I am not sure where to begin. First off, I don’t see us ever leaving Iraq. Have we left Germany? How about Japan? Korea? Also, I don’t know if you remember, but a short time ago Bosnia was a very dangerous place (including for our service members), until the US put its foot down. They had IED?s and RPG?s there too. I wouldn?t discount our success there. Also, having a strong military presence in Iraq puts us within striking range of our remaining enemies in the Middle East. Think about it. What is the hardest part about waging war? It is the build up and the supply line… all solved by a large base and a protected airport. Don?t think that isn?t lost on the rest of the middle east when they think about getting rowdy. As for the Iraqi themselves? They are people. They want to live long successful lives and want the same for their children. When their families and loved ones are threatened, and they seen their new government working for them, they will no longer tolerate an insurgency. So any sort of “waiting game” by the insurgency is a losing strategy. By definition, the insurgency will cease to exist. As for the Democrats? Anyone that can be gleeful over problems in the Middle East (read the death of our troops) is suspect. (i.e. Dean.) As for reason for going into Iraq? Iraq was lead by a dictator which was an avowed opponent of the US. He routinely thumbed his nose at our embargoes and edicts designed to curb his aggression and treatment of his own people. He aided and harbored terrorist. As for WMD? Last time I checked, Iraq is a huge country, filled with sand. Not hard to hide WMD with a couple of guys and a back hoe. That or you have plenty of sympathetic bordering nations that would be happy to have their hands on WMD. And the reason we went in nearly alone? Because participants of the UN were helping him break said embargoes and edicts, while profiting greatly. On top of that, most countries in the world have a very short-sighted, isolationist view in which they consider what is best for that country in the short term. Sense WW1, the US as realized that our own survival depends on the stability of the REST of the world. What we do is often done to either prevent another WW2 or protect the stability of our trading partners (which is everyone).
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Im sure you work for the GOP-led government in Cali, if so, there is nothing that i can say that would demoralize a cheerleader. [/quote]
Yes I do! The United States Marine Corps, oo-rah! Camp Pendleton, California! Cheerleader?! Sure! I CAN fill a B-cup (what I am doing trying on women’s lingerie is none of your business, but my tata’s are striated and my calves are ALMOST cut like diamonds…we are on T-Nation, by the way).
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
The left has proven again, and again that they don’t want the truth. They want their truth. The left is indeed invested in failure as they have directly tied their political future to failure in Iraq.
This is sad because with a plausible, independent vision of their own, they could be a legitimate political party. As of now they’re the “whatever the right is for we’re against” party.
Truly a sad political party.[/quote]
I’m not arguing as a democrat and I’m certainly no liberal – often I’m labeled as a conspiracy theorist though. Ironically the right has the wildest conspiracy theory of all – that somehow all of the good work and progress our government does is suppressed and filtered through a media that wants to see America fail, in spite of a $226 million dollar propaganda budget…
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9592
Maybe the left went along with the war but the right structured the team, called the plays and ran the show – now the left doesn’t have a good plan to get us out? I knew we were in trouble when one of the reasons given for not voting for Kerry in 2004 was because he was too smart.
The reality goes: NO bin Laden, NO al-Zarqawi (despite $25 million bounties), NO WMD’s, NO flowers, Not enough troops, mission NOT accomplished, war now to last ‘decades’, initial total cost to be $1.6 to $60 billion (now approaching 1/2 TRILLION) – and for all that hard work and lives lost we’ll be lucky if we walk away with a pro-Iranian government installed.
You may have noticed, by my intentionally leaving out the part about construction of the 40 megawatt generator, I made it appear as though things weren’t going well. Little trick I learned from the liberal media.
What news is Fox reporting I wonder? Wh-Wha-What!? Actually today they’re using the “no Iraq news is good news” approach to journalism. http://www.foxnews.com/
Sunnis and Shiites March for Unity Government
December 27, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179780,00.html
19 Killed in Iraq Attacks
December 26, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179744,00.html
Sunnis Protest ‘Cheating’ in Elections; Two U.S. Soldiers Killed
December 23, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179609,00.html
[quote]Cheney warns of ‘decades of war’
US Vice-President Dick Cheney has said that the US must be prepared to fight the war on terror for decades.
Duh! This is a water is wet argument here. The BBC is reporting this piece of “news” like it is the first time this has been said. The administration has repeatedly said that the war on terror will be very, very long.[/quote]
I guess this is kinda like the old joke about the guy who jumped into the pile of shit and told the second guy it was only ankle deep. When the second guy jumped in, the shit was up to his chin – seems the first guy forgot to mention he went in head first.
Rumsfeld foresees swift Iraq war
BBC
February 7, 2003
Any war with Iraq would be swift and not require a full US mobilisation, says US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months,” he said, speaking at the American air base at Aviano, in northern Italy.
See, in English, the word ‘swift’ means fast or quick (in this case less than 6 months). ‘Decade(s)’ on the other hand is anywhere between a MINIMUM of 20 years and infinity – optimistically I’m betting it’ll be less than 8 decades, keep your fingers crossed.
