Get Rid of All Religion?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]espenl wrote:
A world without religion would be great, but it will not happen any time soon. Luckily I live in one of the worlds most secular countries. Meanwhile enjoy the good things like Bach and the Cologne Cathedral.[/quote]

You enjoy the material things, peace, security and comfort that you have because western civilization, founded and guided by religion, has delivered it to you. Not because of secularism.[/quote]

What an absolutely absurd statement to make. Thank God Religion delivered us all these abundant treasures we have.

It wasn’t until the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment when we slowly began the descent away from religion that our Western Civilization even began.

What an unbelievably conceited thing for a believer to say. “You can thank religion for what you have.”

Wow. Uhmm, I came in saying don’t get rid of religion, but the believers are stopping in to take credit for everything good that has happened despite the insurmountable evidence that as we have become more secular we have seen less wars, bloodshed, and poverty.

We can thank men and women for what we have and the increase in knowledge that led us to today.
[/quote]

Pretty sure you forgot about both Roman & Greek history, as far as Western Civ is concerned…

202

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]espenl wrote:
A world without religion would be great, but it will not happen any time soon. Luckily I live in one of the worlds most secular countries. Meanwhile enjoy the good things like Bach and the Cologne Cathedral.[/quote]

You enjoy the material things, peace, security and comfort that you have because western civilization, founded and guided by religion, has delivered it to you. Not because of secularism.[/quote]

What an absolutely absurd statement to make. Thank God Religion delivered us all these abundant treasures we have.

It wasn’t until the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment when we slowly began the descent away from religion that our Western Civilization even began.

What an unbelievably conceited thing for a believer to say. “You can thank religion for what you have.”

Wow. Uhmm, I came in saying don’t get rid of religion, but the believers are stopping in to take credit for everything good that has happened despite the insurmountable evidence that as we have become more secular we have seen less wars, bloodshed, and poverty.

We can thank men and women for what we have and the increase in knowledge that led us to today.
[/quote]

Pretty sure you forgot about both Roman & Greek history, as far as Western Civ is concerned…

[/quote]

It wasn’t meant to be a history lesson nor a history discussion. I have largely been talking about America and was trying to maintain that consistency.

We can still thank men for those things. Though apparently the God crowd came in to remind everyone that religion is the only reason anything good has happened.

203

[quote]H factor wrote:

We can still thank men for those things. Though apparently the God crowd came in to remind everyone that religion is the only reason anything good has happened. [/quote]

The God crowd? Might I request “the God Squad?” Sounds cooler.

204

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

We can still thank men for those things. Though apparently the God crowd came in to remind everyone that religion is the only reason anything good has happened. [/quote]

The God crowd? Might I request “the God Squad?” Sounds cooler.
[/quote]

Yeah, the weird thing is I came in defending religion, but I’m being reminded why some of its followers on here (not really you) are largely arrogant pricks.

Which I’m sure it says somewhere in the New Testament to be like that. Trolls gonna troll I guess. I just expect better from some of them which is probably my fault for assuming one of them would grow up.

God Squad does sound cooler.

206

[quote]H factor wrote:

It wasn’t meant to be a history lesson nor a history discussion. I have largely been talking about America and was trying to maintain that consistency.

[/quote]

That’s fine, but I still think Roman and Greek history sort of pokes a couple holes in your assertion in refutation to Push.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue it further, so don’t pay me any mind. lol.

207

[quote]
It wasn’t until the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment when we slowly began the descent away from religion that our Western Civilization even began.

What an unbelievably conceited thing for a believer to say. “You can thank religion for what you have.”[/quote]

I’m not a believer but …

One of the most important invention we have made, before modern medecine and the “tidal wave”, is certainly the invention of Gutenberg’s press.

Which occured during the Renaissance, well before the Enlightenment era.

The Enlightenment would have been impossible without it.
It allowed the birth and growth of public opinion, renewed the sentiment of an european identity, and prepared the advent of modern democracy.

As you certainly know, Gutenberg was a catholic, and the first use of his invention was the printing of a Bible.

More generally,
There would be no western civilization to speak about if the Catholic Church had simply chosen to obliterate the pagan roman culture.
Not only the Church didn’t obliterate this culture, even if they were in a position to do it, but it preserved, transmited and renewed it.

Where would we be today if the Irish Monks hadn’t saved the knowledge of the Greek language ?
Remember that, n the begining of the 9th, this knowledge was already practically extinct in western europe.

I’m not saying the Church is perfect. I’m not advocating belief and religion.
But, even as an atheist i have to acknowledge that, during the vast majority of our history, the christian religion has been, objectively, unarguably, a civlizing factor.

I will start to think we have “outgrown”, “outcivilized” it, when and only when we will have proven the fact that our current irreligion can not only bear some fruits on its own, but bear some sustainable fruits on its own.
And it is not the case, yet.

