Global Warming Reaching Critical Point

Just for vroom, here is a link to a great post from the Diplomad blog – and I’m including the text and interior links so you don’t have to click it if you don’t want to do so:

http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/01/fight-global-warming-turn-on-ac-open.html

Wednesday, January 26, 2005

Fight Global Warming: Turn on the A/C & Open the Windows

Guilty.

I, The Chief Diplomad and Internet Bloviator, have let the readers down. I made fun of the UN’s 3,000 page ACTION PLAN ( http://unmp.forumone.com/index.html ) to save the world without actually reading it ( http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/01/great-things-afoot-un-to-save-world.html ). That is something the MSM would do – well, not the “make fun” part, but the “not reading” part." As a consequence, I have been cruising the internet for another stupid, vapid report that I could ridicule AND this time actually read. My lonely quest to ease my conscience was finally rewarded by these articles which pointed me to another Holy Grail of Left-Lib Stupidity,

Global warming: ‘Time is running out’ ( http://www.channel4.com/news/news_story.jsp?storyId=280965 )

[quote] Cabinet minister Stephen Byers has warned that Global warming could become irreversible within a decade. The US must be persuaded to act now or it will be to (sic) late to undo climate change, Mr Byers said. Tony Blair has made action on the issue a priority for his chairmanship of the G7 this year. That may represent a last chance to address the problem, according to the International Climate Change Task Force, which Mr Byers chairs.

Carbon dioxide concentrations will become so great within ten to 20 years that cuts will be futile, the task force says in a report out later. [/quote]

Global Warming: Approaching Point of No Return ( http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=439276&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 )

[quote] Global warming is approaching the point of no return, after which widespread drought, crop failure and rising sea levels will be irreversible, an international climate change task force warned Monday. It called on the Group of 8 leading industrial nations to cut carbon emissions, double their research spending on technology and work with India and China to build on the Kyoto Protocol for cuttings emissions of carbon dioxide and other "greenhouse gases" blamed for global warming.

The independent report was made by the Institute for Public Policy Research in Britain, the Center for American Progress in the United States and the Australia Institute.

"An ecological time bomb is ticking away," said Stephen Byers, who was co-chairman of the task force with U.S. Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine. "World leaders need to recognize that climate change is the single most important long-term issue that the planet faces." [/quote]

I had to read that report (plus I’d heard that it was only 40 pages long, i.e., just over 1.3% as long as that, uh, UN report . . . the one, which . . .I . . . didn’t . . . read.) How could I not read a report dealing with the “the single most important long-term issue that the planet faces?” How could I pass up an “independent” report put out by a Taskforce (Homer Simpson voice: Mmmm, Taskforce . . . ) jointly “chaired” by a loopy British Labourite and an equally loopy American REPUBLICAN? Had to have it. And only 40 pages!

I found it at the website of the non-partisan [Must keep straight face, must keep straight face . . . ] Australia Institute which co-sponsored the thing – and probably wrote much of it ( http://www.tai.org.au/Publications_Files/Papers&Sub_Files/Meeting%20the%20Climate%20Challenge%20FV.pdf ). It’s a gold mine of loopiness! A treasure trove of vapidity and stupidity hard to equal in just 40 pages. [Note: Once you discount the several pages of puffery about the authors and the sponsors; the acknowledgments and the thank yous; and the footnotes and the introductions, the report is perhaps 28-30 pages long in big type and with lots of white space. Great!]

Check out the recommendations in the intro. Aren’t they original?

[quote] 1. A long-term objective be established to prevent global average temperature from rising more than 2?C (3.6?F) above the pre-industrial level, to limit the extent and magnitude of climate-change impacts.
2. A global framework be adopted that builds on the UNFCCC and the Kyoto Protocol, and enables all countries to be part of concerted action on climate change at the global level in the post-2012 period, on the basis of equity and common but differentiated responsibilities.
3. G8 governments establish national renewable portfolio standards to generate at least 25% of electricity from renewable energy sources by 2025, with higher targets needed for some G8 governments.
4. G8 governments increase their spending on research, development, and demonstration of advanced technologies for energy-efficient and low- and zero-carbon energy supply by two-fold or more by 2010, at the same time as adopting near-term strategies for the large-scale deployment of existing low- and no-carbon technologies.
5. The G8 and other major economies, including from the developing world, form a G8+ Climate Group, to pursue technology agreements and related initiatives that will lead to large emissions reductions.
6. The G8+ Climate Group agree to shift their agricultural subsidies from food crops to biofuels, especially those derived from cellulosic materials, while implementing appropriate safeguards to ensure sustainable farming methods are encouraged, culturally and ecologically sensitive land preserved, and biodiversity protected.
7. All developed countries introduce national mandatory cap-and-trade systems for carbon emissions, and construct them to allow for their future integration into a single global market.
8. Governments remove barriers to and increase investment in renewable energy and energy efficient technologies and practices through such measures as the phase-out of fossil fuel subsidies and requiring Export Credit Agencies and Multilateral Development Banks to adopt minimum efficiency or carbon intensity standards for projects they support.
9. Developed countries honour existing commitments to provide greater financial and technical assistance to help vulnerable countries adapt to climate change, including the commitments made at the seventh conference of the parties to the UNFCCC in 2001, and pursue the establishment of an international compensation fund to support disaster mitigation and preparedness.
10. Governments committed to action on climate change raise public awareness of the problem and build public support for climate policies by pledging to provide substantial long-term investment in effective climate communication activities. [/quote]

Are these the sort of actions you would take if the world were going to reach the POINT OF NO RETURN in ten years? According to the distinguished British “co-chair,” after ten years IT’S ALL OVER!!! Yet the report has suggestions for actions to take by 2025 – along with all the usual leftist bromides about more money for this or that, form a group to discuss, raise public awareness, blah, blah, blah.

More nuggets come fast and furious. Page 1 tells us,

[quote] The international consensus of scientific opinion, led by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, is agreed that global temperature is increasing and that the main cause is the accumulation of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere as a result of human activities. Scientific opinion is also agreed that the threat posed will become more severe over coming decades. [/quote]

It’s the “consensus of scientific opinion,” except for all those scientists who don’t agree, but never mind.

Page 1 charges on with more. Now here, I must warn you: the math is VERY precise and VERY complex. I am not sure that just ordinary folks will be able to follow the complex calculations laid out below. Try to keep up,

[quote] The cost of failing to mobilise in the face of this threat is likely to be extremely high. The economic costs alone will be very large: as extreme weather events such as droughts and floods become more destructive and frequent; communities, cities, and island nations are damaged or inundated as sea level rises; and agricultural output is disrupted. The social and human costs are likely to be even greater, encompassing mass loss of life, the spread or exacerbation of diseases, dislocation of populations, geopolitical instability, and a pronounced decrease in the quality of life. Impacts on ecosystems and biodiversity are also likely to be devastating.

Preventing dangerous climate change, therefore, must be seen as a precondition for prosperity and a public good, like national security and public health. By contrast, the cost of taking smart, effective action to meet the challenge of climate change should be entirely manageable. Such action need not undermine standards of living. [/quote]

Hope that you could follow the math. Notice the great precision, the exactitude, the complex calculations? And there’s more! Just in case you had the impression from page 1 that we should only oppose “dangerous climate change,” page 3 will set you right,

[quote] While no amount of climate change is safe and many communities, such as those in Arctic regions and low-lying island states, are already experiencing adverse impacts, scientific evidence suggests that there is a threshold of temperature increase above which the extent and magnitude of the impacts of climate change increase sharply. No one can say with certainty what that threshold is, but it is important that we make an educated judgment at this time based on the best available science. [/quote]

NO CLIMATE CHANGE AT ALL! The world’s climate has NEVER EVER changed – until evil man showed up and started doing stuff. And while “scientific evidence suggests a threshold of temperature” we have no friggin idea what it is, but we’re not going to be deterred from doing something just because we don’t know what we’re doing!