You know what? I’ll bet they’re taking into account our future fighting forces:
Child obesity wave building in rural U.S.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-13-rural-child-obesity_x.htm
Childhood Obesity Becoming Rampant
“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Parsons swallowed it easily, with the stupidity of an animal.” ~ Orwell’s ‘1984’
[quote]
Sharon says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria
18/02/2003
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. “These are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve,” Sharon said to a visiting delegation of American congressmen.
Sharon told the congressmen that Israel was not involved in the war with Iraq “but the American action is of vital importance.”
Again…DUH! Of course these countries should be disarmed, this stuff isn’t rocket science. Too bad the US and Britain, along with a select few others are the only ones willing to invest in a proactive strategy to secure the world from terrorism. The rest of the world needs to get out of their skirts and let 'em drop. [/quote]
Hey! Don’t forget Poland!
Think of it this way:
Chirac says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria
18/02/2003
French President Jacques Chirac said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. “These are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve,” Chirac said to a visiting delegation of American congressmen.
Chirac told the congressmen that France was not involved in the war with Iraq “but the American action is of vital importance.”
Iraq was invaded ‘to protect France’ - US official
WASHINGTON - Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States, but it did to France, which is one reason why Washington invaded the Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level White House intelligence group.
Inter Press Service uncovered the remarks by Philip Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to investigate the terrorist attacks on the US in September 2001 - the 9/11 commission - in which he suggests a prime motive for the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to France, a staunch US ally in the Middle East.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FC31Aa01.html
[quote]
Bush Says Iraq War Is Good for Israel
View Clashes With Opinion Of Israeli Aides
December 16, 2005
In sharp contrast to the growing consensus of Jerusalem’s security and political establishment, President Bush argued this week that Israel’s safety depends on democratization of the Arab world.
Of course it was good for isreal. It was good for everybody. DUH![/quote]
DUH, is right. BUSH says Iraq war is good for Israel – In sharp contrast to the growing consensus of Jerusalem’s security and political establishment. Sounds vaguely familiar:
Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground
War Created Haven, CIA Advisers Report
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html
CIA links terror threat to Iraq
Mr Goss said the ongoing Iraq conflict, “while not a cause of extremisms, has become a cause for extremists”.
[quote]
Russia to take Syria’s side if conflict with U.S. arises - Russian MPs
Russia has always been, and will continue to be a political ally of conveniance. We deal with Russia if Russia becomes a problem. [/quote]
Sounds like a Neocon plan if I ever heard one. Now that we’ve established what crack does to the thought process – how does it work for bodybuilding ; )
War on Terror - The Killer Bee Policy
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=43
[quote]
Many of the religious far-right “wackos” in the US just LOVE this war in Iraq and the others sure to follow because it validates their religion. They pretend to want peace and democracy in the Middle East but in reality they’re giddy with excitement at the prospects of a destabilized Middle East and global war. The more rational Christians seem to recognize that it’s being FORCED into happening and that maybe Armageddon isn’t inevitable.
This “Decades of War” has nothing to do with “Freedom and Democracy” – we all know how it’s supposed to end…
Temple Mount
Campaign for the Liberation of G-d’s Promised Land:
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Newsletters/2001/5761-17.htm
LOL! That’s some real tinfoil hat shit there dude. [/quote]
Anymore the term ‘tinfoil hat’ is an indicator that you’ve come too close to the truth – it’s the Republican term for uh, oh.
Ex: People claiming that vote tampering supported by exit polls in Ohio and elsewhere during the 2004 election that gave Bush a narrow margin of victory, are part of the tinfoil hat crowd.
Leon County, FL to Dump Diebold After Undetectable Hack Reverses Test Election
Diebold goes down for the count
[quote]
Seriously, why is it that Republicans such as myself are called cheerleaders for pointing out Iraq success, while leftists such as yourself are never called a cheerleader for failure?
At least folks like myself, RJ, Hedo, and others recognize what hasn’t gone so well while lauding what has. I’ve never heard the leftists on this board recognize on their own ANY success we’ve had in Iraq.
Cheerleaders for failure I say. I will always put faith in optimism rather than pessimism.
Hope you had a great christmas JTF![/quote]
Just to be accurate, I’m part of the redefined ‘left’ – left of torture, secret prisons, domestic spying and treason. The thing that should scare the living shit out of every true American right now is that the ‘New Republicans’ have not found a line they won’t cross yet. As in lying, widespread domestic spying, secret prisons, torture and a little treason in the cause of fighting terrorism is still BELOW their tolerance threshold.
The difference is the ‘left’ is TRULY concerned about the well being of our troops and believe the military should be used in a defensive mode, not for nation building and profit. We’ve already spent about half trillion dollars and almost 3 years in a war that was supposed to be self-financed and be over in less than 6 months. We haven’t even really started rebuilding IRAQ yet, so where has this HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF (borrowed taxpayers) DOLLARS gone that could have been used to give every single American healthcare and still practically have enough left over to pave every major US highway in gold? The right really doesn’t care, only liberals care about such nonsense.
Yes, half-a-trillion dollars spent on a small war being fought against pockets of insurgents… that we’re winning. Yet soldiers and family members of soldiers had to buy their own body armor and are fighting like hell to get reimbursed.
