[quote]mike08042 wrote:
Bunch of stupid shit was written in this space.
[/quote]
Point?
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
I am honestly sorry if this post offends you, but can you explain why? I actually have no idea why all the vets are so pissed at kerry. If you want to PM me, that’d be great too. Or if this is too sensitive a topic, that’s fine. I’m jsut really curious.[/quote]
When Kerry returned to the States he testified to the Senate about the progress of the war. He said things about war crimes and atrocities committed by American solidiers.
While we all know atrocities happen in war, Kerry did not witness any of these things, but he certainly implied it was very widespread.
Many vets saw this as a huge shot at the them.
He also hung out with the antiwar crowd. Some (not all) of the antiwar crowd, such as Jane Fonda made statements that they actually wanted North Vietnam to win.
Some of the antiwar crowd sent food and medicval supplied to North Vietnam.
You can see how this would piss off the vets.
I don’t suppose it matters what Kerry himself did? Oh fuck it, who cares anyway. Kerry is such a dead horse these days… let the flies buzz already.
Something that might help is if we avoid the black and white concepts. As ProfX was arguing, the choices weren’t to attack Iraq or do nothing about terrorism.
People that try to pry open the issues and point out other choices aren’t necessarily expressing an opinion of opposition to the actions taken.
There is nothing wrong with looking into things and thinking about what they imply or mean. Some folks are a little oversensitive or overdefensive in this regard.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Joe, there’s people I strongly disagree with in our little political threads here, but I have strong degree of respect for many of them.
I would rather carry on a nice relationship with people, but in your case you play a lot of games and are pretty childish. You seek a lot of attention and if you perceive your feelings to be hurt you whine to the point of nausea.
I never discussed any thing with ProfX. I gathered what I said from reading your posts about him.
There is a life outside of the internet. You should go explore it. (Brace yourself for twenty one line posts from jw now).
[/quote]
Last time, Elk: it’s not about my feelings. It’ll take more than you to hurt my feelings. It’s about you being a hypocrite, pure and simple.
mike,
Welcome to the forum.
Excellent post.
POX’s response was a very typical answer. As I understand it, it goes something like this, “Iraq was a problem that would have eventually have to have been dealt with. However, intel was faulty so the premise was faulty.” I don’t understand his “solid planning” thing.
Anyway, my questions are this: How would it have helped us to wait? How many Iraqi sponsored terrorist attacks needed to occur to convince POX and his pals that this guy was a prime example of a terrorist supporting regime?
He tries to parse the 9/11 thing. Even if Saddam didn’t directly finance the attacks, he sure as hell was a supporter of terrorism smack in the middle of the region. He sure as hell LOVED the attack. I can find you the police mural we found celebrating the towers coming down.
POX can’t (or won’t) understand how much the Iraqi invasion has meant in our international diplomacy. He refuses to understand that there are tyrannical regimes who stood up and took notice. W. means business.
It doesn’t matter if the POX’s of the world refuse to see it, the proof is in the results. Please see the 500,000 tons of vx/ricin/nuclear weaponary VOLUNTARILY given up by Qadaffi. See the internal reforms going on in Saudi. See the border sweeps and raids in Pakistan. See the (at least symbolic) moves the Syrians are taking to close their Iraqi border. Some Syrian/Lebanese commentators have even said the pullout of Syrian troops in Lebanon is due to the Iraqi War.
One final point, remember that the POX’s of the world DO NOT listen or refuse to REMEMBER what was actually said by George W. Bush. Type in 2002 speeches and you will see literally DOZENS of reasons W. gave to go to war in Iraq. Stockpiles of WMD was but one of them. He also stated quite clearly the deterrance factor.
He thinks that W. used 9/11 as a convienent pretence for invasion. He refuses to acknowledge the actual discussions going on in his beloved Clinton Administration about regime change. Bush’s continuation of that particular dogma was not resisted or particularly conterversial before 9/11. POX forgets that a state of war existed between 1991 and the decision to invade. He refuses to remember the daily firing on of our planes by the Iraqis. AMERICAN PLANES. He refuses to acknowledge that there were plently of people who were 100% aware of the impending OIL FOR FOOD charade in our government. Then you go right down the line into breaking the cease fire agreements and making a mockery of the U.N. and you have MANY, MANY reasons to invade.
Remember, that for POX to admit the Iraq War was justified, he would have to admit he was wrong. There lies the crux of the issue.