Now the part that has gotten the most media attention,

[quote] On the basis of an extensive review of the relevant scientific literature, we propose a long-term objective of preventing average global surface temperature from rising by more than 2?C (3.6?F) above its pre-industrial level (taken as the level in 1750, when carbon dioxide (CO2) concentrations first began to rise appreciably as a result of human activities). (footnote#10) [/quote]

Interesting. Let’s go see what footnote number 10 says. You’ll find it on page 15,

[quote]Other influences on climate were much more important than the rising greenhouse gas concentrations for at least the next hundred years, and the global average surface temperature in 1850 was probably a bit cooler than in 1750. But thermometer measurements ? which first became widespread enough to directly determine the global average temperature only around 1860?show that between then and 2004 the temperature has risen by about 0.8?C or 1.4?F, and is expected to rise further still due to climatic inertia. [/quote]

There appears to be no scientific rhyme or reason for picking 1750 as the base year – political, yes, scientific, no. Apparently, according to the report, nobody knows what the temperature was in 1750, but whatever it was, after 100 years of “human activity,” by 1850 the world was COOLER. Why? “Other influences” is the cryptic answer. So are those “other influences” now gone? What were they and what happened to them? If they’re not gone, wouldn’t they act to cool the earth again rather than let it warm up?

Just as I was getting warmed up to continue my assault on the report (sigh), I ran across this from Tim Worstall,

[quote] Allow me to translate <...> We have decided to take an arbitrary number, 2?C, set the baseline at the bottom of the Little Ice Age, immediately after the Maunder Minimum, mix in every scare story we can think of to scare the fecal matter out of you rubes and if you don't listen carefully to us important people we'll hold our breaths until we turn blue. (We might also note that no one, no one at all, thinks that human influence on the climate started in 1750 AD. Try 8,000 BC with the invention of agriculture.) <...>

Allow me just to recapitulate this argument. A modest number of the international great and the good get together to bemoan the way the world is running to rack and ruin, identifying the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (and not coincidentally, the beginning of capitalism) as when our forefathers began to cause our problems, come up with a series of recommendations on how to reduce carbon emissions, lots of international action, international aid, international spending, international regulation, in short, lots for the international great and good to do, and in the process they take no position on nuclear energy? None at all? Not even a "Tsk, tsk, that will allow capitalism to survive?"

Sheesh. Who cares what they think? [/quote]

Darn. He ruined that for me. He demolished the whole thing.

But I have two recommendations to the EU as they fight Global Warming. The first is something they should immediately stop doing ( Airbus success will help drive global warming, says expert ),

[quote]If the new Airbus A380 is the commercial success its European makers hope, the big loser -- apart from Boeing -- will be the environment, a French expert
says <...> But French expert Jean-Marc Jancovici <...> author of numerous books on climate change and who runs a well-regarded website(manicore.com) on global warming phenomenon, says that if Airbus' business plan is right, "the number of air passengers will triple in the next 20 years. " Even if planes get bigger, there will still be a lot more of them in the skies in order to meet demand and this will cancel out the benefits in improved fuel efficiency, he told AFP. <...>

In addition, because aircraft emit their pollution at altitude rather than at ground level, the effect as an amplifier of global warming can be five times worse than that of a truck. Compounding the problem is that the aviation business is so far immune from global-warming regulations demanding higher fuel efficiency or lower pollution, and kerosene, a highly polluting fuel, is untaxed. [/quote]

Stop building that Airbus – or, more EUish, tax it to death.

The second recommendation is for the EU to keep doing what it’s doing now( EU Referendum: Cut red tape or suffer decline ). From the lads at EU Referendum comes this observation,

[quote] Latest of the long line of critics, the government?s own "red-tape czar" is calling on the EU to improve its business regulation or face long-term economic decline, according to The Times today. <...> Asked what would happen if red tape continued to grow, Mr Arculus said: "I think the consequences for Europe are extremely serious." Europe?s economy could decline to half the size of the US over the next 20 years if the tide of regulation was not stemmed, he said.That, of course, it the way it is going to be ? if the EU lasts that long. Regulation is not primarily a matter of procedures but of attitude and culture. The EU commission regulates in the way it does because that is the only way it knows. It is incapable of doing it any other way. [/quote]

What better way could the EU show its commitment to fighting Global Warming than by letting its economy stagnant and decline? Once the EU matches, oh say, Ghana’s economic performance, then it will prove beyond all doubt how genuinely committed it is to dealing with “single most important long-term issue that the planet faces.” Keep at it EU!

[quote]vroom wrote:
Stop thinking “I am either with you or against you”… and it will make a lot more freaking sense.[/quote]

Dude, lighten up. Are you sure you aren’t projecting something onto me that you yourself are engaging in? Projection is a documented psychological phenomenon, you know. I am not “against” you. I disagree with you on this issue. I believe the global warming “problem” is far more politically motivated than scientifically. You, however, seem to be closed-minded (if you’ll pardon the vroom-ism) about the possibility. What I mean by you coming down on the sky is falling side is your expressed support for Kyoto. How do we know THAT won’t be one of man’s infamous screw-ups? I, for one, urge caution before we go merrily dismantling any semblance of national and economic sovereignty we as nations have left and turning it all over to the aforementioned gaggle of Marxists and third-world dictators. And it’s not that you don’t make sense. I just think you sometimes support your conclusions with squishy, indistinct logic and hyperbole, which are hard to counter, thereby positioning you as the wise and thoughtful one. For some reason I also kind of enjoy getting under your skin, and apparently I have again succeeded.

You are welcome to your beliefs. Do you have anything other than conjecture to support this?

I find it hard to believe that countries around the world are going to spend billions of dollars, when the US apparently is going to ignore the whole thing, just for political gains. It seems like a stretch really.

There are respected scientists on both sides of the issue. Who are we to really know. Most of us just point to the scientists that agree with our point of view and claim we are correct.

Anyway, if you stop assuming I’m representing or agreeing with a particular side, my posts might make more sense.

As for getting under my skin, you’ll have to work a lot harder than that… try following me around for weeks on end, calling me names, mischaracterizing my opinions and misquoting me! That, I’ll admit, had at least the potential to get on my nerves. :wink:

If you ever needed more proof of the short-sighted right wing mindset, here it is all laid to bear in this thread.

The same people who think global warming is no big deal are mostly the same people who think Bush fulfilled his service in the guard. The same people who believed we would be showered with flowers and the war in Iraq would only last six months MAX. The same people who STILL believe Saddam was a imminent threat and had something to do with 9/11. The same people who think all is well in Iraq and the rest of World should be grateful of our “triumph”. The same people who will jump for joy when Allawi wins the election in Iraq because that will prove once and for all it was “all worth it.” The same people who think the world is safer from terrorism now that Saddam is gone. The same people who consider anyone who points this out to them the enemy.

Finally, the same people who have been taken in by every SINGLE SOLITARY LIE this neo-con administration has handed out IN SPITE OF SOLID IRREFUTABLE PROOF, not only in FACTS ON THE GROUND (incl - Iraq, Nat. debt, job market, declining US Dollar) but straight from the mouths of everyone in this administration by their OWN CONTRADICTORY WORDS for cryin’ out loud…all right there for you to SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES and HEAR WITH YOUR OWN EARS.

Before the election the Dems say, the war is costing $200 billion…BULLSHIT! FOUL! you say, it’s only $120 billion… after the election - we need $80 billion more to bring the total now closer to $300 BILLION. Goddamn liberals!

So what do you do? Call anyone who says otherwise beforehand, a “liberal idiot”… and when that something turns out exactly like the “liberal idiots” predicted, suddenly the “liberal idiots” don’t know all the facts and you claim you were right anyway.

“Mr Rumsfeld, the troops in Iraq have to weld scrap metal onto their HumVees for protection. What will be done about it?” But the Gung-Ho, troop supporting, right-wing patriots - do they say, “Good question, Rummy.” NOOO, they say, “The “liberal media” set him up. Damn that liberal media!”