How well is it going over there? Imagine if it was going bad…
US Forced to Import Bullets from Israel as Troops Use 250,000 for Every Rebel Killed
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel. A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0925-02.htm
.50-caliber ammo used so much that supplies run low
Washington- U.S. troops in Iraq are firing .50-caliber machine guns at such a high rate, the Army is scrambling to resupply them with ammunition - in some cases dusting off crates of World War II machine gun rounds and shipping them off to combat units.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1130846175240150.xml&coll=2
Not to mention, shooting at Muslims with Israeli made bullets… let that sink in for a little while.
I encourage more people who want to report the good news from Iraq to do this.
U.S. Teen Runs Off to Iraq by Himself
http://tinyurl.com/adoqq
At the very least O’Reilly, Hannity or Coulter – SHOW US HOW GREAT IT’S GOING. FOX news should be broadcasting live from Iraq right now – WHY NOT? Prove the naysayers wrong. Start the email campaign to FOX and demand they send O’Reilly and Hannity to Iraq for live broadcasts.
Too many people like me are being mislead by cut and run Democrats and a liberal media who’s only objective is failure.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
The left has proven again, and again that they don’t want the truth. They want their truth. The left is indeed invested in failure as they have directly tied their political future to failure in Iraq.
This is sad because with a plausible, independent vision of their own, they could be a legitimate political party. As of now they’re the “whatever the right is for we’re against” party.
Truly a sad political party.
I’m not arguing as a democrat and I’m certainly no liberal – often I’m labeled as a conspiracy theorist though. Ironically the right has the wildest conspiracy theory of all – that somehow all of the good work and progress our government does is suppressed and filtered through a media that wants to see America fail, in spite of a $226 million dollar propaganda budget…
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9592
Maybe the left went along with the war but the right structured the team, called the plays and ran the show – now the left doesn’t have a good plan to get us out? I knew we were in trouble when one of the reasons given for not voting for Kerry in 2004 was because he was too smart.
The reality goes: NO bin Laden, NO al-Zarqawi (despite $25 million bounties), NO WMD’s, NO flowers, Not enough troops, mission NOT accomplished, war now to last ‘decades’, initial total cost to be $1.6 to $60 billion (now approaching 1/2 TRILLION) – and for all that hard work and lives lost we’ll be lucky if we walk away with a pro-Iranian government installed.
You may have noticed, by my intentionally leaving out the part about construction of the 40 megawatt generator, I made it appear as though things weren’t going well. Little trick I learned from the liberal media.
What news is Fox reporting I wonder? Wh-Wha-What!? Actually today they’re using the “no Iraq news is good news” approach to journalism. http://www.foxnews.com/
Sunnis and Shiites March for Unity Government
December 27, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179780,00.html
19 Killed in Iraq Attacks
December 26, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179744,00.html
Sunnis Protest ‘Cheating’ in Elections; Two U.S. Soldiers Killed
December 23, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179609,00.html
Cheney warns of ‘decades of war’
US Vice-President Dick Cheney has said that the US must be prepared to fight the war on terror for decades.
Duh! This is a water is wet argument here. The BBC is reporting this piece of “news” like it is the first time this has been said. The administration has repeatedly said that the war on terror will be very, very long.
I guess this is kinda like the old joke about the guy who jumped into the pile of shit and told the second guy it was only ankle deep. When the second guy jumped in, the shit was up to his chin – seems the first guy forgot to mention he went in head first.
Rumsfeld foresees swift Iraq war
BBC
February 7, 2003
Any war with Iraq would be swift and not require a full US mobilisation, says US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months,” he said, speaking at the American air base at Aviano, in northern Italy.
See, in English, the word ‘swift’ means fast or quick (in this case less than 6 months). ‘Decade(s)’ on the other hand is anywhere between a MINIMUM of 20 years and infinity – optimistically I’m betting it’ll be less than 8 decades, keep your fingers crossed.
You know what? I’ll bet they’re taking into account our future fighting forces:
Child obesity wave building in rural U.S.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-13-rural-child-obesity_x.htm
Childhood Obesity Becoming Rampant
“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Parsons swallowed it easily, with the stupidity of an animal.” ~ Orwell’s ‘1984’
Sharon says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria
18/02/2003
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. “These are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve,” Sharon said to a visiting delegation of American congressmen.
Sharon told the congressmen that Israel was not involved in the war with Iraq “but the American action is of vital importance.”
Again…DUH! Of course these countries should be disarmed, this stuff isn’t rocket science. Too bad the US and Britain, along with a select few others are the only ones willing to invest in a proactive strategy to secure the world from terrorism. The rest of the world needs to get out of their skirts and let 'em drop.
Hey! Don’t forget Poland!
Think of it this way:
Chirac says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria
18/02/2003
French President Jacques Chirac said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. “These are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve,” Chirac said to a visiting delegation of American congressmen.
Chirac told the congressmen that France was not involved in the war with Iraq “but the American action is of vital importance.”
Iraq was invaded ‘to protect France’ - US official
WASHINGTON - Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States, but it did to France, which is one reason why Washington invaded the Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level White House intelligence group.
