Get Your Damn Blood Tests!

[quote]KNB wrote:
Hey Kuz,
Since nobody else has jumped in, I will. Here is what I would have tested:

1.Total Testosterone
2.Free Testosterone
3.Free Testosterone percentage
4.E2, or Q-Estradiol not “sensitive” Estrogen
5.SHBG
6.IGF-1
7.TSH (thyroid)
8.Free T4 "
9.Free T3 "
10.Free T4 Percentage
11.Free T4 Percentage
12.DHEA-Sulfate
13.PSA (you’re never too young to check)

These are just part of the hormones tests.
There’s always
LH,FSH, and two or three more I don’t remember right now.
[/QUOTE]

That list is fine, but it’s overkill IMO

For people who have to pay for their tests or have difficulty convincing their doctors, you could easily cut that list down to:
Total testosterone
TSH
PSA (I wouldn’t bother if you are <40 to be honest)

If any of the above are abnormal, then you could move on and have further tests done. If the TSH is abnormal, get the T3 and T4 etc. You would have to be extraordinarily unlucky to have abnormal thyroid function without a deranged TSH.
Same situation with testosterone. If it’s abnormal, look at LH and FSH, SHBG etc. You’d be very unlucky to have SHBG problems with a normal total test.

CBC with differential :slight_smile:

These are very routine tests and so should be fairly cheap.

I’m not sure what a “comprehensive metabolic panel” includes but bodybuilders will want to be checking kidney and liver function in particular so - urea, creatinine, K, Na, Cl, AST, ALT, ALP, albumin etc are worthwhile.

Anyway I just hoped that would help a few of you out. I’m not trying to criticise the original post - just to say that if you pay for your tests by ordering them online, or you have to pay with your current insurance, you can save money by only going for the essentials.

IBMS,
Just the essentials is a good idea, as long as free testosterone, it added to the total testosterone blood test with the TSH.
A total testosterone of 6000 (example only) would be basically useless if it was all bound up as SHBG, or converting to estrogen.
We all know (I think) the free testosterone number is as, if not more important than total testosterone.

KSman, got any suggestions to add here?

Thanks guys I’ll look into it soon.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Not an over 35 lifter, but a young buck wanting some more experienced guys to chime in. If you were 20 years old again and had the knowledge you do now what tests would you get done? Same ones listed here(free test, ,shbg, igf1 etc) or something different? [/quote]

What this thread is about is younger guys getting a baseline record while they’re balls are still putting out. Meaning, in addition to your normal physical draws for health, get your hormone panel (something you’ll probably have to farm out for) so you have a healthy starting point for comparison. Just once is all you will need - date it, and save it in some fireproof safebox for when the inevitable happens. Now, 20 or 30 years later when you get the feelings of depression, lost libido, and so forth, and you go get your numbers checked and they come back at the low end of the normal range, you should be able to whip out your crusty old lab results and say, “hey doc, this is MY healthy level.” It’s ammunition in the fight.

So yeah, get your basic male panel done - total test, free test, estradiol, SHBG, etc…

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1889695

in october i tested at 313 for testosterone, i used REZ-V and Alpha Male since then, and the last month i used ZMA, i am at 443 now, over 41% increase, i’m glad i checked the before and after so i know i am not just pissing my money away

[quote]ontothenext wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Not an over 35 lifter, but a young buck wanting some more experienced guys to chime in. If you were 20 years old again and had the knowledge you do now what tests would you get done? Same ones listed here(free test, ,shbg, igf1 etc) or something different?

What this thread is about is younger guys getting a baseline record while they’re balls are still putting out. Meaning, in addition to your normal physical draws for health, get your hormone panel (something you’ll probably have to farm out for) so you have a healthy starting point for comparison. Just once is all you will need - date it, and save it in some fireproof safebox for when the inevitable happens. Now, 20 or 30 years later when you get the feelings of depression, lost libido, and so forth, and you go get your numbers checked and they come back at the low end of the normal range, you should be able to whip out your crusty old lab results and say, “hey doc, this is MY healthy level.” It’s ammunition in the fight.

So yeah, get your basic male panel done - total test, free test, estradiol, SHBG, etc…[/quote]

Thank you for simplifying my rant, I just hadn’t seen the simplified obvious.

Testing:

I think that some lab work is a waste or ill-timed. If you cannot take action to change something you measure, then why bother.

hGH, IGF-1: If you cannot afford or will not qualify, don’t bother checking.

