[quote]First, a report from the University of Chicago called ?Belief About God Across Time and Countries? looked at survey data from 30 countries, reaching as far back as 1991. While many of the news stories about this report focused on figures showing a tendency for numbers of religious believers to increase with age, the figures also showed the overall percentage of religious believers declined in most countries, showing an increase in only three:
??the % saying they were atheists increased in 15 of 18 countries from 1991 to 2008 with an average increase of 1.7 percentage points. For 1998 to 2008, atheists grew in 23 of 30 countries for an average gain of 2.3 points. Conversely ? certain belief in God declined in 14 of 18 countries from 1991 to 2008 with an average decrease of 2.4 points and from 1998 to 2008 loses occurred in 24 of 30 countries for a similar average decline of 2.4 points. Likewise ? never believing in God rose in 14 of 17 countries from 1991 to 2008 for an average increase of 1.6 points and increased in 20 of 29 countries from 1998 to 2008 by an average gain of 2.2 points.?
Second, a study called ?The State of the Bible 2012? done by the Barna Group for the American Bible Society found that Americans are losing interest in the Bible. In just one year, the number of people who said they read the Bible to be ?closer to God? dropped 9 percentage points from 64% in 2011 to 55% in 2012. Results show a drop from 75% to 69% of people who said ?the Bible contains everything a person needs to know to live a meaningful life.? Those people who agreed that the Bible has ?too much influence? in U.S. society increased from 13% to 16%, while those who thought the Bible had ?too little influence? dropped from 54% to 47%.
While these figures are only for the span of a single year, the changes indicated are not small for such a short period of time. Additional surveys will need to be done to show a permanent trend, but other recent studies have given us similar results. For example, the ongoing State of the States survey by Gallup found in 2011 that 40% of Americans are ?very religious,? down from 65% in 2008. And new research on the Millennials?those between the ages of 18 and 29?show a 20 percent decline from those who were raised Christians and now no longer consider themselves such.[/quote]
Some of these things are indeed hard to measure, but “butts” in pews is also down.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Tax-exempt status (despite what a church may do for its local community) is done. Wouldn’t give tax-exempt status to a white-supremacist group, would you? If charters schools and vouchers ever take off, forget using your voucher to send your kid to a religious school. Wouldn’t allow tax money to be applied to a Klan run school, would you?
[/quote]
This is nowhere near true on the whole yet despite the few instances one can find where it is accurate. Ironically though many churches violate tax exempt status by pushing for or against political party members. And yet they maintain that tax exempt status despite breaking rules that they agreed to.
In fact calling some of these places “non-profit” is hilarious. Not to mention the irony of a religious institution willingly breaking rules it agrees to follow.
Though I will admit I am not arguing that something needs to be done about it right now, I’m just pointing out the obvious errors in my opinion to your post which is largely based on hey the future might not be like this.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Tax-exempt status (despite what a church may do for its local community) is done. Wouldn’t give tax-exempt status to a white-supremacist group, would you? If charters schools and vouchers ever take off, forget using your voucher to send your kid to a religious school. Wouldn’t allow tax money to be applied to a Klan run school, would you?
[/quote]
This is nowhere near true yet despite the few instances one can find where it is accurate. Ironically though many churches violate tax exempt status by pushing for or against political party members. And yet they maintain that tax exempt status despite breaking rules that they agreed to.
In fact calling some of these places “non-profit” is hilarious.
Though I will admit I am not arguing that something needs to be done about it right now, I’m just pointing out the obvious errors in my opinion to your post which is largely based on hey the future might not be like this. [/quote]
Of course it will be as I said.
“Wouldn’t oppose state-recognized mixed marriage, would we?”
“Wouldn’t allow a photographer to refuse photographing a mixed-race wedding, would we?”
The argument has always been that devout orthodox Christians are bigots (hence the racial hypotheticals that always came up). Including myself. So, now that the state recognizes gay marriages, it has its hooks in the Christian photographer. The state must now treat orthodox belief like racialist ideologies. To be even remotely logically consistent it must revoke tax-exempt status, and combat orthodox Christian belief wherever it can remotely claim any powers. It must actively seek to combat through the same avenues they have to combat racism. Such as, if school choice vouchers ever took off, not allowing parents to choose a Catholic school, for example.