Inter Press Service uncovered the remarks by Philip Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to investigate the terrorist attacks on the US in September 2001 - the 9/11 commission - in which he suggests a prime motive for the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to France, a staunch US ally in the Middle East.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FC31Aa01.html
Bush Says Iraq War Is Good for Israel
View Clashes With Opinion Of Israeli Aides
December 16, 2005
In sharp contrast to the growing consensus of Jerusalem’s security and political establishment, President Bush argued this week that Israel’s safety depends on democratization of the Arab world.
Of course it was good for isreal. It was good for everybody. DUH!
DUH, is right. BUSH says Iraq war is good for Israel – In sharp contrast to the growing consensus of Jerusalem’s security and political establishment. Sounds vaguely familiar:
Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground
War Created Haven, CIA Advisers Report
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html
CIA links terror threat to Iraq
Mr Goss said the ongoing Iraq conflict, “while not a cause of extremisms, has become a cause for extremists”.
Russia to take Syria’s side if conflict with U.S. arises - Russian MPs
Russia has always been, and will continue to be a political ally of conveniance. We deal with Russia if Russia becomes a problem.
Sounds like a Neocon plan if I ever heard one. Now that we’ve established what crack does to the thought process – how does it work for bodybuilding ; )
War on Terror - The Killer Bee Policy
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=43
Many of the religious far-right “wackos” in the US just LOVE this war in Iraq and the others sure to follow because it validates their religion. They pretend to want peace and democracy in the Middle East but in reality they’re giddy with excitement at the prospects of a destabilized Middle East and global war. The more rational Christians seem to recognize that it’s being FORCED into happening and that maybe Armageddon isn’t inevitable.
This “Decades of War” has nothing to do with “Freedom and Democracy” – we all know how it’s supposed to end…
Temple Mount
Campaign for the Liberation of G-d’s Promised Land:
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Newsletters/2001/5761-17.htm
LOL! That’s some real tinfoil hat shit there dude.
Anymore the term ‘tinfoil hat’ is an indicator that you’ve come too close to the truth – it’s the Republican term for uh, oh.
Ex: People claiming that vote tampering supported by exit polls in Ohio and elsewhere during the 2004 election that gave Bush a narrow margin of victory, are part of the tinfoil hat crowd.
Leon County, FL to Dump Diebold After Undetectable Hack Reverses Test Election
Diebold goes down for the count
Seriously, why is it that Republicans such as myself are called cheerleaders for pointing out Iraq success, while leftists such as yourself are never called a cheerleader for failure?
At least folks like myself, RJ, Hedo, and others recognize what hasn’t gone so well while lauding what has. I’ve never heard the leftists on this board recognize on their own ANY success we’ve had in Iraq.
Cheerleaders for failure I say. I will always put faith in optimism rather than pessimism.
Hope you had a great christmas JTF!
Just to be accurate, I’m part of the redefined ‘left’ – left of torture, secret prisons, domestic spying and treason. The thing that should scare the living shit out of every true American right now is that the ‘New Republicans’ have not found a line they won’t cross yet. As in lying, widespread domestic spying, secret prisons, torture and a little treason in the cause of fighting terrorism is still BELOW their tolerance threshold.
The difference is the ‘left’ is TRULY concerned about the well being of our troops and believe the military should be used in a defensive mode, not for nation building and profit. We’ve already spent about half trillion dollars and almost 3 years in a war that was supposed to be self-financed and be over in less than 6 months. We haven’t even really started rebuilding IRAQ yet, so where has this HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF (borrowed taxpayers) DOLLARS gone that could have been used to give every single American healthcare and still practically have enough left over to pave every major US highway in gold? The right really doesn’t care, only liberals care about such nonsense.
Yes, half-a-trillion dollars spent on a small war being fought against pockets of insurgents… that we’re winning. Yet soldiers and family members of soldiers had to buy their own body armor and are fighting like hell to get reimbursed.
How well is it going over there? Imagine if it was going bad…
US Forced to Import Bullets from Israel as Troops Use 250,000 for Every Rebel Killed
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel. A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0925-02.htm
.50-caliber ammo used so much that supplies run low
Washington- U.S. troops in Iraq are firing .50-caliber machine guns at such a high rate, the Army is scrambling to resupply them with ammunition - in some cases dusting off crates of World War II machine gun rounds and shipping them off to combat units.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1130846175240150.xml&coll=2
Not to mention, shooting at Muslims with Israeli made bullets… let that sink in for a little while.
I encourage more people who want to report the good news from Iraq to do this.
U.S. Teen Runs Off to Iraq by Himself
http://tinyurl.com/adoqq
At the very least O’Reilly, Hannity or Coulter – SHOW US HOW GREAT IT’S GOING. FOX news should be broadcasting live from Iraq right now – WHY NOT? Prove the naysayers wrong. Start the email campaign to FOX and demand they send O’Reilly and Hannity to Iraq for live broadcasts.
Too many people like me are being mislead by cut and run Democrats and a liberal media who’s only objective is failure.
