tolerate a witch, get rid of it.

This sounds more like an adverseness to medicine, which I do not recommend. However, there are plenty of times that pain does not need medical attention. And, sometimes medicine cannot stop the pain or illness.

[quote]As long as the problem persists and not solved, religion offers a blanket.

Ofcourse suffering isn’t bad. Suffering offers a possibility to see who is suffering, and why one is suffering. Sadly, religion frowns on mystic revelation. The gnostics, sufi’s and kabbala and buddhists all share the idea that what stands in the way of divine revelation [in whatever form] is the self.

Anyway…[/quote]

Well, you can take an easy breath, because Catholicism loves mystics. I myself hope to be a mystic one day, however, not all private revelations are binding. But, there are a lot of mystic works that are used with some frequency within the Catholic Church. St. Francis de Assisi, St. Francis de Sales, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Padre Pio were all mystics. Famous ones at that.

My favorite mystic is a Spanish mystic, St. John of the Cross. Though one has to be decent at understanding written Spanish to fully understand his writings.

619

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Perhaps many of us never find god because we’ve never hit a very low point in our lives.

[/quote]

You’ll get there one of these days. That’s a given.[/quote]

I know.

621

Bill Maher, yes the voice of reason and angry emotional diatribes about those evil religious people.