LH, FST: If young and hypo, get these checked. If very low, then proceed to eval cancer or lesions to the pituitary. If age related hypo, don’t bother. After TRT is in place, testing LH & FST is insane.

SHBG: You cannot change this directly. If E2 is elevated, SHBG will be too. If you lower E2, SHBG is expected to follow. Otherwise there is nothing that you can do about this. If severe estrogen or estrogen metabolic pathway problems are found later, SHBG might be of limited diagnostic use.

DHT: Testing before TRT creates data and nothing else. After TRT is in place, testing will show that DHT has increased. That has no value at all. Skip the pre-TRT DHT test. Test only after DHT and this, when done at all, is of use to confirm that one is not a DHT over responder. Concern for DHT levels would be when PSA also tracks significantly higher. Note that PSA baseline shift higher most of the time in response to TRT. The prostate makes a one time size increase in response to T&DHT that is independent of any HPT and cell proliferation/inflammation concerns. Testing for this is also part of a concern for prostate problems and getting sued. As part of this, you should have a DRE before and after starting TRT and once a year after that.

PSA: All men should be getting PSA tests done. If PSA is ok and a DRE or sonogram is clear, there is no reason not to do TRT.

Thyroid levels: If one’s metabolism is in decent shape, this should not be tested before TRT. TRT will typically improve or shift thyroid levels. Knowing how much this change was before and after starting TRT is of no value to you. If one does have thyroid issues, it is better to eval thyroid levels after one gets TRT in place as one’s new metabolic baseline. If TRT is in place and R2 numbers are in the lower 20s [using anastrozole], then low energy and/or not loosing fat as expected, they hypothyroidism can be suspected and tests performed. Test for THS, FT3, FT4. Never treat with T3 or T4 alone.

Adrenal: As above. In some cases there will be thyroid and adrenal problems. If that is the case and one corrects low thyroid levels, this increase in metabolism will hit a wall if the adrenals are weak. I do not understand what one feels when that happens, but I get the impression that it is a very serious situation.

Homocysteine and CRP: These should be tested as part of a general health program. TRT improves endothelial functioning and lowers blood pressure. So some post TRT changes could be expected. If these labs are at a level of concern, one should be taking measures immediately as a parallel effort to TRT. Corrective agents will be things like EFAs (fish oils), niacin, folic acid, anti oxidants and other effective supplements.

Pre TRT: TT, FT, E2, PSA are essential.

E2 - estradiol: This can be the basic serum E2 test from labcorp. Many state that for Quest, one needs the high sensitivity test. Do not get total estrogens. Total estrogens can be checked post TRT if there are suspicions of abnormal estrogen metabolic pathways and elevated levels of estrogen metabolites.

Post TRT: Add DHT, many not be any need to repeat routinely.

CBC: One’s complete blood count probably will always include hematocrit. TRT for some will push this above 50%. That can be concern that may require routine blood donation or such.

DHEA’s and pregnenolone: can be checked as part of an age management and general wellness effort. If one starts TRT without hCG, HPTA shutdown will also stop pregnenolone production in the testes, which has its own consequences for mental well-being and also leads to lower DHEA. TRT will shift these numbers. If these are low before TRT, one supplementation can start right away. In my case, starting with T alone dropped these numbers significantly. Adding hCG can improve these numbers, but will not increase these to optimal levels. If pregnenolone is effectively increased, DHEA sometimes follows on its own. Changes to pregnenolone production in response to hCG depends on the ability of the testes to respond to LH and their state of aging etc.

If one pays for all of their labs out of pocket, then it makes sense to control what is tested and when. Savings in lab costs might cover ones costs for test ester and hCG. Lab work is the largest single component of TRT in many cases, unless one is using transdermal testosterone.

Wow, really awesome, useful info. Thanks much.

[quote]KNB wrote:
happydog48 wrote:
You’re more concerned about what your doctor thinks of you than you are about your own health and well being? What the fuck is that about?

If you can’t simply say to your doctor that you’re concerned about your testosterone and estradiol levels and you want them checked, then something is seriously wrong.

Thanks “dog”, I was hoping somebody would say that…[/quote]

Whoa whoa whoa. Everyone settle down! Good Lord. In case you missed my point (which seems fairly apparent “dog”), I am not concerned about him having a bad opinion of me, but actually more concerned about him not even wanting to do the testing or, in the event the tests show low (but “acceptable”) T-levels, not being interested in doing something about it. Neither of those things are outside the realm of possibility. I like my doctor and I don’t much feeling like shopping around for a new one based on all of this if I can help it.