[/quote]
.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
The reality goes: NO bin Laden, NO al-Zarqawi (despite $25 million bounties), NO WMD’s, NO flowers, Not enough troops, mission NOT accomplished, war now to last ‘decades’, initial total cost to be $1.6 to $60 billion (now approaching 1/2 TRILLION) – and for all that hard work and lives lost we’ll be lucky if we walk away with a pro-Iranian government installed.[/quote]
These points have been debated, and debated with both of us stating our beliefs and positions. I don’t believe that your position will be swayed by anything that I say or post.
However this particular piece is a shining example your unwillingness to aknowledge the substantial progress that has been made in Iraq while highlighting the bad.
I realize that the road to where we are now was not easy, and I once again state, NO war or rebuilding effort is a pleasant stroll down easy street with no mistakes made or challenges to overcome. I recognize these difficulties that have been overcome, and the ones that we are yet to overcome. I choose to recognize mistakes made and challenges met while focusing and promoting the progress made.
My glass is half full!
I choose to be an optimist.
[quote]
The difference is the ‘left’ is TRULY concerned about the well being of our troops and believe the military should be used in a defensive mode, not for nation building and profit. We’ve already spent about half trillion dollars and almost 3 years in a war that was supposed to be self-financed and be over in less than 6 months.[/quote]
From the launch of the war to the end of major military operations, 44 days
Yes the rebuilding of Iraq that followed has been very difficult and costly, in both money and human lives, but the payoff for the entire world will be enormous don’t you think?
[quote]
We haven’t even really started rebuilding IRAQ yet, so where has this HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF (borrowed taxpayers) DOLLARS gone that could have been used to give every single American healthcare and still practically have enough left over to pave every major US highway in gold? The right really doesn’t care, only liberals care about such nonsense.[/quote]
[i]Any given day, between 30,000 and 60,000 Iraqis are working on the 1,200 reconstruction projects currently under way. As part of the reconstruction effort, Iraq’s first modern landfill is being developed in southwest Baghdad. “The site will have the capacity to handle 2230 cubic meters of waste per day and will serve the needs of two million of Baghdad’s residents. The $22 million project which currently employs over 2100 Iraqis from the Al Rashid and Al Doura districts of Baghdad will meet international standards for waste management, a first in Iraq. The site will include built-in leachate collection systems, drainage, gas and surface water controls to protect both the groundwater and environment around the site.” A second landfill is currently being developed by USAID, north of Baghdad. As one report observes:
It’s not every day that a group of poor, uneducated Iraqis breaks into cheers for a high-ranking American official. That’s what happened Tuesday when the U.S. reconstruction chief strode up to hundreds of workers who’d been hired to help dig Iraq’s first environmentally sound landfill, in southwest Baghdad.[/i]
Of course this is just ONE example of the many positive things happening in Iraq. It’s just not as fun to report so it doesn’t hit the main page.
Anyways, I’m pretty tired. I’ll report more good news from Iraq in the morning.
Have a good day JTF!
I have to say, Lando and JTFacts are good to go. You two gentlemen really put your thoughts and opinions down with a clarity not often found on T-Nation. I understood both of you because it was fairly simple to read…thanks. KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid…well, that’s me.
Another good article highlighting some of the progress from Iraq
Rep. Jeb Bradley: Despite difficulties, we are making steady progress in Iraq
By REP. JEB BRADLEY
Another View
14 hours, 42 minutes ago
RECENTLY I HAD the opportunity to visit Iraq with five other members of Congress. The focus of this trip was to gauge the performance of the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF), assess the morale of American troops, observe the measures designed to protect our soldiers and develop a better understanding of the conditions necessary for our troops to begin returning home.
Helping the Iraqi Army and police to stand on their own has been a top priority. By mid-July, many regional Iraqi battalions will operate independently of American forces. The Iraqi police are also finding the public much more cooperative, as demonstrated by the increasing amount of credible intelligence they are receiving from Iraqi citizens about the identities and activities of terrorists. This intelligence is essential in the effort to thwart improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and suicide bomber attacks.
On my first trip to Iraq in 2003, I visited a Kirkuk police station and met one of the very first Iraqi police units. Today, there are 225,000 ISF, and that number will increase to 375,000 by the middle of 2007. A capable ISF will be one of the key elements to enabling American troops to return home. I am also encouraged by the words of Sgt. 1st Class Patrick Jennings of Newmarket, who described the determination of Iraqi police recruits in Ramadi who defied suicide bombers by volunteering to join the police even after an explosion had killed many recruits that same day. Our troops recognize the courage of the Iraqi people and it strengthens their commitment to the mission.
Improvements to armored vehicles and body armor for American troops have been made. Our troops realize that in a war, safety cannot be guaranteed, but the military and defense industry have reacted to a very determined and adaptive enemy by making necessary improvements to body armor and vehicles.
On each of my trips to Iraq, I have been impressed with the morale of the troops I have met. Better than anyone, they recognize there is still a long way to go, but they know we are making steady progress despite the difficulty and sacrifice involved. Capt. John Curry of Concord, embedded with an Iraqi police unit, described to me how he was able to watch the joy on Iraqis’ faces as they proudly held up their purple fingers after voting.