To be even remotely logically consistent it must revoke tax-exempt status, and combat orthodox Christian belief wherever it can remotely claim any powers. It must actively seek to combat through the same avenues they have to combat racism. Such as, if school choice vouchers ever took off, not allowing parents to choose a Catholic school, for example.
[/quote]
Pure opinion at this point and nowhere near true for the vast majority of churches in 2014. This is an emotional argument based on what you think the future “may” hold. It is every bit as emotionally and unfactually based as the “we are selling our kids futures right now” from earlier in the thread.
And as I already said many churches are already breaking the spirit of the non profit tax exemption status by purposefully (and not even trying to hide it) endorsing or attacking political members. And it happens with Democrats and Republicans.
Your EXACT same diatribe could be used for civil rights and anti-miscegenation laws. “Now that the state is making it not a crime to marry black and white people our tax exempt status is next. They have their hooks in us by forcing us to serve black people.”
Of course the religious will talk about how much different it is and ignore the vast parallels, but nothing that is currently going on right now proves your future for you.
To be even remotely logically consistent it must revoke tax-exempt status, and combat orthodox Christian belief wherever it can remotely claim any powers. It must actively seek to combat through the same avenues they have to combat racism. Such as, if school choice vouchers ever took off, not allowing parents to choose a Catholic school, for example.
[/quote]
Pure opinion at this point and nowhere near true for the vast majority of churches in 2014. This is an emotional argument based on what you think the future “may” hold. It is every bit as emotionally and unfactually based as the “we are selling our kids futures right now” from earlier in the thread. [/quote]
It isn’t an emotional argument. It is logically applying the arguments that would compel a Christian photographer to attend a gay wedding, or give up her photography business all together. You’ve already seen the arguments. Heck, you might have made them yourself.
The ‘inter-racial’ arguments. Therefore, making orthodox Christian belief equivalent to racial discrimination. Therefore, the state using every avenue it can to favor opposing views, and disfavor the Christian view. Such as employment/business laws. Tax status. Program eligibility. Etc.
“Fairness.” The anti-discrimination powers of the state must be “fairly” extended to combat views that have a negative view with regards to a sexual orientation, because it does so with racialism. It wouldn’t be fair and/or equal to not do the same.
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
It is because they ARE religious that they are intolerant of me !
So F-em, let them have their little fantasies to keep them going…[/quote]
You mean to tell me that Atheists aren’t intolerant of you? I was born in a country that claims to be among the most tolerant in the world, the Netherlands, and have traveled extensively in Europe, you know, the bastion of tolerance, and I can tell you with a 100% certainty that intolerance towards you and how you identify has very little to do with religion (because very few over there are religious or even believe).
This aversion and cruelty towards a person like you manifests across the board.
The religious and non-religious, the believer and atheist are uncomfortable because they simply do not understand, at all, what you are going through.
For the religious it might be easy to say; “well the Bible/Koran etc says…” and be done with it but that’s actually a kindness compared to what I have heard Atheist describe someone in your position.
I think it absolutely sucks and I feel for you and I have a good friend who suffers similarly but to blame religion and give non-believers a free pass is not right. As a matter of fact, more religious people have reached out to my friend than any other. Her own family disowned her yet a small Hope Church accepted her just the way she identifies. Don’t try to change her, convince her of anything other than that Jesus loves her and will accept her the way she is.
Your experience is obviously different but you cannot paint the world with your brush.
To be even remotely logically consistent it must revoke tax-exempt status, and combat orthodox Christian belief wherever it can remotely claim any powers. It must actively seek to combat through the same avenues they have to combat racism. Such as, if school choice vouchers ever took off, not allowing parents to choose a Catholic school, for example.
[/quote]
Pure opinion at this point and nowhere near true for the vast majority of churches in 2014. This is an emotional argument based on what you think the future “may” hold. It is every bit as emotionally and unfactually based as the “we are selling our kids futures right now” from earlier in the thread. [/quote]
It isn’t an emotional argument. It is logically applying the arguments that would compel a Christian photographer to attend a gay wedding, or give up her photography business all together. You’ve already seen the arguments. Heck, you might have made them yourself.
