Greatest Martial Artist Ever

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Loudog45,

Sorry for the confusion. Not sure why this was moved from the GAL forum.

As to this,

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
But seriously though, seriously.
Anyone who wants to hold Steven Segal’s hand is FUCKED.[/quote]

I’ll just leave this here:
[/quote]

Man, thanks for reminding me of Snatch and reminding us all that Jason Statham deserves his place up there with the true greats of martial arts. Men like Steven Segal, Bruce Lee and, of course, Keanu Reeves.

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
The highest ranking available in martial arts is ‘Meijin’ which which means supreme master. Only one man was ever awarding this I believe: Anko Itosu, who was one of the Emperor of Okinawa’s bodyguards. He went on to teach (along with master Azoto) Gichin Funakoshi who then taught Nakayama Sensei who taught Hirikozu Kanazawa, who is the greatest living martial artist today, and the only true tenth dan alive. Itosu could crush a piece of bamboo with one hand and broke his makiwara so many times he strapped the leather sole of a shoe to a brick wall and loosened the bricks when he punched it. He also killed several people in his personal life and more in his line of work. Just look at his legacy of students…

Read ‘the weaponless warriors’

Hirikozu Kanazawa ‘recollections of a living legend’ and Hirikozu Kanazawa tenth dan

C W Nicol also mentions kanazawa in his book ‘moving Zen’ Karate a path to gentleness.[/quote]

Interesting info.

But, what gave whoever promoted Itosu the authority to promote him to “Meijin”? I mean, if he was the first and only one to ever hold that title, then the person who promoted him was not also a “Meijin” and therefore had no more authority to promote him to a 10th dan than anyone else.

Lineage is all well and good, and in some cases can be somewhat useful in determining whether someone has actually received quality instruction or not, but really what makes a rank legit or not is what that individual is capable of actually doing. Musashi might never have been awarded the rank of Meijin, but he fought numerous duels to the death with other warriors and was a brilliant strategist. There are other well known Martial artists (and soldiers if you want to be true to the actual meaning of “martial”) who also may have never been awarded the title of “Meijin” but who’s abilities warrant them being held in the highest esteem from a combative standpoint.

Take John Boyd for example, the creator of the “OODA Loop” theory. Boyd was a brilliant military strategist and an outstanding fighter pilot. Boyd had a standing bet (which to the best of my knowledge he never lost) that within 40 seconds (starting from a position of disadvantage) he could defeat any opposing pilot. Sure, maybe he wasn’t fighting with swords, staffs, spears, or any of the other weapons that we usually picture “martial artists” using, but with his weapon of choice (a fighter plane) he was one of the best ever.

IDK about ever, but I would say the best martial artist right now is GSP. The man is so respectful and hard working at everything he trains, which is about 10 different styles. Its extremely impressive.

If we are talking hand to hand combat or non shooting weapons my vote goes to some guy in a medieval or ancient army that we dont know the name of. Guys that actually fought on the battle fields and not in duels or fights with rules. Problem is we dont ever hear about them because they are not the leaders.

And like Sento said are we including any kind of combat whether it be air combat or modern day combot with firearms? Even great bowmen of the past where martial artists.

[quote]krazylarry wrote:
IDK about ever, but I would say the best martial artist right now is GSP. The man is so respectful and hard working at everything he trains, which is about 10 different styles. Its extremely impressive. [/quote]

Except the part that he doesn’t go for the finish and that he would get his ass kicked on a vale tudo fight.

I’ve got to say that if we’re saying all around - like hand to hand, guns, knives, and war stuff on top of it, I’m going to have to put Kelly McCann at least as the representative from modern times.

While Bruce fucking Lee was waving his dick in circles on the television screen, this guy was in the bush in Vietnam. He’s been all over the world, and to me, he really exemplifies the “one mind any weapon” philosophy.

Plus, he made me laugh when he said you could train asian martial arts “as long as you don’t mind bowing to a foreign flag.”

Well, you might imagine that I liked that.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

While Bruce fucking Lee was waving his dick in circles on the television screen, this guy was in the bush in Vietnam. He’s been all over the world, and to me, he really exemplifies the “one mind any weapon” philosophy.

[/quote]
What? According to his bio on his page he was in the marines in 1980, pretty sure Vietnam was over by then…

[quote]krazylarry wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

While Bruce fucking Lee was waving his dick in circles on the television screen, this guy was in the bush in Vietnam. He’s been all over the world, and to me, he really exemplifies the “one mind any weapon” philosophy.

[/quote]
What? According to his bio on his page he was in the marines in 1980, pretty sure Vietnam was over by then…[/quote]

Not in Hollywood

[quote]krazylarry wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

While Bruce fucking Lee was waving his dick in circles on the television screen, this guy was in the bush in Vietnam. He’s been all over the world, and to me, he really exemplifies the “one mind any weapon” philosophy.