Soldiers serving a second tour say that the living conditions are good and have gotten better. One common complaint, though, is that Americans at home get too little news about the progress being made. These troops are concerned that the terror campaign and the media’s predominant focus on suicide bombs and IED attacks will do precisely what the terrorists want: undermine our nation’s confidence and resolve.
We should not underestimate the challenges facing Iraq. The formation of a post-election government that can reduce sectarian divisions and diminish sympathy for the terrorist insurgency is crucial. High unemployment and infrastructure problems still plague the country. But on each of my three trips, I have met Iraqis who are confident about their country’s future, and that same sentiment is echoed by the troops I have spoken with who interact with Iraqis on a daily basis.
Americans have the right to question the faulty intelligence regarding weapons of mass destruction, the military planning for post-war Iraq and the use of U.S. forces to overthrow a dictator. However, should questions about entering Iraq be the determining factor in the issue of leaving now? The variables today are completely different and the strategic landscape is permanently altered. The path that produces a preferred outcome ? Iraqi stability ? is a continued commitment to self-reliance and self-governance in Iraq. Withdrawal leaves Iraq with an embryonic government at the mercy of sectarian groups, criminal gangs and domestic and foreign fanaticism.
It is not possible to predict exactly when stability in Iraq will occur, but the progress is significant. After three elections, the Iraqi government is increasingly taking command of its troops. Saddam Hussein is on trial and Iraqis now can acknowledge what happened to their families under his brutal reign.
The change from a brutal dictatorship to a nation based on the rule of law and the will of the people is difficult, requires sacrifice and needs patience. As Capt. Curry reminded me, his job is to help establish conditions where Iraqi forces can take over from Americans and begin to provide security for their own country. We are making steady progress doing just that.
Rep. Jeb Bradley represents New Hampshire’s 1st District in Congress.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Cool, so when does the US go into Africa, North Korea, China and Saudi Arabia?
[/quote]
Sorry this reply is late. I just saw this.
The US has been in Saudi Arabia since before the first Gulf War. The US is currently deployed to several locations in Africa. North Korea? Well since that whole “Koren War” thing we have maintained our presense a bit south of that. China? I’m sure we will be there someday.
I don’t know if this had already been posted but it’s really good and deserves another look even if it has been. It is from Ray Reynolds, SFC Iowa Army National Guard 234th Signal Battalion. Yup, just another cheerleader.
Literature of Freedom : Good News In Iraq
Friday, February 10, 2006
A letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq
Dec 3, 2004
As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)
[i]Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
100% of the hospitals are open and
fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
An interim constitution has been signed.
Girls are allowed to attend school.
Textbooks that don’t mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.[/i]
Don’t believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.
Ray Reynolds, SFC Iowa Army National Guard 234th Signal Battalion
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I don’t know if this had already been posted but it’s really good and deserves another look even if it has been. It is from Ray Reynolds, SFC Iowa Army National Guard 234th Signal Battalion. Yup, just another cheerleader.
[/quote]
Recycling I see… maybe next time try changing his name to something like Roy Creynolds – say he’s from the 128th and then throw in a little truth.
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html
Iraq Utilities Are Falling Short of Prewar Performance
WASHINGTON, Feb. 8 - Virtually every measure of the performance of Iraq’s oil, electricity, water and sewerage sectors has fallen below preinvasion values even though $16 billion of American taxpayer money has already been disbursed in the Iraq reconstruction program, several government witnesses said at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Wednesday.
At the same time, as Iraq’s oil exports plummet and the country remains saddled with tens of billions of dollars of debt, it is unclear where that money will come from, said one of the witnesses, Joseph A. Christoff, director of international affairs and trade at the Government Accountability Office.
And those may not be the most serious problems facing Iraq’s pipelines, storage tanks, power lines, electrical switching stations and other structures, said Stuart W. Bowen Jr., the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction, an independent office.
In one sense, focusing on the plummeting performance numbers “misses the point,” Mr. Bowen said. The real question, he said, is whether the Iraqi security forces will ever be able to protect the infrastructure from insurgent attack.
Mr. Bowen pointed out in his testimony that the news on reconstruction in Iraq is not all bad. Despite the recent financing and performance shortfalls, the rebuilding program now seems to be much less ridden by fraud, corruption and chaos than it was in the early days when people like Mr. Stein were in charge.
Official US agency paints dire picture of ‘out-of-control’ Iraq
January 18, 2006
An official assessment drawn up by the US foreign aid agency depicts the security situation in Iraq as dire, amounting to a “social breakdown” in which criminals have “almost free rein”.
The “conflict assessment” is an attachment to an invitation to contractors to bid on a project rehabilitating Iraqi cities published earlier this month by the US Agency for International Development (USAid).
The picture it paints is not only darker than the optimistic accounts from the White House and the Pentagon, it also gives a more complex profile of the insurgency than the straightforward “rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists” described by George Bush.
Meanwhile, foreign jihadist groups are growing in strength, the report said.
“External fighters and organisations such as al-Qaida and the Iraqi offshoot led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are gaining in number and notoriety as significant actors,” USAid’s assessment said. “Recruitment into the ranks of these organisations takes place throughout the Sunni Muslim world, with most suicide bombers coming from Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region.”