The ‘inter-racial’ arguments. Therefore, making orthodox Christian belief equivalent to racial discrimination. Therefore, the state using every avenue it can to favor opposing views, and disfavor the Christian view. Such as employment/business laws. Tax status. Program eligibility. Etc.
“Fairness.” The anti-discrimination powers of the state must be “fairly” extended to combat views that have a negative view with regards to a sexual orientation, because it does so with racialism. It wouldn’t be fair and/or equal to not do the same.
It must. It will.
[/quote]
So WHY didn’t it during Civil Rights? Why didn’t it during Roe V. Wade? Why in all the times one could have made these arguments about something in regards to the Church have they kept tax exempt status?
“If X happens then Y HAS to happen and will happen.”
Slippery slope fallacy at its finest and based on nothing more than what you claim is going to be true in the future. Which is demonstrably not true today. And likely untrue for the near future. The far away future is not even worth predicting.
This time it is going to be different though. This time the sky will fall. It’s a chicken little argument which is often used by the paranoid about social changes and is a hallmark of the anti-gay movement. All we actually have is your word. Kinda like faith…you’ve come to a conclusion based on things you want to believe in this my man.
To be even remotely logically consistent it must revoke tax-exempt status, and combat orthodox Christian belief wherever it can remotely claim any powers. It must actively seek to combat through the same avenues they have to combat racism. Such as, if school choice vouchers ever took off, not allowing parents to choose a Catholic school, for example.
[/quote]
Pure opinion at this point and nowhere near true for the vast majority of churches in 2014. This is an emotional argument based on what you think the future “may” hold. It is every bit as emotionally and unfactually based as the “we are selling our kids futures right now” from earlier in the thread. [/quote]
It isn’t an emotional argument. It is logically applying the arguments that would compel a Christian photographer to attend a gay wedding, or give up her photography business all together. You’ve already seen the arguments. Heck, you might have made them yourself.
The ‘inter-racial’ arguments. Therefore, making orthodox Christian belief equivalent to racial discrimination. Therefore, the state using every avenue it can to favor opposing views, and disfavor the Christian view. Such as employment/business laws. Tax status. Program eligibility. Etc.
“Fairness.” The anti-discrimination powers of the state must be “fairly” extended to combat views that have a negative view with regards to a sexual orientation, because it does so with racialism. It wouldn’t be fair and/or equal to not do the same.
It must. It will.
[/quote]
So WHY didn’t it during Civil Rights? Why didn’t it during Roe V. Wade? Why in all the times one could have made these arguments about something in regards to the Church have they kept tax exempt status?
“If X happens then Y HAS to happen and will happen.”
Slippery slope fallacy at its finest and based on nothing more than what you claim is going to be true in the future. Which is demonstrably not true today. And likely untrue for the near future. The far away future is not even worth predicting.
This time it is going to be different though. This time the sky will fall. It’s a chicken little argument which is often used by the paranoid about social changes and is a hallmark of the anti-gay movement. All we actually have is your word. Kinda like faith…you’ve come to a conclusion based on things you want to believe in this my man. [/quote]
You’re not making sense. It’s obviously going to happen. It’s already starting with employment/business laws. You don’t actually think a libertarian right to “refusal of service” is being honored, do you?
You’re not making sense. It’s obviously going to happen. It’s already starting with employment/business laws. You don’t actually think a libertarian right to “refusal of service” is being honored, do you? [/quote]
Stay consistent with the argument. I was talking about tax exempt status for churches which you said is done (demonstrably untrue). Don’t attempt to shift the debate. When a libertarian right to refusal of service went away with blacks and whites did churches lose their tax exempt status?
No. And you have NOTHING concrete to say that they will right now. Just a hunch. Just an emotional slippery slope based feeling. My posts have all been talking about tax exempt status for churches and have nothing to do with employment/business laws (which actually doesn’t help your case since churches have kept tax exempt statuses in the past even when those things changed).
Not to mention as I have repeatedly said I am AGAINST government action to keep these things from occurring. Private business owners should be able to make their own decisions. I have never said otherwise.
You’ve turned a few events into the stopping of tax exempt statuses for churches and kids not being allowed to attend private Christian schools. Absolute hogwash.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I was talking about tax exempt status for churches which you said is done (demonstrably untrue).[/quote]
Of course it is. You’d have to be shortsighted as all get out to not see its has little time left.