JeffR
[quote]JeffR wrote:
Anyway, my questions are this: How would it have helped us to wait? JeffR[/quote]
How has it helped us directly to not wait? What has been the greatest American benefit to the war occuring when it did?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Anyway, my questions are this: How would it have helped us to wait? JeffR
How has it helped us directly to not wait? What has been the greatest American benefit to the war occuring when it did? [/quote]
A question with a question? Can you at least hazard a guess to the origional question before you ask a follow up?
Thanks,
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
A question with a question? Can you at least hazard a guess to the origional question before you ask a follow up?
Thanks,
V[/quote]
Check the other pages. I have been asking this for quite a while now. In fact, I asked this question before I was asked anything. So now, whose your daddy?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
I am honestly sorry if this post offends you, but can you explain why? I actually have no idea why all the vets are so pissed at kerry. If you want to PM me, that’d be great too. Or if this is too sensitive a topic, that’s fine. I’m jsut really curious.
When Kerry returned to the States he testified to the Senate about the progress of the war. He said things about war crimes and atrocities committed by American solidiers.
While we all know atrocities happen in war, Kerry did not witness any of these things, but he certainly implied it was very widespread.
Many vets saw this as a huge shot at the them.
He also hung out with the antiwar crowd. Some (not all) of the antiwar crowd, such as Jane Fonda made statements that they actually wanted North Vietnam to win.
Some of the antiwar crowd sent food and medicval supplied to North Vietnam.
You can see how this would piss off the vets.
[/quote]
It was a war, there were autrocities. I have never met anyone that thought otherwise. I don’t see why vets would be pissed off about that. If they didn’t commit them, why would it matter to them? If they did commit/witness them, I can’t see why they wouldn’t be open about it. That being said, my mother went to university (in the USSR) with a lot of vietnamese girls, and it seems that autrocities during the war did occur (of course, I have no idea how common they were).
And why would vets be uset by humanitarian aid? Vietnam lost 3.4 million during that war, I don’t see how helping civilians is an outrage. And what is wrong with being anti-war? Anti-war doesn’t mean anti-soldier. Christ, the only veterans my family knows fought for the VC, and I still have great respect for the vets.
But I don’t see how anyone, looking back, could disagree that the war was a bad idea. The second attack on the US ship never happened (it is believed that marine-life created the illusion of incoming fire), the VC had no interest in communism, hated the chinese, and did not want to take over the world. To them, it was a civil war, and they needed the USSR to help, in response to the south being backed by the US. Again, I greatly recommend you guys watch “The Fog of War”, if you don’t believe my crazy, left-wing commie-loving rantings, maybe you’ll believe MacNamara, when he says these same things.
Sorry for the hijack, but it seems pertinent. It IS ok to admit a mistake has been made, as long as you try to avoid that same mistake in the future. As a great man once said
“We cannot resort to the method of hiding our errors so they cannot be seen. That would neither be honest nor revolutionary. From our errors, one can learn as well…”
Sadly, it seems the opposite of this has become the norm, with everyone too concerned with saving face to admit their mistakes, and take responsibility.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Vegita wrote:
A question with a question? Can you at least hazard a guess to the origional question before you ask a follow up?
Thanks,
V
Check the other pages. I have been asking this for quite a while now. In fact, I asked this question before I was asked anything. So now, whose your daddy?[/quote]
Sorry, all the activity on the political threads lately has limited my memory to the current page of each one.
Jeff answer the man (my daddy) so we can hear his answer.
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
"Jeff answer the man (my daddy) so we can hear his answer.
V"[/quote]
Hey Vegita. POX doesn’t read any more than the first and last sentence of my posts.
I didn’t expect any discussion from him and didn’t get any.
I actually answered what I think was the most important result of the invasion coming when it did, deterrance. Even if POX can’t connect the dots, the tyrannical regimes sure the hell noticed. See my previous post regarding each of the regimes in detail.
I hope YOU haven’t fallen into the pattern of not reading my posts!!!
I’d be hurt!!!
JeffR
[quote]JeffR wrote:
You guys ever wonder what it would be like if we ever got together?
I have.
We’d have to clear the room.
We’d have Cream, Rainjack, Zap, Vegita, BB, Thunder, Zeb wearing our “Four more years” shirts on the right side of the table.
There would be lumpy, ILOVEGEORGEWBUSH1, Moore-iarty, tme, BrotherE, JTF wearing their “Bush lied, everyone died” shirts.