The assessment conflicted sharply with recent Pentagon claims that Zarqawi’s group was in “disarray”
Oil Graft Fuels the Insurgency, Iraq and US Say
February,5 2006
Ali Allawi, Iraq’s finance minister, estimated that insurgents reap 40 percent to 50 percent of all oil-smuggling profits in the country. Offering an example of how illicit oil products are kept flowing on the black market, he said that the insurgency had infiltrated senior management positions at the major northern refinery in Baiji and routinely terrorized truck drivers there. This allows the insurgents and their confederates to tap the pipeline, empty the trucks and sell the oil or gas themselves.
“It’s gone beyond Nigeria levels now where it really threatens national security,” Mr. Allawi said of the oil industry. “The insurgents are involved at all levels.”
American officials here echo that view. “It’s clear that corruption funds the insurgency, so there you have a very real threat to the new state,” said an American official who is involved in anticorruption efforts but refused to be identified to preserve his ability to work with Iraqi officials. “Corruption really has the potential of undercutting the growth potential here.”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/020606E.shtml
Sorry dude.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
I don’t know if this had already been posted but it’s really good and deserves another look even if it has been. It is from Ray Reynolds, SFC Iowa Army National Guard 234th Signal Battalion. Yup, just another cheerleader.
Recycling I see… maybe next time try changing his name to something like Roy Creynolds – say he’s from the 128th and then throw in a little truth.
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html
Iraq Utilities Are Falling Short of Prewar Performance
WASHINGTON, Feb. 8 - Virtually every measure of the performance of Iraq’s oil, electricity, water and sewerage sectors has fallen below preinvasion values even though $16 billion of American taxpayer money has already been disbursed in the Iraq reconstruction program, several government witnesses said at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Wednesday.
At the same time, as Iraq’s oil exports plummet and the country remains saddled with tens of billions of dollars of debt, it is unclear where that money will come from, said one of the witnesses, Joseph A. Christoff, director of international affairs and trade at the Government Accountability Office.
And those may not be the most serious problems facing Iraq’s pipelines, storage tanks, power lines, electrical switching stations and other structures, said Stuart W. Bowen Jr., the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction, an independent office.
In one sense, focusing on the plummeting performance numbers “misses the point,” Mr. Bowen said. The real question, he said, is whether the Iraqi security forces will ever be able to protect the infrastructure from insurgent attack.
Mr. Bowen pointed out in his testimony that the news on reconstruction in Iraq is not all bad. Despite the recent financing and performance shortfalls, the rebuilding program now seems to be much less ridden by fraud, corruption and chaos than it was in the early days when people like Mr. Stein were in charge.
Official US agency paints dire picture of ‘out-of-control’ Iraq
January 18, 2006
An official assessment drawn up by the US foreign aid agency depicts the security situation in Iraq as dire, amounting to a “social breakdown” in which criminals have “almost free rein”.
The “conflict assessment” is an attachment to an invitation to contractors to bid on a project rehabilitating Iraqi cities published earlier this month by the US Agency for International Development (USAid).
The picture it paints is not only darker than the optimistic accounts from the White House and the Pentagon, it also gives a more complex profile of the insurgency than the straightforward “rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists” described by George Bush.
Meanwhile, foreign jihadist groups are growing in strength, the report said.
“External fighters and organisations such as al-Qaida and the Iraqi offshoot led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are gaining in number and notoriety as significant actors,” USAid’s assessment said. “Recruitment into the ranks of these organisations takes place throughout the Sunni Muslim world, with most suicide bombers coming from Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region.”
The assessment conflicted sharply with recent Pentagon claims that Zarqawi’s group was in “disarray”
Oil Graft Fuels the Insurgency, Iraq and US Say
February,5 2006
Ali Allawi, Iraq’s finance minister, estimated that insurgents reap 40 percent to 50 percent of all oil-smuggling profits in the country. Offering an example of how illicit oil products are kept flowing on the black market, he said that the insurgency had infiltrated senior management positions at the major northern refinery in Baiji and routinely terrorized truck drivers there. This allows the insurgents and their confederates to tap the pipeline, empty the trucks and sell the oil or gas themselves.
“It’s gone beyond Nigeria levels now where it really threatens national security,” Mr. Allawi said of the oil industry. “The insurgents are involved at all levels.”
American officials here echo that view. “It’s clear that corruption funds the insurgency, so there you have a very real threat to the new state,” said an American official who is involved in anticorruption efforts but refused to be identified to preserve his ability to work with Iraqi officials. “Corruption really has the potential of undercutting the growth potential here.”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/020606E.shtml
Sorry dude.
[/quote]
This is my major concern with our progress. After all the money and lives we’ve put into this, Iraq’s utilities are actually worse now than before the war started. Unbelieveable.
How is it that I never hear about this shit on CNN?
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/62586.htm
BRINGING POWER TO THE PEOPLE
By RALPH PETERS
March 2, 2006 – ONE of the most persistent myths about Iraq is that our efforts to im prove the electrical system failed. That’s just plain wrong. The country’s in far better shape than it was under Saddam.