What? I think you’re using that accusation wrong.
That doesn’t make sense…
Homosexuality as sinful behavior, immoral behavior, is a inherent teaching of orthodox Christianity. Tax status will not survive the now normalized argument that is not protected belief, but is instead bigoted. See, wedding photographer, again. That status will not survive “the government shouldn’t give tax exempt status to bigoted groups. Would we allow racialist groups to do so?”
It’s already there. The argument is already made. Tax exempt status can’t survive for much longer.
Doesn’t matter, because there was never any chance this would be the case.
The first step will be though religious private schools, hospitals, and other such organizations. The IRS has done this with private schools, for instance, over racism.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I was talking about tax exempt status for churches which you said is done (demonstrably untrue).[/quote]
Of course it is. You’d have to be shortsighted as all get out to not see its has little time left.
[/quote]
This is absolute crap. The Westboro Baptist Church is tax exempt.
Churches are in no danger of losing this status because of gay marriage. Absolutely none at all. You’re making arguments out of thin air out of a paranoid fear.
And your arguments are some of the exact same arguments used years ago in the “fear” over civil rights. They didn’t come for your tax exempt status then, but now all of the sudden they will?
Paranoid religious fear, nothing more or less.
So a church that has KIDS holding up signs that say God Hates Fags is tax exempt. I think that pretty much defeats your alarmist argument on that alone.
Over 700,000 people signed a protest and the Obama White House did not change its tax exempt status. And yet all of the sudden this is changing and I’m shortsighted to think otherwise?
Nah, your “faith” in this is emotional and demonstrably untrue for right now and the forseeable future.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I was talking about tax exempt status for churches which you said is done (demonstrably untrue).[/quote]
Of course it is. You’d have to be shortsighted as all get out to not see its has little time left.
[/quote]
This is absolute crap. The Westboro Baptist Church is tax exempt.
Churches are in no danger of losing this status because of gay marriage. Absolutely none at all. You’re making arguments out of thin air out of a paranoid fear.
[/quote]
No, I’m making my arguments based on how state gay marriage has changed perception. For instance, a Christian photographer HAS TO go to homosexual weddings. Churches are in GRAVE danger of losing their status. First starting with any all organizations they’re associated with (hospitals, schools, etc.)
"So a church that has KIDS holding up signs that say God Hates Fags is tax exempt. I think that pretty much defeats your alarmist argument on that alone.
Over 700,000 people signed a protest and the Obama White House did not change its tax exempt status. And yet all of the sudden this is changing and I’m shortsighted to think otherwise?
Nah, your “faith” in this is emotional and demonstrably untrue for right now and the forseeable future."
[quote]H factor wrote:
"So a church that has KIDS holding up signs that say God Hates Fags is tax exempt. I think that pretty much defeats your alarmist argument on that alone.
[/quote]
No, actually it doesn’t. You act as if I said this would happen TODAY.
Obviously I’m well aware the status is still there TODAY. Edit: I was just in Church Wednesday.
[quote]H factor wrote:
"So a church that has KIDS holding up signs that say God Hates Fags is tax exempt. I think that pretty much defeats your alarmist argument on that alone.
Over 700,000 people signed a protest and the Obama White House did not change its tax exempt status. And yet all of the sudden this is changing and I’m shortsighted to think otherwise?
Nah, your “faith” in this is emotional and demonstrably untrue for right now and the forseeable future."
[quote]H factor wrote:
"So a church that has KIDS holding up signs that say God Hates Fags is tax exempt. I think that pretty much defeats your alarmist argument on that alone.
Over 700,000 people signed a protest and the Obama White House did not change its tax exempt status. And yet all of the sudden this is changing and I’m shortsighted to think otherwise?
Nah, your “faith” in this is emotional and demonstrably untrue for right now and the forseeable future."
GRAVE danger?
Absolute hogwash. [/quote]
No more emotional when I was telling everyone how Christian photographers, for example, would face what they are now facing.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
The first step will be though religious private schools, hospitals, and other such organizations. The IRS has done this with private schools, for instance, over racism. [/quote]
You will certainly agree this will at least happen.