Off in the corner would lurk vroom. He’d be mumbling something tangential. Maybe, he’d preempt everything by saying, “The world is not black and white, people!!!”
Al Shades would be telling everyone at the table (in his high pitched voice) to look at his fantastic physique!!! He would say, “stop these formal meetings! We must disperse!!! There is too much organization here!!!” Every one of us would take turns looking at him and scaring him into the corner.
Alexander would automatically start lecturing us on the proper way to conduct a meeting. He would say, “My Dad said that there needed to be…”
Chinadoll would ref the whole proceeding. She would occassionaly make a frightening comment about “beheading terrorists.” The room would fall silent for a while before the discussions would resume.
POX would be invited. He wouldn’t come. He’d make some sort of comment like, “I don’t have time for you idiots.”
Boston Barrister would open the proceedings with a call to order. His opening speech would be eloquent and full of wonderful arguments. Thunder would second in equal eloquence.
Lumpy would interrupt with a comment about “sycophantic cheerleaders.” That would prompt me to slam my fist on the table and demand silence. Cream would say, “Amen.”
Justthefacts would bring in a 1983 report on inner city violence in Memphis. Then he would link this current administration to corruption in Sri Lanka.
Brother E, would shake his head and implore all of us to get a grip.
Rainjack would laugh at that. Then he would say, “How about some new ideas from the left side of the table?”
Moriarity would say, “Hey, why am I at the left side of the table? Does anyone have any proof that I belong here? Did you read my posts from early February? I was quite clear that I both love and hate W!!!”
Zeb would say, “Come on Moriarity!!! You are a liberal!!! I can prove it! Whoever can do the most pullups wins the argument.”
At this point, POX would barge in and try to scare all of us before stalking out.
ILOVEGEORGEWBUSH1 would take the opportunity to point at me and call me a “douche.”
Vegita would say, maybe we should discuss why I feel the Iraq War was justified. He would lay out in extensive detail his true feelings.
Lumpy’s eyes would glaze over.
Let’s all lighten up some. I’d love to hear your ideas on what would happen if we got together!!!
JeffR
[/quote]
This was actually quite funny.
Actually just the thought of a bodybuilding, “political” roundtable discussion made me laugh.
I wonder how many of us would show up at the meeting carrying their Igloo cooler? Hey I’ll trade you my chicken breast for your… chicken… breast.
On a more serious note: (sorry Dude)
Captured Al-Qaeda kingpin is case of ‘mistaken identity’
May 08, 2005
TIMES Online
A former close associate of Bin Laden now living in London laughed: “What I remember of him is he used to make the coffee and do the photocopying.” (at the Al-Qaeda corporate center no doubt)
THE capture of a supposed Al-Qaeda kingpin by Pakistani agents last week was hailed by President George W Bush as “a critical victory in the war on terror”. According to European intelligence experts, however, Abu Faraj al-Libbi was not the terrorists’ third in command, as claimed, but a middle-ranker derided by one source as “among the flotsam and jetsam” of the organisation.
Al-Libbi’s arrest in Pakistan, announced last Wednesday, was described in the United States as “a major breakthrough” in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden.
Bush called him a “top general” and “a major facilitator and chief planner for the Al-Qaeda network”. Condoleezza Rice, secretary of state, said he was “a very important figure”. Yet the backslapping in Washington and Islamabad has astonished European terrorism experts, who point out that the Libyan was neither on the FBI’s most wanted list, nor on that of the State Department “rewards for justice” programme.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
JeffR wrote:
You guys ever wonder what it would be like if we ever got together?
Let’s all lighten up some. I’d love to hear your ideas on what would happen if we got together!!!
JeffR
Actually just the thought of a bodybuilding, “political” roundtable discussion made me laugh.
I wonder how many of us would show up at the meeting carrying their Igloo cooler? Hey I’ll trade you my chicken breast for your… chicken… breast.
On a more serious note: (sorry Dude)
Captured Al-Qaeda kingpin is case of ‘mistaken identity’
May 08, 2005
TIMES Online
A former close associate of Bin Laden now living in London laughed: “What I remember of him is he used to make the coffee and do the photocopying.” (at the Al-Qaeda corporate center no doubt)
THE capture of a supposed Al-Qaeda kingpin by Pakistani agents last week was hailed by President George W Bush as “a critical victory in the war on terror”. According to European intelligence experts, however, Abu Faraj al-Libbi was not the terrorists’ third in command, as claimed, but a middle-ranker derided by one source as “among the flotsam and jetsam” of the organisation.
