GM to Lay Off 25,000 People

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

Mo:

You know what tends to amaze me?

How people in upper management…who are paid VERY well to do so…can allow the marketplace and trends in auto buying to completely take them by “surprise”?

Are they that inept?

OR is it the old “turning around an aircraft carrier” analogy…in other words, is GM so large bureaucratic that its difficult for it to respond rapidly to the marketplace?

It seems to me that they would have learned their lessons when they were “caught off guard” by the Japanese in the late 70’s and into the 80’s…

Any thoughts?

Mufasa

22

I worked breifly in the steel industry in the late seventies and early eighties. The whole industry went to hell in the Regan administration.
I left the steel town and moved west, it is a different economy here .
When I go home it makes me wonder if my home town is like eastern Europe.
My point is whether G.M. makes it or not is not point . The reagon of the country has to let there Union mentality go or it will strangle them.
If you want to open a bussinessinmy home town the first people you deal with are the old unions wanting to negotiate labor contracts. They will kill your bussiness plan before you can get it off the ground.
I wish this site had spell check :slight_smile:

23

[quote]MO wrote:
You know, I usually just lurk around here because I find so much usefull information, but it just so happened I saw this thread and had to respond. And yes, I work for GM, and yes, I am a union member. It just amazes me how many people regurgitate info without having any kind of substance to back it up - or without seriously considering the comment that they make. GM’s current situation is the UAW’s fault?

MO[/quote]

The UAW was good at one time. I realise that upper management has made it’s bad decisions, however you have to admit that the UAW hasn’t helped at all. Oh and I do have substance in what I am saying. I have a Grandfather who was in upper mamanagement until 1984 with 41 years senioroity, and My father was there until 2000 with 38 years in when he passed away, my Father in law is still employed there along with 5 aunts and uncle’s and numerous friends. Don’t tell me I have no idea of what happens in the shop and also don’t let your union pride get in the way of admitting that the UAW has really fucked up.

I went down to the union hall after my father passed away so I could get his tool chest and guess how many comittee men were sitting down there on their ass bragging about all of the overtime they were getting and while being half cocked? Three of them to be exact. On top of it the cocksuckers wouldn’t even help me put in the bed of my truck, they called in two other millwrights to help me.

As for the “suits” that are at the downtown pubs. I have seen them and many are Self empolyed lawyers, insurance agents, stock brokers etc. . Not people who are on “the clock employees” (maybe some are) who have their buddies punch them in and out while collecting time and a half for overtime, go back to work and get busted by upper management and have the good old UAW step in and bail them out. I know of of one jackass who had been busted 6 times for drinking on the job and the 6th time he only got busted because he was injured and finally he got time off but guess what? he is back to work. Yes, I have stories and stories as well and you cannot say there aren’t credible just because I do not work there.

Lastly you say that it isnt GM’s quality but it is because what they have to offer is “boring”. Then what the hell was the point of the paragraph previous to this paragraph regarding your piece of shit Suburban?

Their are the bad apples of the UAW and I know there are good ones. But as a whole the UAW has clearly taken advantage of their rights they earned in the early years of the UAW. And I am not saying that the UAW is the the only problem, Im saying that it is one of the major problems.

Also what publication put GM right behind Toyota? I find it tough to believe that GM was rated above Honda or Nissan. Or maybe this was a case of GM upper management pissing away money to get good ratings in a particular publication. jk

TR

24

[quote]fingolfin wrote:

  • Union is part of the problem too.(sorry previous poster. I’ve seen too much and read too much analysis to think otherwise)

Yeah we should buy american, but i refuse to if I feel the company has F-upped and if they don’t have a car I want. Also, the american short sighted fixation (consumer & manufacturer) on SUVs and mega pick ups trucks makes my blood boil. [/quote]

Hey, we are not blameless. I’ll be the first to admit it - I’m just pointing out that if you think the UAW is the major reason for GM’s woes, well you are sadly mistaken. You can be anti-union all you want, but you can’t make ice cream outta shit - and right now that’s what GM is bringing to the table. And while I subscribe to the buy American theory (when possible), you certainly don’t have to. It’s our (GM and employees) duty to make products that would change your mind - and I don’t see any (but some may be coming). I don’t blame you one bit for not buying something that you do not want - in fact, that was the gist of my first post, that GM has a less than exciting line of products (except for the new Caddy’s, and the Vet). Hey the only car out there that I would buy right now is the Mustang. And my favorite truck (I’m a truck guy) is the SuperDuty. I’m not sure where you are going with the truck, SUV thing. Sorry.