So to talk about the original point of this post, “Global Warming”, it is neccessary to point out that most of the naysayers are siding with opinions bought and paid for by the same corporations who make up most of the enviromental laws and stand to benefit greatly by making global warming a non-issue.

As long as there is still a single drop of oil left in the ground to be squeezed out and sold, there will be NO serious progress toward a viable alternative energy source in our lifetime. From this point on the cost of oil will only accelerate exponentially, yet somehow where supposed to believe that if global warming was a critical issue they would certainly get on it. OF COURSE this is only a scare tactic used by the “bleeding heart liberals”.

For anyone to argue AGAINST global warming is fairly asinine and nonsensical. So what if it turns out ten years from now that global warming isn’t quite as bad as they thought it would be, but we took it seriously at the time and had taken some measures to avert it… son-of-a-bitch! Now the air is cleaner for nothing.

I say we ignore it and see where were at in 10 years… damn, we were wrong about that too.

Shell to make history with $18bn profit
Sunday January 30, 2005
The Observer

Oil giant Royal Dutch/Shell will this week unveil the largest profit in UK corporate history. Income after tax will climb to around $17.5 billion, and is likely to exceed the takings of its arch-rival BP, which reports the following week.

ChevronTexaco Profit Nearly Doubles
By REUTERS
Published: January 28, 2005

NEW YORK (Reuters) - ChevronTexaco Corp. (CVX.N), the No. 2 U.S. oil company, on Friday said quarterly profit nearly doubled, driven by record crude oil prices and soaring refining margins.

The results were well above Wall Street forecasts and capped a record year marked by the highest annual profit in its history, due in large part to the jump in energy prices.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/business/business-energy-chevrontexaco-earns.html?oref=login&oref=login

Of course you can also see how the terrorists have been cutting into their bottom lines by interupting the flow of oil - hence the constant rise in oil prices to compensate for the loss of profits…

JTF: None of what you said provides any evidence that CO2 causes global warming. I’m not going to sacrifice 20% of US GDP to meet some arbitrary goal for no scientific reason. It has been estimated that massive (2-3+) degree global warming will cost the US 1% of its GDP. We don’t know if that’s going to happen, and we don’t know if it’s preventable (since CO2 may or may not have anything to do with it). Dispute this with any studies you like.

It is far more likely that global warming is a front and a gatherer of political support for nations’ energy policies. Europe already has reduced their emissions by necessity, because they have no cheap source of oil, so a treaty like kyoto will do close to nothing to them. The US on the other hand, and China/India if they chose to join, would be crippled. This economic leveling of the playing field seems to be at least part of the equation in global warming, if not all of it. P.S. Trading emissions credits with poor nations would result in almost no actual reduction of pollution, but rather a continuous flow of money from the US to the third world.

I understand the need for government intervention to internalize pollution’s costs to society, but this should only be done when there is an estimate of the costs (all types of costs) of said pollution. Why the hell would we cripple our economy to the tune of hundreds of billions a year to fix a problem that would cost under ten billion in the worst case scenario?

Factory A pollutes X amount, and production is determined by market supply and demand. Pollution is not an internal variable, but rather an exernality never considered by suppliers or consumers. Government or some agency determines that factory A’s production costs Y to society (increased cancer, unpleasant smog, decreases in frog populations, etc); this is a REASONABLE ESTIMATE OF THIS. To internalize this cost, a tax of amount Z is imposed on factory A, necessarily driving the price of their product up and reducing demand and the total amount produced. Theoretically this would be an equillibrium between demand and product cost + social cost, although as you might imagine this is never achieved exactly because estimates of social costs are always used.

Now… just HOW could you propose doing this for CO2 emissions world-wide if you have only the vaguest of data, and the most inaccurate of models, to go on? Would you like to lose your job because Kyoto sent this and other countries into a depression, because someone’s models weren’t accurate and because it made a few people feel good about themselves to reduce pollution? I’m not a “right-wing hack” or whatever you specifically said, I just want you to explore the DAMAGE this WILL cause to every one of us, and consider: Is there really enough evidence to implement this policy?

Again, I am not saying pollution isn’t a problem, or global warming might not be a problem, but at what cost do we fix them? What risks do we take to reduce global warming when we still don’t know that we have anything to do with it?

You say we are all blind for believing oil company rhetoric; true, they enjoy this point of view, as it turns a profit, just as they enjoy environmental obstructionism. But why has everybody accepted CO2 induced warming as undisputable proof when there IS NO PROOF? Please, find a study or provide a model that has accurately predicted global warming and correlated it with CO2 emissions. There are none. This is not fact (YET).

Did any of you guys read State of Fear by Michael Crichton? I’m convinced global warming is not a serious threat.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1107158781262.right.gif

I am sorry but why is a person calling himself Just the Facts when no facts are used whatsoever? For example it was the liberals who repeatedly brought up the term imminent threat, when Bush specifically stated that we needed to do something BEFORE he became an imminent threat.

Yet suddenly it was the conservatives, or Republicans, or those Damn Neo-Cons (wich I am beginning to think is a new term for Illuminati) who are suddenly being blamed for making the statement.

I will support action to prevent human causes global warming if it can be proven that it is not only happening at a real rate, but that it also is a proven danger. (Did you know some scientists think it may actually be more beneficial for us then negative?)

To blame Bush for a company making a profit is also ridiculous. You do know these companies made a profit before the war didn?t you? Guess what, they have been making a profit for a long time. That is what businesses do, try to make a profit.

Yet to make the leap of illogic that there must be some sort of a deal going on to go to war just to get a certain stock to improve their dividend a couple percentage points is not only ridiculous, but outright conspiracy theory.

To make such accusations is to say you have the proof to back up such statements. Where is your proof? Not conjecture, or an assortment of flimsy circumstantial evidence, but actual proof, otherwise you are doing nothing but spouting unjustified libel.

Just The Facts- You could have saved yourself the time and for you what must have been truly herculean mental effort and just told us that you are not only an idiot, but an ignoramous as well.

It’s obvious that money for oil is the only concept that your three or four working neurons can wrap themselves around, but the world is a bit more complicated than that. It’s comical that the idiot left, that would encompass you if you can’t figure it out, accuses the anybody they disagree with of their own behavior. Go to Bjorn Lomborg’s Website, and click on the Critique, and then scroll down to the money shot, where the pro-warming scientist says, that yes, indeed, we whore after the attention by misrepresenting the case. And why the search for the pub? Because that’s where the fame and the money are.

No, enviromental groups have absolutely no say in legislation. No sir. Their lawyers don’t ever, ever, ever sue for any reason. They don’t lobby. They don’t have extensive fundrasing efforts, designed to lighten the pockets of idiots like you by lying about the state of the enviroment. And of course dopes like you don’t buy it.

“As long as the cost…Blah, blah, blah… the cost of oil will only accelerate exponentially.” You didn’t work in the Ministery of Planning back in the Soviet Union, did you? Because its just that kind of expert thinking that ran them into the ground. You don’t have to be Milton Friedman that if the price of something rises that much, people use less of it, much less. They find alternatives. Despite all of the planning and wishful thinking and conspiracy theories, oil is for the moment the best cost solution to most of our tranportation needs. Of course if more intellectual titans like you worked on the problem and spent less time ranting on the Internet, it would surely have been solved by now.

BTW, Rachel, as in Carson of Silent Spring fame, particulate matter, you know, dirty air, pollution some call it, is theoretically supposed to deflect solar energy, mitigating the alleged effect of CO2 buildup, something plants need to “breathe.”
Apparently you have a problem with trees breathing easier- YOU must be in bed with the oil companies, you fascist you.

Einstein, without China and India in the picture any 10 year timeframe for any CO2 mitigation is an absolute joke. Most likely having failed both history and geography multiple times you don’t know that they are the two most populous countries on the planet and industrializing fast.