So take a deepth breath and let’s not turn this into an Internet tough guy contest.

Kuz, Whoa!
This is not a tough guy contest. This IS a group of men, that sometimes (although rough around the edges) don’t use the greatest finesse when making a point. I know the “dog” well enough to know it was a question of concern not a statement of personal attack.

Please understand (if you don’t already) those of us that have lived in “hell” before, will do whatever we can (within reason) to help a fellow man out the “welcome to hell” syndrome he now faces. Your point is now clear, thank you for clarifying your position.

There are no keyboard warriors in this thread so far, and I’d like to see it stay that way.
Thanks for your understanding in advance.

KNB

[quote]KNB wrote:

Please understand (if you don’t already) those of us that have lived in “hell” before, will do whatever we can (within reason) to help a fellow man out the “welcome to hell” syndrome he now faces. Your point is now clear, thank you for clarifying your position.

KNB [/quote]

I can say that for me, it is the selfish reminder of what it was like for me to live in hell and how I hated it that makes me help others. Either way, we all get our help.

Great buncha guys.

[quote]KNB wrote:
Kuz, Whoa!
This is not a tough guy contest. This IS a group of men, that sometimes (although rough around the edges) don’t use the greatest finesse when making a point. I know the “dog” well enough to know it was a question of concern not a statement of personal attack.

Please understand (if you don’t already) those of us that have lived in “hell” before, will do whatever we can (within reason) to help a fellow man out the “welcome to hell” syndrome he now faces. Your point is now clear, thank you for clarifying your position.

There are no keyboard warriors in this thread so far, and I’d like to see it stay that way.
Thanks for your understanding in advance.

KNB [/quote]

Just checking and thanks for clarifying a bit. Maybe I’m just too used to the juveniles infesting so many other portions of the forum, but dog’s comment still came off like I was somehow less than a man in my approach… so chances are I’m going to take a little exception to that. :slight_smile:

It’s all good. Looking forward to hearing more from everyone on this topic.

Maybe this is a good springboard into the concern I outlined above: How many of you have gone to your doctor and just got a runaround on either approving the test (always nice when insurance can cover things) or after getting the test, having your low positive T-level results be poo-pooed as “something to accept as part of aging”? I think that’s what I’m most curious about. Do you end up finding a whole new physician? If not, then what?

Sorry if I was too brusque. I wasn’t trying to start a pissing contest; I meant to question your priorities.

My point was who cares? There’s nothing unreasonable about asking to have your T and E checked and if he gives you grief over something that simple and reasonable, then you’ve learned that he’s not the guy and it’s time to move on.

You’re getting way ahead of yourself here. The subject of this thread is blood tests. Asking to have a blood test is not asking for a prescription. Any doctor that resists your request for a blood test is being unreasonable. That’s why I said if you can’t simply ask for a blood test then something is seriously wrong and I stand by that.

It sounded to me like you were trying to find reasons to not have your blood tested and I can’t accept that.

This isn’t about me and you. This is about you and your doctor and your health. KNB was right, my rant was based on the fact that I’ve seen too many guys get fucked over by doctors (mine included) who were either too ignorant or too unconcerned to help their patients. If you go into this whole hormone deal with the idea that what you want is secondary to what he wants, you’re automatically doomed.

The bottom line for you and everyone else is get the damn tests and then cross whatever bridges come up afterwards. Don’t let fear (of anything) stop you from making the first essential step. There is simply no valid reason to ignore your hormonal health and if your doctor tries to brush it off for any reason, he’s working against you.

I’ve spent countless hours doing research because my doctors were too ignorant and/or too uncaring to give me the treatment I needed. 15 years of my life got pretty much flushed down the toilet because I trusted my doctors and didn’t take responsibility for my own well being, so yeah, when it comes to guys not standing up for themselves, I have a real attitude… because I’ve been there.

“Welcome to hell” isn’t a cute catchphrase for those of us doing TRT. It’s the literal truth of what to expect if you go into this without knowing what you want and/or aren’t willing to confront your doctor if you don’t get it.

Low testosterone will ruin the quality of your life and eventually KILL YOU. Balancing that against something as silly as what he may think of you is crazy.