But freedom always has a cost: In this case, the demand for power soared after Saddam fell ? and crashed the grid. It’s been a long, hard fight to get it back up.
Iraq never had an adequate power grid. Under the Ba’athist regime, Baghdad might have enjoyed power 18 or 20 hours a day, but other cities got three or four. One of the first things we did was to distribute power more equitably. Baghdad gets less, so its residents complain ? but if you’re in almost any other Iraqi city, you’re far better off today than you were three years ago.
In the wake of the war, we faced two immediate problems:
-
First: The grid was even more decrepit than the worst pessimists had suspected. Saddam never funded electrification adequately; spare-parts money from the Oil-For-Food program went to build palaces and monuments instead.
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Second: As soon as the borders opened, appliances flowed in, from refrigerators to air-conditioners to satellite dishes (the dishes are everywhere). Money came out from under a few million beds and the country went on a massive shopping spree that hasn’t ended. As soon as the Saddam-era system was exposed to “normal” demands, it crashed.
Nonetheless, power generation last July averaged 5,300 megawatts; the top pre-war peak was 4,300. Just now, output’s down to 3,900 to 4,200 megawatts? because the system’s being serviced and upgraded to meet this summer’s demands.
Power matters. As one ranking official (who preferred not to be named) put it, “Power is the Iraqis’ No. 1 concern” and “the center of gravity” for our efforts. Power outages affect far more lives than terrorism does.
The insurgents and terrorists realize this. The progress to date has come despite frequent attacks on transmission lines and on the pipelines that fuel the power plants (another action that turns Iraqis against our mutual enemies).
Plus, as American managers frankly admit, Iraqis never had a culture of maintenance. Under Saddam, the attitude of employees toward state property echoed the Soviet Union: Nobody owned anything, so nobody cared about anything. You couldn’t get a worker to change the oil. Iraq’s developing better attitudes ? but it takes time.
We also made some early misjudgments ? for one, overestimating Iraqis’ ability to manage sophisticated technologies. We brought in gas turbines whose control systems were beyond the local engineers’ technical skills. (One U.S. official tells of showing computer models to a middle-aged Iraqi who broke down in tears as he realized his professional life had been wasted under Saddam ? his country had missed the entire microchip revolution.)
Since then, we’ve simplified whatever we could. Still, as Corps of Engineers civilian David Leach puts it, “The industry standard moved so far [since Saddam took power] that even the least-sophisticated systems now available can be a challenge for Iraqis.” (Leach, by the way, was the corps’ New York metro-area engineer before volunteering for Iraq ? and he’s a veteran of the 9/11 recovery effort.)
Col. John Medeiros, an Air Force civil engineer, is convinced that “Iraqis want to succeed,” and that “the job’s getting done.” He’s impressed by the local thirst for knowledge after the information drought under Saddam. As for developing competent Iraqi managers, he calls it "escaping ‘Insh’Allah’ " ? that is, the habit of shrugging off personal responsibility for getting a tough job done.
Medeiros points out another overlooked factor about our efforts: Many of our projects have been long-term; some major installations are only now coming on line (despite the challenges, 130 projects have been completed).
The challenge isn’t just power generation, either. Everything was decrepit, from sub-stations to the power lines themselves. We faced a daunting task. And our fellow Americans in Iraq have done a far better job than they’ve received credit for doing.
We aren’t just fixing it all while the Iraqis watch, either. We couldn’t. The cost would be prohibitive, and rebuilding the entire power system was never our intention. Our goal was to jump-start the system, then teach Iraqis how to do it ? and more and more projects are now carried out by Iraqi firms and ministries, with U.S. officials offering only supervision and advice.
Iraqis won’t be fully content for years, of course. They desperately want to be part of the modern world ? and that’s going to take a long time. Meanwhile, they’re finding workarounds. Many Baghdad neighborhoods have chipped in to buy communal generators to provide reliable power to their homes. Not the perfect system, but it buys time for development.
Significant problems remain, no question about it. Iraq was a ruined country. But things are going far better than you’ve been told.
Still, painting an idealized picture would be as dishonest as the left’s claims that everything in Iraq’s been a massive failure. We did get some things downright wrong. So I’ll give the last word to Vicky Wayne of the Project and Contracting Office, an outfit working beside the Corps of Engineers’ Gulf Region Division.
Vicky’s a volunteer from San Francisco who took an 80 percent pay cut to help out in Iraq. “We set out on grand reconstruction projects,” she said, speaking of our early missteps, “but Iraqis have no long-term visions. They wanted short-term relief. We could have done quick, easy things that would have mitigated the dissatisfaction.” She also believes that the Iraqi expats the administration empowered “did terrible damage.”
She’s dead right. But we’ve made great progress, anyway. Because of magnificent Americans like Vicky Wayne.
Ralph Peters is on assignment in Iraq for The Post.
Forget precision – here comes “Operation Parking Lot”
Lethal ‘flying gunships’ returning to Iraq
AP: Armed airplanes used in Vietnam War secretly moved to Iraqi base
“They made a desolation, and called it peace”
~Tacitus