Your last bit about record profits and terrorism cutting into profits and raising prices and… I’ve got to hand it to you- you must have thought very, very long and very, very hard to conjure that up. It is simply impossible to train a chimp to be that stupid, not that libs just like you wouldn’t waste vast sums of other people’s money trying. Oil companies are making record profits because terrorists are cutting into their profits and they are raising prices? Really? I wonder what the Saudi Minister of Oil has to say about that?

Why are refining margins soaring? I don’t know, when was the last new one built? Why aren’t they building any new ones to increase capacity and lower supply bottlenecks and retail prices? To be sure, liberals driving around four-wheel drive cars, a feature they hardly ever use, with empty roofracks they are too lazy to remove that increase drag and reduce mileage, are part of the problem. Maybe it’s because our society has heeded the advice on their bumper stickers and halted all development of refining capacity. But you knew that, didn’t you?

Normally, I would just state my case, thrown in a few jabs and leave it at that. But when an obvious idiot like you has the gall to call people who have looked the shit up and aren’t convinced a bunch of dolts with their heads in the sand, well, you deserve to get in back in a manner which you don’t have the mental capacity to respond to, much less the evidence.

Come back for more any time.

Great article from the Daily Telegraph (UK) this past Sunday:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;sessionid=B3SZZSQDGWC3BQFIQMGCM5WAVCBQUJVC?xml=/opinion/2005/01/30/do3001.xml

The danger is hot air, not global warming
By Ross Clark
(Filed: 30/01/2005)

To lift Africa from the ravages of poverty and Aids would to most world leaders seem a big enough topic to fill a single speech. But not Tony Blair. Speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos last week, the Prime Minister moved swiftly between the subjects of Africa and climate change. “On both,” he said, “there are differences which need to be reconciled. If they could be reconciled or at least moved forward, it would make a huge difference to the prospects of international unity, as well as to people’s lives and our future survival.”

The implication was that anyone who supports development in Africa ought also to support measures to combat global warming. It is a link unlikely to be shared by African nations themselves, who made it clear at the 2002 Earth Summit in Johannesburg that they are more concerned with trade and economic growth than with climate change.

The reality is that measures to cut carbon emissions, widely blamed for global warming, have an enormous cost in terms of global development. You can either make a priority of combating global warming or you can make a priority of international development, but not both. As the economist Bjorn Lomborg has pointed out in these pages before, the effect of enacting the Kyoto treaty ? which demands that the world reduce its carbon emissions to 1990 levels and keep them there ? would be to limit global economic growth to the tune of $150 billion a year: twice the sum that would be required to provide the developing world with the education, healthcare and clean water that they so desperately need. Yet restrictions on carbon emissions will have a disproportionate impact on the developing world, whose less sophisticated industries rely more heavily on burning fossil fuels ? limiting their ability to provide themselves with education, healthcare and clean water.

Fortunately for Africa, there is scant sign that Tony Blair is serious about taking his mission on climate change much beyond the platitudes of the international conference chamber. If Mr Blair really believed that cutting carbon emissions was crucial to the world’s future survival, he would hardly have abandoned, in the face of the petrol tax protests in 2000, the fuel duty “escalator” introduced by the last Conservative government with the very purpose of cutting fossil fuel use. What he would have done is to have embarked on a programme of building nuclear power stations: the one alternative to coal and gas that produces sufficient energy without carbon emissions.

The measures he has taken to cut atmospheric CO2 have been token ones: forcing homeowners to fit double glazing when replacing windows and subsidising wind farms. In spite of their ugly dominance of the landscape, the 1,200 heavily subsidised wind turbines currently in operation are generating only 1 per cent of Britain’s electricity.

There is, however, a political purpose behind Tony Blair’s mission on global warming. It would considerably enhance his reputation as a world leader, especially among those whom he offended by going to war in Iraq, were he to go down as the man who succeeded in persuading George W Bush to make a gesture on global warming. When, early in his first term, President Bush withdrew from the Kyoto protocol, it was condemned as the act of an isolationist. More recently, he is said to have softened on the issue. One more push from Blair, goes the theory, and the President might just be prepared to back the Climate Stewardship Act: a measure introduced by the former senator John McCain that would commit the US to stabilising its carbon emissions at 2000 levels, but which has failed to become law. If Tony Blair does succeed in extracting a gesture from the US, it might silence those who claim he is Bush’s poodle, but it would do little to alter mankind’s chances of survival.

The US President is not quite such an isolationist on global warming as is commonly supposed. While the world’s leaders and pop stars were in Davos, a group of dissenting climatologists and oceanographers met at the Royal Institution in London to question the scientific orthodoxy on global warming. They were supported by the former editor of Nature, John Maddox who, though himself hardly a noted champion of scientific dissent ? he declined to publish studies questioning the link between HIV and Aids ? has nevertheless been moved to describe the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) as “monolithic and complacent”.

It is not hard to see what Maddox means. While all work questioning the extent of global warming tends to be dismissed by the global warming lobby as propaganda on behalf of the oil industry, wild theoretical predictions of global warming are allowed to stand without challenge. Last week, Nature carried the results of a project called climateprediction.net, which has harnessed the spare capacity of 90,000 personal computers to run and re-run simulations of climate change. An accompanying news story in Nature was headlined “Biggest-ever climate simulation warns temperatures may rise by 11 degrees C”. Inevitably, the story was widely reported in these alarmist terms. Yet when read in detail, the Nature paper told a different story.

The climate change simulations were run 2,000 times, each time with slightly different assumptions. Only the very highest estimate predicted a rise of 11C. Most simulations suggested a rise of around 3.4C, while several actually predicted a fall in global temperatures (though these were discarded by the researchers on “technical grounds”). Moreover, the simulations proposed no timescale for the predicted changes.

One might reasonably conclude, given the wide variation in results, that the computer simulations so far devised to predict global warming are of little use and should not be relied upon in order to make decisions affecting the global economy. All the research team would say is “there’s lots and lots more to do”.

When global warming first emerged as an issue in the late 1980s, it was grimly forecast that the low-lying Maldives would soon be consumed by a rising Indian Ocean. Yet a Stockholm University project has discovered that sea levels there have actually fallen over the last 20 years.

If a computer simulation proves so inaccurate over 20 years, what chance is there that it will prove accurate over 100 years? The truth is that nobody yet has any idea whether the small increases in global temperatures so far measured are the start of a trend caused by fossil fuel burning, or whether they are part of natural, cyclical changes in the Earth’s climate. What is certain is that measures to combat global warming will harm economic growth, and in doing so will put the world’s poor at particular risk.

Two great essays from the Hoover Institute:

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/epp/104/104a.html

In Sickness and in Health: The Kyoto Protocol versus Global Warming
Thomas Gale Moore

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Advocates of curbing greenhouse emissions and ratifying the Kyoto Protocol contend that global warming will bring disease and death to Americans. Is this is likely? Should Americans fear a health crisis? Would a warmer world bring an epidemic of tropical diseases? Would Americans face increased heatstroke and summers bringing a surge of deaths? Would global warming bring more frequent and more violent hurricanes wreaking havoc on our citizens? Is it true that warmer climates are less healthy than colder ones? Would cutting greenhouse gas emissions, as the Kyoto Protocol requires, improve the health of Americans? This essay will show that the answer to all those questions is a resounding no.

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/epp/102/102a.html

Climate Policy?From Rio to Kyoto: A Political Issue for 2000?and Beyond
S. Fred Singer

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Within the United States, global warming and related policy issues are becoming increasingly contentious, surfacing in the presidential contests of the year 2000 and beyond. They enter into controversies involving international trade agreements, questions of national sovereignty versus global governance, and ideological debates about the nature of future economic growth and development. On a more detailed level, determined efforts are under way by environmental groups and their sympathizers in foundations and in the federal government to restrict and phase out the use of fossil fuels (and even nuclear reactors) as sources of energy. Such measures would reduce greenhouse-gas emissions into the atmosphere but also effectively deindustrialize the United States.