25

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Mo:

You know what tends to amaze me?

How people in upper management…who are paid VERY well to do so…can allow the marketplace and trends in auto buying to completely take them by “surprise”?

Are they that inept?

OR is it the old “turning around an aircraft carrier” analogy…in other words, is GM so large bureaucratic that its difficult for it to respond rapidly to the marketplace?

Any thoughts?

Mufasa[/quote]

I don’t know - you tell me. What do you see about GM that you like? Take a look at the stock - what does Wall Street see that they like? Read the mags - how many GM products do you see? The Japanese don’t seem to have any problems responding to the marketplace. And now Toyota is building vehicles here in the USA - with American employees, parts, and suppliers. How come they can make it happen, and GM can’t?

26

[quote]trailrash wrote:
MO wrote:
You know, I usually just lurk around here because I find so much usefull information, but it just so happened I saw this thread and had to respond. And yes, I work for GM, and yes, I am a union member. It just amazes me how many people regurgitate info without having any kind of substance to back it up - or without seriously considering the comment that they make. GM’s current situation is the UAW’s fault?

MO

The UAW was good at one time. I realise that upper management has made it’s bad decisions, however you have to admit that the UAW hasn’t helped at all. Oh and I do have substance in what I am saying. I have a Grandfather who was in upper mamanagement until 1984 with 41 years senioroity, and My father was there until 2000 with 38 years in when he passed away, my Father in law is still employed there along with 5 aunts and uncle’s and numerous friends. Don’t tell me I have no idea of what happens in the shop and also don’t let your union pride get in the way of admitting that the UAW has really fucked up.

I went down to the union hall after my father passed away so I could get his tool chest and guess how many comittee men were sitting down there on their ass bragging about all of the overtime they were getting and while being half cocked? Three of them to be exact. On top of it the cocksuckers wouldn’t even help me put in the bed of my truck, they called in two other millwrights to help me.

As for the “suits” that are at the downtown pubs. I have seen them and many are Self empolyed lawyers, insurance agents, stock brokers etc. . Not people who are on “the clock employees” (maybe some are) who have their buddies punch them in and out while collecting time and a half for overtime, go back to work and get busted by upper management and have the good old UAW step in and bail them out. I know of of one jackass who had been busted 6 times for drinking on the job and the 6th time he only got busted because he was injured and finally he got time off but guess what? he is back to work. Yes, I have stories and stories as well and you cannot say there aren’t credible just because I do not work there.

Lastly you say that it isnt GM’s quality but it is because what they have to offer is “boring”. Then what the hell was the point of the paragraph previous to this paragraph regarding your piece of shit Suburban?

Their are the bad apples of the UAW and I know there are good ones. But as a whole the UAW has clearly taken advantage of their rights they earned in the early years of the UAW. And I am not saying that the UAW is the the only problem, Im saying that it is one of the major problems.

Also what publication put GM right behind Toyota? I find it tough to believe that GM was rated above Honda or Nissan. Or maybe this was a case of GM upper management pissing away money to get good ratings in a particular publication. jk

TR
[/quote]

All right - it’s late (for me) but your post just popped up so let me see if I can walk you through it:

First of all - I never told you that you had no idea what you were talking about - I don’t believe that I even addressed you, so don’t get all butt-hurt over it.

Second, I am proud of what the union has accomplished. AND, I think that I already admitted that it is less than perfect in it’s current form. But they fucked up? Expound on that, would ya?

And Dad was a UAW member, huh? I wonder who made it possible for him to feed his family, take them on vacations, have health insurance, and dental insurance (you do have good teeth, don’t you)?

As for your tool chest story, well, it may be true, and I won’t call you a liar cuz I wasn’t there, but very rarely are committeemen or millwrights or any other tradespeople at a union hall. They are located in the plant, where the personal belongings of deceased employees usually stay until they are picked up - but your case could be different - just sounds fishy.

Oh, and I agree - you own your business, you do whatever the hell you want - but don’t YOU tell ME that every person in a bar or having drinks with their lunch, or while playing golf between the hours of 9 to 5 is self employed - it makes you look silly.

As for the quality issue, I was alluding to the fact that it wasn’t the quality of the work done by the union employees that was the question, it’s the quality of design, both of the vehicle as a whole, and their sub-assemblies, and even individual parts that are delivered by suppliers that GM leans on way to hard, thus leading to the cutting of corners in THEIR workmanship.

I don’t know the name of the publication or organization that did the quality survey, but I will get it for you in the next day or two. It just came out.