208

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
Species and cultures won’t go extinct tomorrow.
We are destroying them now.
And even ONE of these irreversible but avoidable events would be enough to make my point.
[/quote]

We are more aware and doing more for species at this point than any other in human history.

So by this token 2014 is far more moral from a species standpoint than any other time in human history.

See below: Ooops, we did such a good job of protecting that now we have some other issues. Again, you’re just speaking from the heart on stuff you want to believe and you won’t back off for some reason off your initial poor point.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2158676,00.html[/quote]

Oh brother. We are not more moral now than in the past. We have learned of methods to sanitize our evil to make it appear less evil than it once was. But it is still evil, even with a pretty face. Calling ‘evil things’ good and ‘good things’ evil, also does not make anything the case.

Man kind has certainly found new ways to prop up the evolutionary weak forces and make them live where in the past they may not have, but we also have to technology to completely wipe ourselves off the map, and we ain’t afraid to use it.
2014 has no moral advantage over the past.

And Kamui’s points are not good, they are excellent, it is you, using a centuries old debunked ontology of moral relativism who is speaking from a disadvantage. Using emotive language, declaring victory where you have none, and massacring historical facts has you speaking from a position of weakness. [/quote]

I never declared victory. The only people declaring victory ironically are the people who weren’t even in the discussion (you and Push). Why you both feel the need to drive around and declare a winner when Kamui and I are just discussing things is not just irrelevant, but it’s selfish on your guys part to think you’re high up enough that your opinion on who is winning or losing is giving an actual shit by either of us.

But, like Push I guess I will see things your way SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DECLARE SO.

Since you have 0 facts in your rebuttal and pure emotion (which is ironic to call out someone else’s emotion in your own emotion filled rant, but I digress) I will just say spare the people who were talking your unnecessary judgment.

Centuries old debunked, listen to yourself preach away and pretend your viewpoint is any better than anyone after a discussion in which you contributed nothing to. [/quote]

Is this a lesson in how to say nothing in 500 words or less? What was the point of this?
You’re wrong, and Kamui is right. Your not putting forth any facts, historical accuracy, or reason behind your posts, they are almost complete emotion. Your contention that secularism is more peaceful or would be a better way of life based on history and terrible acts of religion past just doesn’t pan out in reality.

209

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Years ago, I found the Encyclopedia of Wars at a book sale. Normally obscenely expensive but for $20 I could take it of the bookseller’s hands.
It chronicles over 1800 wars (fights, etc) up until the year 2003. It is NOT comprehensive but it’s a great work. From that work, and other more comprehensive sets one can deduce that religious wars/conflicts add up to less than 10% of all major conflicts in recorded history (one set claims that it is between 10-14%).

So to purport that religion is the root of most conflicts and wars is unsubstantiated. [/quote]

Yeah, I did some research on the topic, because of the accusations that religion is the chief reason for violence and war in the world and found the same result. It’s not even close. Religion is no where in the ball park in proportion to wars for secular reasons.

210

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

It wasn’t meant to be a history lesson nor a history discussion. I have largely been talking about America and was trying to maintain that consistency.

[/quote]

That’s fine, but I still think Roman and Greek history sort of pokes a couple holes in your assertion in refutation to Push.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue it further, so don’t pay me any mind. lol. [/quote]

The Romans were a warrior society who gloried in gladiatorial combat. Their favourite delicacy was roasted mice. The early days of the Republic were remembered as a better time but the Emperors were almost all evil. Vaspasian had a harem of toddlers who he molested in his personal bath. When he grew tired of them he had them thrown off a cliff. One of his victims was the insane Caligula who conspired with the Praetorian guard to have him murdered. Caligula had sex with his sister. One of his ‘jokes’ was to order the execution of a ‘friend’ and then inquire of his whereabouts.

Domitian massacred thousands of Christians and Jews for sport.

Septimius Severus murdered thousands more.

Diocletian organised mass tortures and executions of Christians in the Colosseum.

Nero’s crimes are too voluminous to mention. He eventually stabbed himself in the neck.

Caracalla heard that the Alexandrians had offended him in a play so he organised an army, traveled to Egypt and massacred 20,000 of them, pillaged and burned the city to the ground.

Commodus once ordered all the cripples in the city to be thrown into the arena and ordered them to hack themselves to death or be executed.

That’s just a taste of some of the Roman emperors. Time does not permit the recitation of the Greek’s crimes.

211

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Years ago, I found the Encyclopedia of Wars at a book sale. Normally obscenely expensive but for $20 I could take it of the bookseller’s hands.
It chronicles over 1800 wars (fights, etc) up until the year 2003. It is NOT comprehensive but it’s a great work. From that work, and other more comprehensive sets one can deduce that religious wars/conflicts add up to less than 10% of all major conflicts in recorded history (one set claims that it is between 10-14%).

So to purport that religion is the root of most conflicts and wars is unsubstantiated. [/quote]

Yeah, I did some research on the topic, because of the accusations that religion is the chief reason for violence and war in the world and found the same result. It’s not even close. Religion is no where in the ball park in proportion to wars for secular reasons. [/quote]

Yep. As Clausewitz so famously said, “war is a continuation of politics by other means.”