International climate policy is based on the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, which calls on industrialized nations to carry out, within one decade, drastic cuts in the emission of greenhouse gases (GHG) that stem mainly from the burning of fossil fuels. The Protocol is ultimately based on the 1996 Scientific Assessment Report issued by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a U.N. advisory body. The IPCC’s main conclusion, featured in its Summary for Policymakers (SPM), states that “the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate.” This widely quoted, innocuous-sounding but ambiguous phrase has been misinterpreted by many to mean that climate disasters will befall the world unless strong action is taken immediately to cut GHG emissions.

This essay documents the inadequate science underlying the IPCC conclusions, traces how these conclusions were misinterpreted in 1996, and how this led to the Kyoto Protocol. I also discuss some fatal shortcomings of the Protocol and the political and ideological forces driving it.

The IPCC conclusion is in many ways a truism. There certainly must be a human influence on some features of the climate, locally if not globally. The important question?the focus of scientific debate?is whether the available evidence supports the results of calculations from the current General Circulation Models (GCMs). Unless validated by the climate record, the predictions of future warming based on theoretical models cannot be relied on. As demonstrated in this essay, GCMs are not able to account for observed climate variations, which are presumably of natural origin, for the following reaons:

  To begin with, GCMs assume that the atmospheric level of carbon dioxide will continue its increase (at a greater rate than is actually observed) and will more than double in the next century. Many experts doubt that this will ever happen, as the world proceeds on a path of ever-greater energy efficiency and as low-cost fossil fuels become depleted and therefore more costly.
  Next, one must assume that global temperatures will really rise to the extent calculated by the conventional theoretical climate models used by the IPCC. Observations suggest that any warming will be minute, will occur mainly at night and in winter, and will therefore be inconsequential. The failure of the present climate models is likely due to their inadequate treatment of atmospheric processes, such as cloud formation and the distribution of water vapor (which is the most important greenhouse gas in the atmosphere).
  The putative warming has been labeled as greater and more rapid than anything experienced in human history. But a variety of historical data contradicts this apocalyptic statement. As recently as 1,000 years ago, during the "Medieval climate optimum," Vikings were able to settle Greenland. Even higher temperatures were experienced about 7,000 years ago during the much-studied "climate optimum."

The IPCC’s Summary for Policymakers tries hard to minimize the inadequacy of the GCMs to model atmospheric processes and reproduce the observed climate variations. For example, the SPM does not reveal the fact that weather satellite data, the only truly global data we have, do not show the expected atmospheric warming trend; the existence of satellites is not even mentioned.

The scientific evidence for a presumed “human influence” is spurious and based mostly on the selective use of data and choice of particular time periods. Phrases that stress the uncertainties of identifying human influences were edited out of the approved final draft before the IPCC report was printed in May 1996.

A further misrepresentation occurred in July 1996 when politicians, intent on establishing a Kyoto-like regime of mandatory emission controls, took the deceptively worded phrase about “discernible human influence” and linked it to a catastrophic future warming?something the IPCC report itself specifically denies. The IPCC presents no evidence to support a substantial warming such as calculated from theoretical climate models.

The essay also demonstrates that global warming (GW), if it were to take place, is generally beneficial for the following reasons:

  One of the most feared consequences of global warming is a rise in sea level that could flood low-lying areas and damage the economy of coastal nations. But actual evidence suggests just the opposite: a modest warming will reduce somewhat the steady rise of sea level, which has been ongoing since the end of the last Ice Age?and will continue no matter what we do as long as the millennia-old melting of Antarctic ice continues.
  A detailed reevaluation of the impact of climate warming on the national economy was published in 1999 by a prestigious group of specialists, led by a Yale University resource economist. They conclude that agriculture and timber resources would benefit greatly from a warmer climate and higher levels of carbon dioxide and would not be negatively affected as had previously been thought. Contrary to the general wisdom expressed in the IPCC report, higher CO2 levels and temperatures would increase the GNP of the United States and put more money in the pockets of the average family.

But even if the consequences of a GW were harmful, there is little that can be done to stop it. “No-regrets” policies of conservation and adaptation to change are the most effective measures available. Despite its huge cost to the economy and consumers, the emission cuts envisioned by the Kyoto Protocol would be quite ineffective. Even if it were observed punctiliously, its impact on future temperatures would be negligible, only 0.05?C by 2050 according to IPCC data. It is generally agreed that achieving a stable level of GHGs would require much more drastic emission reductions, including also by developing nations. To stabilize at the 1990 level, the IPCC report calls for a 60 to 80 percent reduction?about twelve Kyotos on a worldwide basis!

Finally, the essay attempts to trace the various motivations that led to the Kyoto Protocol. It concludes that U.S. domestic politics rather than science or economics will decide the fate of the Protocol; in particular, the presidential elections of 2000 will determine whether the United States ultimately ratifies the Protocol, which would be essential for its global enactment. Conversely, informed debate about the Protocol can influence the outcome of the elections.

if you are so afraid of global warming dedicate your life to planting trees and plants as many as possible. that will help aid in the break down of c02
plus we will not live long enough to see global warming so let the next couple of generations worry about it and live your life.

RepubCarrier
As far as CO2 being the major cause I think there is plenty of evidence to substantiate. One thing’s for sure, it’s ending up in the oceans - good for GW - bad for the oceans.

Oceans Found to Absorb Half of All Man-Made Carbon Dioxide
National Geographic News
July 15, 2004

Around half of all carbon dioxide produced by humans since the industrial revolution has dissolved into the world’s oceans “with adverse effects for marine life” according to two new studies.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0715_040715_oceancarbon.html

I understand the tie-in to the GDP but the numbers are deceiving. The current Bush plan is a clever play on numbers in that the “tons of pollution” per “million dollars in GDP” is reduced, but the GDP between 2002 and 2012 is expected to INCREASE around 38%. In other words pollution will actually RISE by 14% or so, on top of the 15% increase since 1990.

On top of that, if extreme weather patterns continue, the dollar damage will likely exceed the GDP. Already insurance companies will not insure in certain areas anymore, which puts the burden back on the government.

My stance is slightly neutral but my feeling is both sides have valid points but only one of the choices will not have long term consequences. What I see are thousands of scientists and researchers collectively saying global warming is REAL and it’s coming faster than we expected, and their message is getting circumvented and distorted by a political and industrial agenda.

If some people want to call that a conspiracy theory so be it - but I look at examples of reports by IPCC like Boston mentions and I can’t help being suspicious.

ExxonMobil hits back in memo row
5 April, 2002 - BBC

The US oil giant ExxonMobil has hit back at environmentalists in a row over a memo asking the White House to unseat the UN’s chief climate change expert.

Climate scientist ousted
19 April, 2002 - BBC

One of the most outspoken scientists on the issue of global warming has been ousted from his job.

Dr Robert Watson was voted out of the chair of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) on Friday and will be replaced by one of the current vice-chairs, Dr Rajendra Pachauri.

Dr Watson’s removal will spark a huge political row - environmentalists accuse the US Government of orchestrating a campaign to have the scientist sidelined.

Leading Scientists Say Bush Administration Suppresses, Distorts Facts
02/23/2004

More than 60 distinguished scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates, blasted the Bush administration last week for suppressing and distorting scientific information that does not support its predetermined agenda.

“When scientific knowledge has been found to be in conflict with its political goals, the administration has often manipulated the process through which science enters into its decisions,” according to a statement signed by the scientists. “This has been done by placing people who are professionally unqualified or who have clear conflicts of interest in official posts and on scientific advisory committees; by disbanding existing advisory committees; by censoring and suppressing reports by the government’s own scientists; and by simply not seeking independent scientific advice.”

The statement accompanied the release of a comprehensive report by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), which documents numerous cases of the administration putting politics over science. For example:

  • The White House Council on Environmental Quality and the Office of Management and Budget forced EPA to substantially alter findings on global warming for a draft “Report on the Environment.” For instance, EPA deleted a temperature record covering 1,000 years in order to emphasize, “a recent, limited analysis [which] supports the administration’s favored message,” according to an internal EPA memo obtained by UCS.