Lastly, you seem to know a lot of jackasses and cocksuckers, maybe you should try running with a different crowd. Or is your name foretelling?
Lose the rage, dude, it’s lost on me.

27

[quote]MO wrote:
And Dad was a UAW member, huh? I wonder who made it possible for him to feed his family, take them on vacations, have health insurance, and dental insurance (you do have good teeth, don’t you)?[/quote]

There are way more people in America who aren’t in unions than who are who are able to feed their families, take them on vacations, and have health insurance and dental insurance.

If you have a skill or provide a service that is needed, you will be justly compensated. If you do a job that chimps could be trained to do, you may need a union to make sure you get paid more than you are worth. Unions are just a drain on the economy.

28

That is true - although there are probably more union employees than you realize: teachers, firefighters, police, nurses, truck drivers, construction workers, airline mechanics and machinists, airline pilots. Hell, there are even some engineers that are unionized. Yeah they are probably all overpaid.

What do you suppose that the median wage for all non-union workers is?

But hey, support who you want. Have your children educated by chimps, and drive a car built by chimps, and go shop at WalMart - you will be boosting the economy afterall - of China.

29

[quote]
First of all - I never told you that you had no idea what you were talking about - I don’t believe that I even addressed you, so don’t get all butt-hurt over it. [/quote]

Maybe this comment made me think that you believe that anyone on here that posted a negative comment about the UAW didn’t know what we were talking about. “It just amazes me how many people regurgitate info without having any kind of substance to back it up - or without seriously considering the comment that they make.”

[quote]
Second, I am proud of what the union has accomplished. AND, I think that I already admitted that it is less than perfect in it’s current form. But they fucked up? Expound on that, would ya? [/quote]

Fucked up in the sense that they have totally abused their power and allow the workers to get away with damn near whatever they want to.

[quote]
And Dad was a UAW member, huh? I wonder who made it possible for him to feed his family, take them on vacations, have health insurance, and dental insurance (you do have good teeth, don’t you)? [/quote]

Did I not say that the UAW did serve it’s purpose and do a good job at one time? I will never deny that my family is fortunate for what the UAW helped us get.

[quote]
As for your tool chest story, well, it may be true, and I won’t call you a liar cuz I wasn’t there, but very rarely are committeemen or millwrights or any other tradespeople at a union hall. They are located in the plant, where the personal belongings of deceased employees usually stay until they are picked up - but your case could be different - just sounds fishy. [/quote]

Yes,
I just pulled this story out of my ass. But let me elaborate a bit more on it. I went to the union hall because that is where I thought I had to pick it up at. They went with me over to the shop, went inside and came out with the tool chest. It was at that point that they called the millwright to help me load it up. And yes I am quite sure they were committee men and maybe it was coincidence that were at the hall. I just found it odd how all 3 of them couldn’t help me load it.

Did ya not read this part? “Not people who are on “the clock employees” (maybe some are)”

[quote]
As for the quality issue, I was alluding to the fact that it wasn’t the quality of the work done by the union employees that was the question, it’s the quality of design, both of the vehicle as a whole, and their sub-assemblies, and even individual parts that are delivered by suppliers that GM leans on way to hard, thus leading to the cutting of corners in THEIR workmanship [/quote]

This is a whole new topic here.

It doesn’t really matter. It was only meant to be a joke regarding GM pissing away their money.

Funny one. Please read the name a bit more closely and then maybe you can elaborate on your humor. And I spoke of one jackass that yes, I do know and 3 cocksuckers whom I did not know. If my crowd consisted of only these 4 people then you you would be right, I do need to run around with another crowd.

Like I said previously, there are the bad apples and the good ones. I also never said that the UAW was GM’s only problem. But I do think it is a problem that could have and should have been fixed 15 years ago along with the management problems. I do get a bit fired up about this topic because I live in a GM town and I am directly affected by what happens to them. So if it came off as rage, I didn’t mean to.

TR

30

What can I say… that sucks monkey balls! Ug. Glad im not living in the U.S. at this particular moment.

31

[quote]trailrash wrote:

First of all - I never told you that you had no idea what you were talking about - I don’t believe that I even addressed you, so don’t get all butt-hurt over it.

Maybe this comment made me think that you believe that anyone on here that posted a negative comment about the UAW didn’t know what we were talking about. “It just amazes me how many people regurgitate info without having any kind of substance to back it up - or without seriously considering the comment that they make.”[/quote]

My apologies - yes I did make that comment about the situation in general. It seemed to me that you were saying I specifically singled you out. Sorry.