[/quote]
What? According to his bio on his page he was in the marines in 1980, pretty sure Vietnam was over by then…[/quote]

Not in Hollywood

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I’ve got to say that if we’re saying all around - like hand to hand, guns, knives, and war stuff on top of it, I’m going to have to put Kelly McCann at least as the representative from modern times.

While Bruce fucking Lee was waving his dick in circles on the television screen, this guy was in the bush in Vietnam. He’s been all over the world, and to me, he really exemplifies the “one mind any weapon” philosophy.

Plus, he made me laugh when he said you could train asian martial arts “as long as you don’t mind bowing to a foreign flag.”

Well, you might imagine that I liked that. [/quote]

Lee would have crushed McCann in unarmed combat though (and even in the case of certain types of weapons). I don’t get why you think that Lee wasn’t a legit martial artist simply because he felt that he could expose more people to martial arts through the film media than any other. Of course the guy wasn’t some sort of superhuman like people portray him as being, but he was actually legit.

To add a name to the list (just for some variety), I’d like to add Robert Bussey. His knowledge of stealth and climbing/infiltration skills, combined with being able to utilize just about any weapon he could/can get his hands on, along with at least decent unarmed skills would make him a handful for just about anyone given the right situation.

Good point. Though, I think that in some cases, if that individual’s deeds on the battle field were great enough, others would pass on knowledge of their accomplishments.

Think about it, Attila, Alexander, Hannibal, William Wallace, Leonidas, these were all great soldiers/warrior kings who’s names have been passed on down through the centuries.

I’m sure you’re right though that there are many others (possibly even greater warriors) who’s names have been lost to history.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Lee would have crushed McCann in unarmed combat though (and even in the case of certain types of weapons). I don’t get why you think that Lee wasn’t a legit martial artist simply because he felt that he could expose more people to martial arts through the film media than any other. Of course the guy wasn’t some sort of superhuman like people portray him as being, but he was actually legit.
.[/quote]

Probably because I think most martial arts folks AREN’T legit, especially the ones who star in movies.

On the one hand, I’ve got a combat veteran who’s seen action in a number of places and is recognized by the Marines as one of the foremost hand to hand instructors probably in the world, and on the other, I’ve got a movie star who supposedly beat a bunch of people’s asses “back in Asia” but has nothing but second hand stories alleging his prowess.

And what certain types of weapons? Like the bo, or the nunchucks? Maybe Lee wins in weapons that haven’t been featured prominently in war since the 14th century- whatever that counts for. But as far as knives and guns, the weapons of our age, I’ll take McCann.

Who do you really think I’m going to pick?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Good point. Though, I think that in some cases, if that individual’s deeds on the battle field were great enough, others would pass on knowledge of their accomplishments.

Think about it, Attila, Alexander, Hannibal, William Wallace, Leonidas, these were all great soldiers/warrior kings who’s names have been passed on down through the centuries.

I’m sure you’re right though that there are many others (possibly even greater warriors) who’s names have been lost to history.[/quote]

Those were all leaders. Guys that no doubt could fight and are remembered for good reason. Its tough to tell though who is the greatest of the past as your dealing with different weapons and time periods.

And of all those guys listed I would take Attila over the rest. He is my favorite ancient warrior and for good reason. You dont earn the nickname the scourge of god easily. A great warrior that understood strategy and warfare far greater than most I have read about.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Good point. Though, I think that in some cases, if that individual’s deeds on the battle field were great enough, others would pass on knowledge of their accomplishments.

Think about it, Attila, Alexander, Hannibal, William Wallace, Leonidas, these were all great soldiers/warrior kings who’s names have been passed on down through the centuries.

I’m sure you’re right though that there are many others (possibly even greater warriors) who’s names have been lost to history.[/quote]

Alexander was a fucking badass. He once stormed a city ON HIS OWN. When his men finally caught up with him he was being turned into a human sieve by the town’s archers. Anyone who actually engaged him in combat was cut to ribbons.

Crazy as a march hare tho’.

For knives and sticks, I’ll take someone with experience in the Filipino Martial Arts of Kali, Arnis or Escrima. I’ve seen what they could do with a stick and knife in real life situations.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Probably because I think most martial arts folks AREN’T legit, especially the ones who star in movies.
[/quote]

I can understand the movie star part, as what sells movie tickets is rarely what actually works in combat. And especially nowadays, with the use of special effects, camera angles, scenes cut into tons of little mini scenes (to make the choreography easier for non martial artists to handle) and other Hollywood tricks it is possible to make just about anyone look impressive on film.

But, like I said, Lee was already a pioneer (the first Chinese martial artist to start teaching to non Chinese as well as do away with much of the nationalism inherent in the MA’s at that time, the first to strap on protective gear and test things out full contact, doing away with “forms” training as being the primary training method, one of the first to start to cross train heavily in a wide range of skills including Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Western Fencing, Boxing, Savate, and American Kenpo to name a few) in the Martial Arts community of his time prior to going into the movies. He simply felt that the media of film was the one that would allow him to get the Martial arts to the greatest number of people. After all, there was no internet at the time.