UCS contends that this manipulation of science is unprecedented, and provides testimonials from political appointees of past Republican and Democratic administrations. In the case of EPA, for example, Russell Train, former EPA administrator under President Nixon, commented, “The agency has had little or no independence. I think that is a very great mistake, and one for which the American people could pay over the long run in compromised health and reduced quality of life.”

Heavily Censored Energy Department Papers Show Industry is the Real Author of Administration’s Energy Task Force Report

WASHINGTON (March 27, 2002) – Despite being heavily censored, the thousands of Department of Energy documents released under court order this week confirm the intimate, secretive relationship between huge, politically connected corporations and the White House energy task force.

“Big energy companies all but held the pencil for the White House task force as government officials wrote a plan calling for billions of dollars in corporate subsidies, and the wholesale elimination of key health and environmental safeguards,” said John H. Adams, NRDC president.

NRDC and many others have been critical of the White House energy task force recommendations, charging the plan does almost nothing to free America from its dependence on foreign oil.

“These documents show how the White House task force turned coal and oil company wish lists directly into national policy while ignoring proven technologies that can help us meet our energy needs cleanly and reliably,” explained Sharon Buccino, an NRDC senior attorney.

When Advocates Become Regulators

President Bush has installed more than 100 top officials who were once lobbyists, attorneys or spokespeople for the industries they oversee.
May 23, 2004 - Denver Post

A March 16 report from the Interior Department’s inspector general, for example, concluded that department’s “byzantine” conflict-of-interest rules were “wholly incapable” of addressing ethical questions involving a former energy lobbyist, J. Steven Griles, as the department’s No. 2 official.

The report called the department’s ethics system “a train wreck waiting to happen.”

Bringing bias to a federal job isn’t new. Presidents of all political persuasions have appointed people who shared their party’s values.

As president, Bill Clinton peppered the federal bureaucracy with Democratic state officials, lawyers and advocates from various environmental or public-interest groups.

Only a handful of registered lobbyists worked for Clinton, however.

Bush’s embrace of lobbyists marks a key difference because it allows “those who are affected by the regulations to determine what the ground rules should be,” said David Cohen, co-director of the Advocacy Institute, which helps teach nonprofits how to lobby in Washington.

While previous Republican presidents hired lobbyists, “the Bush administration has made it rise in geometric proportions,” Cohen said, meaning Bush is “capturing the instruments of government and using them for the ends” that favor Bush’s political supporters.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0523-02.htm

[quote]schrauper wrote:
hspder- chronic respiratory diseases are the result of the Pussification (de-T-manization) of our society. Let kids go out an play in the dirt, where the icky stuff is, which they develop anti-bodies to, and don’t get asthma, or so the theory goes.

[/quote]

I thought hspder had a good point there, but I don’t know about the causes of asthma. I only know that I have it, it sucks, and the rate of occurence has increased large amounts in urban populations (tripled in Harlem). But I at least will know a lot about global warming. I’m taking a course in it right now for chemical engineering. And so far:

It is ultra-complicated. And it’s hard to trust any conclusions based on any given set of data, as it probably doesn’t give a solid picture of the earth. Suffice it to say we are not really sure if the earth is getting warmer or cooler. We do know that CO2 concentration is increasing, though that could be a result of the climate increasing. And whoever brought up the fact that it was 20 degrees warmer in the time of the dinosaurs, consider the fact that it will only take a change of a few degrees to raise sea level, which would decimate coastal regions. And there is an unstable ice sheet in the antartic (ice sheets are connected to the ocean floor). Scientists know it will separate from the ocean floor, but they don’t know when (could be 1000 years or 10). When it does, sea level will rise 20 ft. As this post is long enough, let’s just say a few degrees could cause that.

Hah, I didn’t even notice the 2 other pages of posts. Oh well. Anyway, I forgot the all important point that just because we are not causing global warming, doesn’t mean that it’s not an issue. Furthermore, even if the earth is not getting hotter on average, getting hotter in certain places will have large effects (mostly the poles).

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1107328514195.iaologo.jpg

Hey Mage - if you were going to use a graphic to label me as a conspiracy theorist, why didn’t you just use the “OFFICIAL” government version? Of course this one’s not as funny as your’s - but then again you would never expect a real government logo to be humerous - ironic perhaps. This is the kind of stuff you just can’t make up.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
I am sorry but why is a person calling himself Just the Facts when no facts are used whatsoever? For example it was the liberals who repeatedly brought up the term imminent threat, when Bush specifically stated that we needed to do something BEFORE he became an imminent threat.

Yet suddenly it was the conservatives, or Republicans, or those Damn Neo-Cons (wich I am beginning to think is a new term for Illuminati) who are suddenly being blamed for making the statement.[/quote]

Adj. 1. imminent - close in time; about to occur

“Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.”

  • George W. Bush

“Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use them against our friends, against our allies and against us.”

  • Dick Cheney

“Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraqi regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”

  • George W. Bush

"Every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources, these are not assertions. What we’re giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence. There can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein has biological weapons and the capability to rapidly produce more- many more- and he has the ability to dispense these lethal poisons and diseases in ways that can cause massive death and destruction. Most of the launcher and warheads have been hidden in large groves of palm trees… This is evidence, not conjecture. This is true- this is all well documented."
-Colin Powell

“We won’t be proven wrong.”

  • George W. Bush

It’s ridiculous to hear you demand absolute proof that global warming is really happening when you have even less proof it’s not.

You keep talking about “proof” and “facts” yet aren’t the least bit phased by the Iraqi situation and insinuate pollution might even be good for us.

No shit. The point being RECORD, UNHEARD of profits directly relating to a war started by a government run by former oil executives who couldn’t wait to get their hands on Iraqi oil, who’s election campaign was largely funded by the energy sector. (just like any other business, right?)

“go to war just to get a certain stock to improve their dividend a couple percentage points”
-Mage

The Iraq Oil Bonanza: Estimating Future Profits
Global Policy Forum
January 28, 2004

“In order to understand the magnitude of these profits, it is useful to know that the worldwide profits of the world’s five largest oil companies in 2002 were $35 billion. Our estimate of the “most probable” annual profits in Iraq are $95 billion, three times this sum! Total company profits in Iraq, over time, would be an enormously large sum - ranging from a low of about $600 billion to a high of about $9 trillion.” (chump change apparently)

Just so you know we’re not just talking oil companies but also defense contractors. But here again this is all just coincidence and conspiracy theory - since the point of this war wasn’t to profit, it was to FREE the IRAQI PEOPLE…

The Ties that Bind:
Arms Industry Influence in the
Bush Administration and Beyond

A World Policy Institute Special Report
October 2004

Accompanying this massive growth in defense spending is a large presence of former executives, consultants or shareholders of weapons contractors in key policymaking posts in the Bush administration. During the first George W. Bush administration, at least 32 administration appointees had ties to the arms industry, including 17 appointees with links to major defense contractors, including Secretary of the Navy Gordon England, a former General Dynamics vice president and Secretary of the Air Force James Roche, a former Northrop Grumman executive.

Today, more than any administration is history the Bush administration has relied on the expertise of former arms industry officials in outlining U.S. defense needs. While the role of former energy executives in the Bush administration received considerable scrutiny in connection with the Enron scandal and the operations of Vice President Dick Cheney’s energy task force, little has been said about the administration’s even more extensive ties to the defense industry. As Senator John McCain (R-AZ), chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee best summed it up, “In the Boeing case we have seen compelling evidence that there is an incestuous relationship between the defense industry and defense officials that is not good for America.”