By the way gents,
I am SURE by now you all know about the studies showing as men age, if they have higher testosterone levels their tendency to develop Alzheimer’s is lessened, and osteoporosis is greatly reduced, and heart health is increased, and you’ll just have to read the rest of the studies for yourselves.
Ever wondered why young(er) men survive heart attacks better than old(er) men? The stronger the heart is, the better it recovers, and faster too. So let’s break this down; more testosterone means stronger muscles (heart included) osteoporosis problems are diminished, I almost forgot Alzheimer’s in the list too. (sorry couldn’t resist). Oh yea, you can die prematurely too. And the other prematurely thing won’t happen anymore with enough testosterone either.

Have we said enough to convince the stubborn ones yet ? I hope so, and I hope you live long enough to Christen your grandkids too.
You have a choice now, make the right one.

New here but yes I recently had a physical and diabetes/ blood work the whole nine yards.Im 44 and after a bad injury a few years ago Im starting to get back into lifting and just staying in tip top shape!Was here years ago but forgot my password and username.Glad to be back

BKG

While I agree in principle, a lot of this is either not practical or the doctor will refuse to test you.

The first doc I went to refused to test. He sent me to a specialist at my insistance. The specialist wanted to test everything but LH, Test, and so on. Wouldn’t do the tests I requested until I grabbed my coat.

When doc #1 got results, refused any treatment even though I was WAY below minimum on Test. Specialist gave me 5 mg Androgel/day. The nightmare was just beginning.

Skip to the end…

My current doctor has the results of 2 tests seperated by 2 months. Both show my E almost double the max. Won’t treat it, except by lowering my T dose — “That will lower the E, don’t you know?”

Tried Ana, gave me BAD cramps. Arimidex is expensive and illegal w/o script. Rather spend the money on Test…

So, I simply inject 400 mg/week of Cyp and all doctors can get a red hot fireplace poker up their collective asses.

The vast majority of the population doesn’t give a rat’s ass about health. They don’t even bother to do the simple stuff like eat right and exercise regularly. Another problem is that the vast majority of the population also has the false belief that their doctor cares about their health. Nothing could be further from the truth. Very few doctors even know anything about health. Their knowledge and interest is disease.

Getting your T and E levels checked is about maintaining your health. If your doctor doesn’t want to help you maintain your health, then that is a very important thing to know. He may be a great guy and you may feel that you have a good relationship with him, but if he isn’t going to help you maintain your health, then I submit that you need to rethink that relationship.

Hopefully, T-Nation readers aren’t like the vast majority of the population. Hopefully, we’re eating right and training regularly and doing our best to be not simply free of disease, but to be in optimum health.

Knowing about your hormonal health is part of that picture and knowing if your doctor is working with you or against you is a very valuable piece of information to have. Ask for the tests. Find out where he’s coming from and use that to help yourself.

If your doctor doesn’t want to help you maintain your health, you can order the tests on your own through the Life Extension Foundation.

Male Hormone Panel

Male Life Extension Panel

In the end, you may end up like Headhunter (and me) and be forced into maintaining your health on your own. Well, worse things could happen… you could wind up doing commercials for Viagra and remembering the good old days when you were a man. The choice is yours.

I hope every man over 35 takes this thread seriously enough to get at least the “minimum” blood testing done. Without prior test results when things eventually go bad (and they will), you get to play the law of averages. The ones that are not in your favor.

Agreed – get your levels tested while you are healthy and fully functioning.

It is a great piece of insurance should your testicles fail later.

It took me about a year and a half to get my dosage regulated – finally, the doctor agreed with me that I was probably a “High Normal” back when the boys were fully functioning.

How much easier it would have been if I could have taken in [b]a piece of paper that showed my levels[b/] back when my balls were working their magic

[quote]Kuz wrote:

Maybe this is a good springboard into the concern I outlined above: How many of you have gone to your doctor and just got a runaround on either approving the test (always nice when insurance can cover things) or after getting the test, having your low positive T-level results be poo-pooed as “something to accept as part of aging”? I think that’s what I’m most curious about. Do you end up finding a whole new physician? If not, then what?[/quote]

Scheduled an appointment for a physical. Asked the doctor to test, well, not everything on the list above, but a lot of them. He didn’t blink an eye and wrote up the order for the lab. Went down to the lab and they pulled the blood. Went back for followup to go over the results, and filed them away in the cabinet. (Not a fireproof one.) Whole thing cost $20 (2 office visit copays).

This is with an HMO - Kaiser.