[quote]

Second, I am proud of what the union has accomplished. AND, I think that I already admitted that it is less than perfect in it’s current form. But they fucked up? Expound on that, would ya?

Fucked up in the sense that they have totally abused their power and allow the workers to get away with damn near whatever they want to.[/quote]

Here, we kind of agree - and disagree. I will admit that there are definitely people that take advantage of the system. Do you think the Union is proud of them? Do you think that they want to portray that kind of image? They are very aware of the perception that the public may have about them, and trying very hard to improve their image - but at the same time, they do have obligations to their membership. For instance, look at our legal system. Take Michael Jackson, or O.J., should we do away with lawyers because they go those two off? And while some do get away with “murder”, I have seen people discharged for what amounts to a “jaywalking” penalty. It isn’t a perfect system, but it is what we have right now, and the union is evolving, and trying to change with the times and become a better partner. Remember, they (UAW) have a vested interest in GM well being.

[quote]
And Dad was a UAW member, huh? I wonder who made it possible for him to feed his family, take them on vacations, have health insurance, and dental insurance (you do have good teeth, don’t you)?

Did I not say that the UAW did serve it’s purpose and do a good job at one time? I will never deny that my family is fortunate for what the UAW helped us get. [/quote]

'Nuff said.

Well, at last - something we both agree on! Nobody wastes GM’s money better than GM!

[quote]
Lastly, you seem to know a lot of jackasses and cocksuckers, maybe you should try running with a different crowd. Or is your name foretelling?
Lose the rage, dude, it’s lost on me.

Funny one. Please read the name a bit more closely and then maybe you can elaborate on your humor. And I spoke of one jackass that yes, I do know and 3 cocksuckers whom I did not know. If my crowd consisted of only these 4 people then you you would be right, I do need to run around with another crowd. [/quote]

My bad. I had been awake for about 22 hours straight, and the screen was looking kind of fuzzy, and I thought it said “trailertrash” not “trailrash”. Regardless of what it said, it was uncalled for and I apologize.

[quote]
Like I said previously, there are the bad apples and the good ones. I also never said that the UAW was GM’s only problem. But I do think it is a problem that could have and should have been fixed 15 years ago along with the management problems. I do get a bit fired up about this topic because I live in a GM town and I am directly affected by what happens to them. So if it came off as rage, I didn’t mean to.

TR[/quote]

Another piece of common ground! I too live in a GM town (Flint), and sometimes get fired up. Don’t worry about it. I didn’t take it personal, and hope you don’t either. And hey, it’s just the internet - RAGE ON! Seriously, this kind of debate helps everybody see both sides of the equation. The more info that everybody has, the better they can make an informed decision.

32

A couple of good posts re: GM’s woes can be found here:

33

American cars are woeful. I also hate the fact that you guys don’t have gears, I mean its like your not driving at all!

34

How about the eight million pound elephant that sits in the corner of the room: that many auto workers make an outrageous amount of money for what they do, particularly on the factory floor? Why would GM pay $25+ per hour plus full benefits for UNSKILLED labor that’s worth less than $10/hr. in the rest of the world?

Or that Michigan’s tax structure is ridiculously anti-business, as the government there has been living off the fat of the Big Three for the better part of a century? The rest of the state had to diversify to a certain extent since the smaller manufacturing companies flooded to other states in the 1970’s and 1980’s owing largely to outrageous taxes. The popular bumper sticker then was: “Will the last one out of Michigan turn out the lights?” The entire community I lived in when I lived there was gutted when the two main manufacturers decided to move to… drumroll… Indiana! to avoid the unreasonable taxes. The UAW acted like the business was the bad guy but come on: why wouldn’t GM move its plants 100 miles and save 8% off its overhead? What the hell was it getting for that extra 8%? Good roads? Detroit Public Schools? Kwame Kilpatrick?

Unsurprisingly when Blanchard was voted out of office, MI’s state tax rates were the third highest in the country. Even now, after some sanity for a decade, compare the taxes in MI to states like FL where business is booming.

Michigan is 48th or 49th in the country in keeping college graduates and has been for almost a decade, as the choices are: work for the Big Three or work for someone servicing the Big Three titty. The titty is, sooner or later, going to get a big reduction. Detroit is about to go through what the rest of the region had to do to survive – make changes to attract business.

The UAW will, of course, oppose the free market to no effect, and its members are going to be out of work and out of years of ridiculous union dues, because having full dental and Cadillacs for the union reps is better than having jobs for their neighbors!