Bush’s Security Policy Written Long Before 9/11
In addition to former defense executives staffing the Bush administration, a tightly knit group of conservative ideologues and right-wing think tanks (which have defense CEOs on their boards) have also been influential in shaping and developing President Bush’s security policy. From the doctrine of preemptive strikes and regime change in Iraq to deploying a Star Wars style missile defense and a new nuclear weapons policy to overall U.S. national security strategy, the fingerprints of groups like the Project for a New American Century, the National Institute for Public Policy and the Center for Security Policy can be seen. In fact, every major element of the Bush administration’s national security strategy was developed in significant part before Bush took office, and before the September 11th terror attacks.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/TiesThatBind.html

If by proof you mean like going after bin Laden for 9/11 and not getting him and then ending up in Iraq (who had nothing to do with 9/11) looking for WMD’s that we never found even though we knew they weren’t there to begin with - and after 2 years we STILL haven’t found bin Laden and in fact, 3 years after 9/11 there hasn’t been ONE SINGLE CONVICTION related to this horrendous terrorist act committed by the vast, organized network know as al Qaeda.

Repeat:
Not ONE SINGLE CONVICTION related to 9/11.

So instead of demanding facts and proof from ME about “global warming” and “the war in Iraq”, why don’t you demand facts and proof from the government. Nobody even seems to notice or give a shit that SOLID PROOF has never been given or shown that connects bin Laden and al Qaeda to 9/11.

Not ONE SINGLE CONVICTION - but the Iraqi people are FREE…after all that’s really what the war was all about, right?

JTF: There is proof that global temperatures are higher on average this century than the last. There is not, however, any proof that CO2 has caused this, and every model that attempted to correlate CO2 with global temperature has failed miserably. Assuming C02 is a significant factor in global warming, you can’t enact policy without a reliable model; that is simply reckless and idiotic. And no it is not better to “do something just to be safe”; it is not a careless, costless sacrifice to pass a treaty such as kyoto, but rather a crippling of economies (the US’s, primarily). I still have not seen any data that shows CO2 has anything to do with global warming, so again, why is this assumed as fact?

There is much more than pseudo-science going on here.

Oh boy, a lot to deal with here.

First thanks for all the quotes without any references.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Hey Mage - if you were going to use a graphic to label me as a conspiracy theorist, why didn’t you just use the “OFFICIAL” government version? Of course this one’s not as funny as your’s - but then again you would never expect a real government logo to be humerous - ironic perhaps. This is the kind of stuff you just can’t make up.[/quote]


[quote]The Mage wrote:
I am sorry but why is a person calling himself Just the Facts when no facts are used whatsoever? For example it was the liberals who repeatedly brought up the term imminent threat, when Bush specifically stated that we needed to do something BEFORE he became an imminent threat.

Yet suddenly it was the conservatives, or Republicans, or those Damn Neo-Cons (wich I am beginning to think is a new term for Illuminati) who are suddenly being blamed for making the statement.[/quote]


[quote]Adj. 1. imminent - close in time; about to occur

“Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.”

  • George W. Bush[/quote]

See, not imminent.[quote]

“Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use them against our friends, against our allies and against us.”

  • Dick Cheney

“Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraqi regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”

  • George W. Bush

"Every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources, these are not assertions. What we’re giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence. There can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein has biological weapons and the capability to rapidly produce more- many more- and he has the ability to dispense these lethal poisons and diseases in ways that can cause massive death and destruction. Most of the launcher and warheads have been hidden in large groves of palm trees… This is evidence, not conjecture. This is true- this is all well documented."
-Colin Powell

“We won’t be proven wrong.”

  • George W. Bush[/quote]

Ah yes. Completely ignoring what I really said. How about this quote which is exactly what I was talking about:

"The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax – enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He’s given no evidence that he has destroyed it.
"The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin – enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn’t accounted for that material. He’s given no evidence that he has destroyed it."

So it was the UN that stated what he had. Gee, I thought the UN was always right. How could the President of the United States have actually believed what the UN said?

To continue:

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."

Wait a second This is Bush saying that we should act before it is imminent. You said that he said it was imminent, but right here, in the state of the Union speech he argues something different.

Oh yeah, the references for these quotes from a transcript of the State of the Union Speech from 2003:



You want me to prove that something is not happening? Guilty until proven innocent is it? Where is your logic? Anyway I never said there was no global warming. Again all I am saying we should not go off half cocked when the evidence is so scant and inconclusive.

I posted a link earlier to an FAQ which you obviously did not read. It had a whole host of references. Here is one quote:

“However, these two increases did not take place together. Much of the observed temperature rise of 0.5?C occurred before 1940, whereas most of the additional carbon dioxide (over 80%) entered the atmosphere after 1940. Increased greenhouse gases cannot explain a temperature rise that occurred before the major increases in these gases existed in the atmosphere.
?Furthermore, from 1940 to 1970, carbon dioxide built up rapidly in the atmosphere, and according to the computer projections of climate, the temperature of the earth should also have risen rapidly. Instead, as the chart shows, the temperature dropped.
?The increase in greenhouse gases cannot explain the rapid rise in temperature prior to 1940, and it cannot explain the drop in temperature from 1940 to 1970. The climate record over the last 100 years provides no support for the idea that human activities, such as burning coal and oil for energy, caused the early 20th century global warming. Natural factors must have caused most of that warming.”

http://www.marshall.org/article.php?id=67#3

So here is some evidence that if there is global warming, we may not be responsible.

Holly crap, can you stay on one subject? And where did I ever say that pollution might be good for us? Oh yeah, you are calling CO2 pollution. If that is true, then by breathing you are polluting. So quit breathing already.

I am all for reducing pollution. I am also all for the INTELLIGENT reduction in excess CO2 production, or methods of increasing the conversion back into oxygen. (Plant a tree man.)



Again you are making a leap of logic. We go to war, and a company (you purport) makes money, therefore they started the war only for profit.

Unless you can come up with some facts, this is once again pure speculation, otherwise known as a conspiracy theory. As I stated below


[quote]Yet to make the leap of illogic that there must be some sort of a deal going on to go to war just to get a certain stock to improve their dividend a couple percentage points is not only ridiculous, but outright conspiracy theory.

“go to war just to get a certain stock to improve their dividend a couple percentage points” [/quote]


[quote]-Mage

The Iraq Oil Bonanza: Estimating Future Profits
Global Policy Forum
January 28, 2004[/quote]

Oh yeah, that is an unbiased organization. Read their opinion of America here:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/empireindex.htm

[quote]“In order to understand the magnitude of these profits, it is useful to know that the worldwide profits of the world’s five largest oil companies in 2002 were $35 billion. Our estimate of the “most probable” annual profits in Iraq are $95 billion, three times this sum! Total company profits in Iraq, over time, would be an enormously large sum - ranging from a low of about $600 billion to a high of about $9 trillion.” (chump change apparently)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2004/0128oilprofit.htm[/quote]

Again just because a company profits from an action by the government does not prove conspiracy. Just that they were in the right place at the right time.

[quote]Just so you know we’re not just talking oil companies but also defense contractors. But here again this is all just coincidence and conspiracy theory - since the point of this war wasn’t to profit, it was to FREE the IRAQI PEOPLE…

The Ties that Bind:
Arms Industry Influence in the
Bush Administration and Beyond

A World Policy Institute Special Report
October 2004[/quote]

Ah, another wonderful organization. Sorry but I don?t believe in their push to allow all immigrants to vote in America. Crazy Idea. We will get people to come for a visit, vote, and go home. What a great idea. I am sorry but this is a biased group regardless of what they say.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/IMV/index.html

[quote]Accompanying this massive growth in defense spending is a large presence of former executives, consultants or shareholders of weapons contractors in key policymaking posts in the Bush administration. During the first George W. Bush administration, at least 32 administration appointees had ties to the arms industry, including 17 appointees with links to major defense contractors, including Secretary of the Navy Gordon England, a former General Dynamics vice president and Secretary of the Air Force James Roche, a former Northrop Grumman executive.