212

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Years ago, I found the Encyclopedia of Wars at a book sale. Normally obscenely expensive but for $20 I could take it of the bookseller’s hands.
It chronicles over 1800 wars (fights, etc) up until the year 2003. It is NOT comprehensive but it’s a great work. From that work, and other more comprehensive sets one can deduce that religious wars/conflicts add up to less than 10% of all major conflicts in recorded history (one set claims that it is between 10-14%).

So to purport that religion is the root of most conflicts and wars is unsubstantiated. [/quote]

Yeah, I did some research on the topic, because of the accusations that religion is the chief reason for violence and war in the world and found the same result. It’s not even close. Religion is no where in the ball park in proportion to wars for secular reasons. [/quote]

I disagree. Wars have been fought over religion since time immemorial. Whether the house of Judah fighting the Northern kingdom over the worship of foreign ‘gods’, to the Roman suppression of Jews and the early Christian church, to the wars of the Saracens, to the wars of the Protestants and Catholics, to the Spanish Inquisition. Who are we to say that it is not God’s will? The Canaanites were detestable and were ‘irrevocably’ given over to the Lord. The sins and excess of Sodom, Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon led to their annihilation. Who are we to say that religions are peaceful and should be so. I see no evidence of that in anything I’ve read.

‘So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon.’ - Joshua 10:40-41

213

I don’t mean to piss you off pat and I think you’re a nice guy, but you do realise that for centuries the Catholic Church fought a vicious war of annihilation over the Holy Roman Empire? Burning Protestants, taxing peasants till they starved? Do you have any idea where the wealth of the Catholic Church came from? Do you have any idea how high up the suppression of child abuse in Catholic institutions went?
If you want to answer these questions honestly go ahead. But I’m not interested in apologetics.

215

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I don’t mean to piss you off pat and I think you’re a nice guy, but you do realise that for centuries the Catholic Church fought a vicious war of annihilation over the Holy Roman Empire? Burning Protestants, taxing peasants till they starved? Do you have any idea where the wealth of the Catholic Church came from? Do you have any idea how high up the suppression of child abuse in Catholic institutions went?
If you want to answer these questions honestly go ahead. But I’m not interested in apologetics.[/quote]

We already know. That’s why we pray for the sins of the people of the Church.

216

[quote]espenl wrote:
A world without religion would be great, but it will not happen any time soon. Luckily I live in one of the worlds most secular countries. Meanwhile enjoy the good things like Bach and the Cologne Cathedral.[/quote]

You mean Bach the profoundly religious Lutheran? You mean the 8 century old Catholic cathedral and house of the archbishop of Cologne? Clearly you are a Norwegian.

217

[quote]Sloth wrote:

We already know. That’s why we pray for the sins of the people of the Church.
[/quote]

Fair answer. Respect gained.

218

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Who are we to say that it is not God’s will? [/quote]

For Christians? Christ. He sent out his apostles and disciples to die in his name, if it came to that. Not to kill in his name.

219

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

We already know. That’s why we pray for the sins of the people of the Church.
[/quote]

Fair answer. Respect gained.
[/quote]

Just an honest one. It is not all rare for us to pray for the sins of the Church (the people).

220

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Years ago, I found the Encyclopedia of Wars at a book sale. Normally obscenely expensive but for $20 I could take it of the bookseller’s hands.
It chronicles over 1800 wars (fights, etc) up until the year 2003. It is NOT comprehensive but it’s a great work. From that work, and other more comprehensive sets one can deduce that religious wars/conflicts add up to less than 10% of all major conflicts in recorded history (one set claims that it is between 10-14%).

So to purport that religion is the root of most conflicts and wars is unsubstantiated. [/quote]

Yeah, I did some research on the topic, because of the accusations that religion is the chief reason for violence and war in the world and found the same result. It’s not even close. Religion is no where in the ball park in proportion to wars for secular reasons. [/quote]

I disagree. Wars have been fought over religion since time immemorial. Whether the house of Judah fighting the Northern kingdom over the worship of foreign ‘gods’, to the Roman suppression of Jews and the early Christian church, to the wars of the Saracens, to the wars of the Protestants and Catholics, to the Spanish Inquisition. Who are we to say that it is not God’s will? The Canaanites were detestable and were ‘irrevocably’ given over to the Lord. The sins and excess of Sodom, Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon led to their annihilation. Who are we to say that religions are peaceful and should be so. I see no evidence of that in anything I’ve read.

‘So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon.’ - Joshua 10:40-41 [/quote]

I would say that many conflicts were exacerbated by religious difference, but religious differences were not the primary cause. Think of it as adding a bit of fuel to an already raging fire. Take the Roman wars against Judah. It’s clear that they were primarily caused by a wish to maintain Roman hegemony over its provinces in the face of separatists movements. The religious differences in that case were important, but still only intervening variables.