Or… the Detroit-Shithole Metro Area can just do what Flint and its good people did – nothing! Run up huge deficits and get taken over and bailed out by the rest of the state (it worked for Detroit Public Schools)! Let the weeds grow up over your house because you don’t have a job and you don’t want to move to where the work is (like your grandparents did)! Then michael moore will make a movie lionizing your foresight, industriousness, and villainizing all BIG BUSINESS!

35

[quote]ConorM wrote:
American cars are woeful. I also hate the fact that you guys don’t have gears, I mean its like your not driving at all![/quote]

Translation for the non-Irish crowd --“I hate the fact that your cars have engines! It’s really east to hurt yourself when you get drunk at your lunchbreak (10am -4pm)!”

36

[quote]T-Islander wrote:
What can I say… that sucks monkey balls! Ug. Glad im not living in the U.S. at this particular moment.[/quote]

And we’re really happy that you’re not here too! Stay away!

37

More than half of the ‘imported’ cars purchased here in the US are made in the good ol’ U.S. of A. by American workers. Buy American: buy BMW, Toyota, or Nissan. Just make sure you buy a locally produced model. If you buy any Chrysler product, it is essentially the same deal since Chrysler was acquired by Daimler Benz.

So even if GM goes completely under - which will take a while - automobiles will still be built in this country.

GM makes a few really nice cars. The Cadillac CTS-V is a really nice car, and so is the latest Corvette. The Cadillac XLR-V should be fantastic when it appears. See a pattern here? These are all rather expensive cars, and the volume is low. The new GTO is a nice car, but actually it’s made in Australia.

You cannot blame the unions for the boring designs put on the market by GM management. You cannot blame the unions for management’s decision to back away from the small car market over a period of decades. You cannot blame the unions for pissing away two billion dollars on a ridiculous deal to buy control of FIAT. You cannot blame the unions for the fact that even at this late date GM decided to make SUVs and light trucks its bread and butter, and delay working to field more attractive small cars, e.g. put hybrid technology into their products.

A columnist for the LATimes called them on this last one, and the GM CEO response was to cancel all advertising in the Times.

Sure, GM has a lot of retirees to take care of. But given that the Japanese have this problem too, and given the cluelessness of GM management, I have a hard time concluding from this layoff that the American Dream has priced itself out of the market.

38

Oh yeah, and incidentally, last year it was Chrysler and its unionized workers that saved Daimler-Benz’ ass on the bottom line: Chrysler generated enough black ink to blot out the red ink coming from Daimler’s Mercedes car division.

39

[quote]Cream wrote:
ConorM wrote:
American cars are woeful. I also hate the fact that you guys don’t have gears, I mean its like your not driving at all!

Translation for the non-Irish crowd --“I hate the fact that your cars have engines! It’s really east to hurt yourself when you get drunk at your lunchbreak (10am -4pm)!”[/quote]

This guy is mad about something…and it isn’t Americans.

40

I wish I were bullshitting here to make a point. I guess I am still bitter about this situation. They also really dropped the ball when they said they would help us out with a few situations. I figured after my Father served 38 years with them they wouldn’t have blew us off the way they did when we needed their assistance. But that is a whole other story.

I hope so man! It sucks that it took this long for them to put forth an effort to conform. I do hope it can be worked out. Obviously a lot of changes need to take place.

I don’t think the union is proud of them. But there are so many of these bad apples that still exist (I realise in a perfect world they wouldn’t be around) and they are just sitting tight, abiding by the rules and hoping that thier gravy train doesn’t come to an end soon. I don’t know what plant you are in and what local you are a part of but it sounds as though you may have your shit together better than other locals do.

[quote]
My bad. I had been awake for about 22 hours straight, and the screen was looking kind of fuzzy, and I thought it said “trailertrash” not “trailrash”. Regardless of what it said, it was uncalled for and I apologize. [/quote]

It’s all good. Add in your lack of sleep and my lack of sleep and bad mood that day and we had two attitudes going head to head.

true. very true. I remember about 10 years ago my Dad would tell me that they were really pushing it with some of the stuff they were asking for in the new contract. He felt then, that they were pushing buttons and it wasn’t but a few years later that most of the machines in his shop were all hooked up via a quick release type mechanism. He felt that was GM’s way of saying, “hey fuckers we can pull this shit out of here in no time if you keep pushing it”, and at one time they did pull a lot of it out but they were forced to bring it back by the UAW. It is just a shame to see this happen especially to a city like Flint who has been recuperating from cutbacks a few years ago, now they are being knocked back down again. This will either force them to become more self sufficient or it is going to turn into a real shit hole which is too bad (if Don Williamson doesnt do it first) HAHA.

TR