Al-Libbi’s arrest in Pakistan, announced last Wednesday, was described in the United States as “a major breakthrough” in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden.
Bush called him a “top general” and “a major facilitator and chief planner for the Al-Qaeda network”. Condoleezza Rice, secretary of state, said he was “a very important figure”. Yet the backslapping in Washington and Islamabad has astonished European terrorism experts, who point out that the Libyan was neither on the FBI’s most wanted list, nor on that of the State Department “rewards for justice” programme.
“Bad intelligence.”
Whoa! What is this? Are you trying to suggest that the government doesn’t always tell us the truth, that at the very least it could be mistaken?
You must be a communist or something!
I simply cannot believe a government or an administration would seek to make themselves look better by inflating progress reports.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I simply cannot believe a government or an administration would seek to make themselves look better by inflating progress reports.[/quote]
why not? You inflate your lift #'s to make yourself look better…
(rolling eyes, whistling and walking away…)
[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
vroom wrote:
I simply cannot believe a government or an administration would seek to make themselves look better by inflating progress reports.
why not? You inflate your lift #'s to make yourself look better…
(rolling eyes, whistling and walking away…)
[/quote]
BURN!!
More good news today!!!
Amar al-Zubaydi, aide to Zarqawi, captured today along with six more terrorists.
JeffR
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
I am honestly sorry if this post offends you, but can you explain why? I actually have no idea why all the vets are so pissed at kerry. If you want to PM me, that’d be great too. Or if this is too sensitive a topic, that’s fine. I’m jsut really curious.
When Kerry returned to the States he testified to the Senate about the progress of the war. He said things about war crimes and atrocities committed by American solidiers.
While we all know atrocities happen in war, Kerry did not witness any of these things, but he certainly implied it was very widespread.
Many vets saw this as a huge shot at the them.
He also hung out with the antiwar crowd. Some (not all) of the antiwar crowd, such as Jane Fonda made statements that they actually wanted North Vietnam to win.
Some of the antiwar crowd sent food and medicval supplied to North Vietnam.
You can see how this would piss off the vets.
It was a war, there were autrocities. I have never met anyone that thought otherwise. I don’t see why vets would be pissed off about that. If they didn’t commit them, why would it matter to them? If they did commit/witness them, I can’t see why they wouldn’t be open about it. That being said, my mother went to university (in the USSR) with a lot of vietnamese girls, and it seems that autrocities during the war did occur (of course, I have no idea how common they were).
And why would vets be uset by humanitarian aid? Vietnam lost 3.4 million during that war, I don’t see how helping civilians is an outrage. And what is wrong with being anti-war? Anti-war doesn’t mean anti-soldier. Christ, the only veterans my family knows fought for the VC, and I still have great respect for the vets.
But I don’t see how anyone, looking back, could disagree that the war was a bad idea. The second attack on the US ship never happened (it is believed that marine-life created the illusion of incoming fire), the VC had no interest in communism, hated the chinese, and did not want to take over the world. To them, it was a civil war, and they needed the USSR to help, in response to the south being backed by the US. Again, I greatly recommend you guys watch “The Fog of War”, if you don’t believe my crazy, left-wing commie-loving rantings, maybe you’ll believe MacNamara, when he says these same things.
Sorry for the hijack, but it seems pertinent. It IS ok to admit a mistake has been made, as long as you try to avoid that same mistake in the future. As a great man once said
“We cannot resort to the method of hiding our errors so they cannot be seen. That would neither be honest nor revolutionary. From our errors, one can learn as well…”
Sadly, it seems the opposite of this has become the norm, with everyone too concerned with saving face to admit their mistakes, and take responsibility.[/quote]
John Kerry’s testimony implied that ALL US soldiers participated in war crimes/atrocities. I am sure that all the vets didn’t appreciate this.
The “humanitarian aid” sent to the North Vietnamese by some in the antiwar movement (not John Kerry) went straight to the NVA soldiers fighting US soldiers.
Even if you are antiwar you should not be sending supplies to the terrorists.
When the soldiers came home from Vietnam some of them were spit on by war prostestors.
Between Kerrys accusations and his associates actions John Kerry was greatly disliked many vets.
Whether this is fair or not is up to each to decide.
Hijack over.
[quote]why not? You inflate your lift #'s to make yourself look better…
(rolling eyes, whistling and walking away…)
[/quote]
ROFLMFAO. Finally, Joe says something truly funny! Nice shot!