Martial arts would literally not be anywhere near where it is today without Lee’s influence IMO. But also note that I would not place him in the top 10 greatest “fighters/warriors” of all time (heck, even of the 20th century). Top 10 “Martial artists” though, I would put him on the list simply for his influence.

…along with many of the top full contact kickboxers/karate/submission fighters of his time. On the battle field with guns, knives, heavy artilery, and all of the other conditions of modern warfare the Marines are an excellent source of what works and what doesn’t. But, in a one on one unarmed (or even armed with more shall we say civilian accessible weapons) professional fighters (or hardcore martial artists) are generally superior sources.

Lee was also highly famed for his speed. We are talking Roy Jones Jr. in his prime type of speed (possibly even faster). Dan Inosanto has stated that Lee had Bill Wallace type kicking speed with both of his legs. Joe Lewis has stated that of all of the men who he’s stood in front of (which includes Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali) that Lee was the fastest. I really think that this prodigious speed would give McCann (or really anyone other than the most gifted professional fighters) problems, especially if Lee were able to use his famous finger jab to the eyes.

Unfortunately in both guys cases, we have only second hand evidence to support either of their fighting (armed or unarmed) prowess. McCann is still with us, so I suppose he could film his skills, but Lee is long since dead, so there is no hope of hard physical proof.

With firearms McCann would clearly win. Knives, it would be close. Lee’s hand and footwork speed would make him a nightmare to deal with with a blade in his hand. But, McCann also has 30+ years of knife fighting improvements (since Lee’s time) to draw from. Sticks I give the advantage to Lee. Improvised stuff (rocks, pool balls, beer bottles, etc…) I think it could be a toss up depending on who had what and what the situation was.

[quote]
Who do you really think I’m going to pick?[/quote]

For pure warrior/soldier, I’d also pick McCann. But again, in an unarmed one on one fight, I think Lee would come out on top.

[quote]fnf wrote:
For knives and sticks, I’ll take someone with experience in the Filipino Martial Arts of Kali, Arnis or Escrima. I’ve seen what they could do with a stick and knife in real life situations.
[/quote]

That would be a good pick. I’d pick Rich Ryan of all of the modern day MA’s out there if we’re talking about Knife fighting. I’d have to go with the Dog Brothers for stick fighting.

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Good point. Though, I think that in some cases, if that individual’s deeds on the battle field were great enough, others would pass on knowledge of their accomplishments.

Think about it, Attila, Alexander, Hannibal, William Wallace, Leonidas, these were all great soldiers/warrior kings who’s names have been passed on down through the centuries.

I’m sure you’re right though that there are many others (possibly even greater warriors) who’s names have been lost to history.[/quote]

Alexander was a fucking badass. He once stormed a city ON HIS OWN. When his men finally caught up with him he was being turned into a human sieve by the town’s archers. Anyone who actually engaged him in combat was cut to ribbons.

Crazy as a march hare tho’.[/quote]

Not too many guys who excelled in face to face, hack you to pieces warfare weren’t. Today you can look through a little scope and pull a trigger, or even less personal, press a button and “bang” your opponent is dead. Back then you actually had to look them in the eyes much of the time as you were killing them.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

For pure warrior/soldier, I’d also pick McCann. But again, in an unarmed one on one fight, I think Lee would come out on top. [/quote]

What’s interesting is that other than some anecdotal stories of Lee’s great fighting prowess we really have nothing to base this on. He was never involved in military hand to hand operations. He never held a championship belt. He was never tested by the best of his day. This cannot be said for others of his day such as Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Benny Urquidez (who I feel would have handed Lee his head). And the many others who fought and became champions. Lee chose to become a movie star and in so doing spread martial arts through out the world, as you’ve already stated. But as far as a fighting champion I’m not buying any of the Lee folklore.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

For pure warrior/soldier, I’d also pick McCann. But again, in an unarmed one on one fight, I think Lee would come out on top. [/quote]

What’s interesting is that other than some anecdotal stories of Lee’s great fighting prowess we really have nothing to base this on. He was never involved in military hand to hand operations. He never held a championship belt. He was never tested by the best of his day. This cannot be said for others of his day such as Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Benny Urquidez (who I feel would have handed Lee his head). And the many others who fought and became champions. Lee chose to become a movie star and in so doing spread martial arts through out the world, as you’ve already stated. But as far as a fighting champion I’m not buying any of the Lee folklore.[/quote]

I don’t believe that Lee would have been a fighting champion either, but I don’t think that McCann would fair any better in the ring. Like I said, I’d take Lee in an unarmed one on one fight (or maybe with certain weapons other than firearms). In a battle, I’d pick McCann any day of the week.