Today, more than any administration is history the Bush administration has relied on the expertise of former arms industry officials in outlining U.S. defense needs. While the role of former energy executives in the Bush administration received considerable scrutiny in connection with the Enron scandal and the operations of Vice President Dick Cheney’s energy task force, little has been said about the administration’s even more extensive ties to the defense industry. As Senator John McCain (R-AZ), chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee best summed it up, “In the Boeing case we have seen compelling evidence that there is an incestuous relationship between the defense industry and defense officials that is not good for America.” [/quote]

The link between Bush and Enron was pursued until it was realized that many of Clinton?s people went to work for Enron, and had a much bigger link. No real connections could be made. Political attack used as fact.

[quote] Bush’s Security Policy Written Long Before 9/11
In addition to former defense executives staffing the Bush administration, a tightly knit group of conservative ideologues and right-wing [/quote] (Unbiased definition?) [quote] think tanks (which have defense CEOs on their boards) have also been influential in shaping and developing President Bush’s security policy. From the doctrine of preemptive strikes and regime change in Iraq to deploying a Star Wars style missile defense and a new nuclear weapons policy to overall U.S. national security strategy, the fingerprints of groups like the Project for a New American Century, the National Institute for Public Policy and the Center for Security Policy can be seen. In fact, every major element of the Bush administration’s national security strategy was developed in significant part before Bush took office, and before the September 11th terror attacks.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/TiesThatBind.html[/quote]

Yeah, so what? You do know that Republicans are big on the military don’t you? This is not news. The events of 9/11 caused Bush to further believe these policies. What is so strange about that? Again you (and other politically biased conspiracy nuts) are looking for the smoking gun that does not exist.



[quote]If by proof you mean like going after bin Laden for 9/11 and not getting him and then ending up in Iraq (who had nothing to do with 9/11) looking for WMD’s that we never found even though we knew they weren’t there to begin with [/quote] (Again total crap without any proof.) [quote]- and after 2 years we STILL haven’t found bin Laden and in fact, 3 years after 9/11 there hasn’t been ONE SINGLE CONVICTION related to this horrendous terrorist act committed by the vast, organized network know as al Qaeda.

Repeat:
Not ONE SINGLE CONVICTION related to 9/11. [/quote]

So you are saying that if it does not involve 911, we should not do it? So you are saying that we should quit donating to the Tsunami relief efforts, and the Aids in Africa?

Just because there is no link between Saddam and 911 does not mean that there was no link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. They did meet, and were given permission to be in Iraq. Also Saddam did support terrorists. We declared war on terrorism, and Saddam was a terrorist. He not only funded terrorists, but do you remember the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and the terrorist that did that was protected by Saddam.

Again you forget that Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, so according to your logic we should have not gone after Adolf.

Uh you mean other then when he admitted it on videotape?

Damn you must hate freedom.

Once again you spew a bunch of unfounded crap without a single shred of evidence. You stated that Bush knew there were no WMD’s, yet I know of no proof of that. Where is your evidence?

Please understand what facts are and what opinion is. They are two different things. Just because you believe something does not make it true. Opinion is not fact. And I have yet to see a single string of logic in your arguments.

Just because you find web sites that have the same opinion as you is not a fact. Just because a company makes money off of a government action is not proof that they caused the action.

Please slow down and think. That is all I am asking on the Global Warming issue. Instead you jump to conclusions, and want radical changes that may be unnecessary.

Going back to Iraq, which should actually be discussed in another thread, as it really does not pertain to global warming, there was a whole lot of evidence that Iraq had WMD’s, and they were unwilling to show that they didn?t. The reasons they didn?t is because they still had a massive program in place.

How come nobody pays attention to this? Even if there were never any WMD’s there (by the way we did find a little, sarin, mustard, and a lot of disallowed missiles,) they still had a massive program that was ready to produce an imaginable amount of stuff. Maybe if we had not gone in, the threat would have been imminent.

Oh by the way, you are right, we haven’t found Osama. How do you propose we do? You don’t think this is easy do you? He is hiding in mountainous areas, that he knows, and we don’t, in a lot of hidden caves we know nothing about. It is hard to find people who don’t want to be found.

Now lets stay on topic shall we?

vroom wrote:
There was a time that farmers used DDT because it was economically feasible. Do you remember the repercussions of that? Simple economic feasibility and profits are not a good measure of whether something is appropriate. It is unable to cope with damages or risks that are not associated with the business in terms of responsibility or cost. Don’t be stupid.

Vroom Love your posts, but the “Silent Spring” issue pertaining DDT has been shown to be bunk. DDT had nothing to do with egg-shell thickness. DDT was the scape goat.

Read up on DTT here:

http://www.google.com/cobrand?q=DDT&cof=AWPID%3A199a028c5792299b%3B&domains=techcentralstation.com&sitesearch=techcentralstation.com&sa.x=7&sa.y=1

[quote]Chewman wrote:
vroom wrote:
There was a time that farmers used DDT because it was economically feasible. Do you remember the repercussions of that? Simple economic feasibility and profits are not a good measure of whether something is appropriate. It is unable to cope with damages or risks that are not associated with the business in terms of responsibility or cost. Don’t be stupid.

Vroom Love your posts, but the “Silent Spring” issue pertaining DDT has been shown to be bunk. DDT had nothing to do with egg-shell thickness. DDT was the scape goat.

Read up on DTT here:

http://www.google.com/cobrand?q=DDT&cof=AWPID%3A199a028c5792299b%3B&domains=techcentralstation.com&sitesearch=techcentralstation.com&sa.x=7&sa.y=1[/quote]

And, for good measure, economics can deal with this, but not easily. What are the costs to society of DDT, i.e., what are the damages done to our health (in $$ amounts) and what damage is done to animals (and how much do we care, economically speaking, in $$s). Take those costs and internalize them via a tax, and you have optimal pollution vs profit. It gets far more complex than this, obviously, but this is how it should be done in principle.

Junkscience is a good website as far as I know.

DDT FAQ with all the facts. Such as:

Some birds multiplied so well during the DDT years that they became pests:

6 million blackbirds ruined Scotland Neck, North Carolina in 1970, polluting streams, depositing nine inches of droppings on the ground and killing the forest where they roosted at night.

[Associated Press, March 18, 1970]

77 million blackbirds roosted within 50 miles of Ft. Campbell, KY increasing the risk of histoplasmosis in humans.

[Louisville Courier-Journal, December 1975.]

Ten million redwings were reported in a small area of northern Ohio.

[Graham, F. 1971. Bye-bye blackbirds? Audubon Magazine, pp. 29-35, September]

The Virginia Department of Agriculture stated, “We can no longer tolerate the damage caused by the redwing … 15 million tons of grain are destroyed annually enough to feed 90 million people.”

[Bulletin of the Virginia Department of Agriculture, May 1967]

The phenomena of increasing bird populations during the DDT years may be due, in part, to (1) fewer blood-sucking insects and reduced spread of avian diseases (avian malaria, rickettsial-pox, avian bronchitis, Newcastle disease, encephalitis, etc); (2) more seed and fruits available for birds to eat after plant-eating insects were decimated; and (3) Ingestion of DDT triggers hepatic enzymes that detoxify carcinogens such as aflatoxin.

http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm

Or how about the Ozone. (I didn?t know about this myself.):

What about the all-important “solar shield” we hear so much about having to protect so that it will preserve us from UV bombardment? Well, not much, actually. UVA (ultraviolet radiation in the 320-400 nanometer [nm] band), which is implicated in deep skin DNA changes thought responsible for melanomas, is not blocked by ozone at all. UVB (270-320nm), which causes sunburn, is both blocked by ozone (O3) and, if allowed to penetrate the atmosphere, creates ozone lower in the atmosphere where it can be an irritant in photochemical smog - thick clouds also block UVB. UVC (<270nm), which would cause severe burns with short exposure, does not penetrate the atmosphere, blocked completely by atmospheric oxygen (O2), in addition to ozone (O3). Regardless, life flourishes in the tropics, where stratospheric ozone levels are never high and where solar radiation bombardment is roughly 1,000 times higher than that received in the region of the Antarctic Ozone Anomaly.

http://www.junkscience.com/Ozone/ozone_seasonal.htm