Get Off Your Asses You SOB's!!!!

[quote]Chewie wrote:
Well, I respect the fact you answered a direct question, unlike most people. I, too, would like to spread the peace message. That is, unfortunately, impossible at this time. Whether invading was a mistake or not (I see it as imperialism and occupying a a zone as a strategic military base), we are left in a difficult situation. What now? We can’t leave. It will be like the first time all over again. What would you recommend?[/quote]

That’s a tough question. I acknowledge the delicacy of the situation. Leaving Iraq will certainly be touted as a major victory for Ben Laden and his ilk. However, I believe that the Iraqi branch of Al-Qaeda will wither like alcohol in the sun once you leave. Probably not overnight, but quickly enough. Leaving Iraq will leave foreign Jihadis with absolutely no cause to stay in Iraq. The locals will kick them out because they’ll be of no use to them anymore.

Moreover, I like to think of it this way: You weren’t supposed to be there in the first place! If once you get out, you can provide me with sufficient proof that you are in immediate danger if you don’t attack Iraq, I’ll give you a break.

It’s a hypothetical grandson. In real life, I don’t plan on having kids to reduce my ecological footprint. I know it’s kinda extreme, but I believe it’s way too crowded as it is. But that’s another story…

[quote]Chewie wrote:
So, you are saying there are absolutely no terrorists in Iraq?
[/quote]

Of course there are. But in the grand scheme of things, they are a tiny fraction of the “insurgency”.

Terrorists exist everywhere. Britain’s got boatloads of them. Is that reason to pre-emptively attack London?

If you’re really interested in fighting terrorism, you’d be focusing on Pakistan and Waziristan. Ben Laden himself is very likely to be over there. There are a LOT more Islamist zealots in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia than in the rest of the world combined. Yet, you invoke terror as rationale of your presence in Iraq. Sorry, it doesn’t fly.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chewie wrote:
That’s a tough question. I acknowledge the delicacy of the situation. Leaving Iraq will certainly be touted as a major victory for Ben Laden and his ilk. However, I believe that the Iraqi branch of Al-Qaeda will wither like alcohol in the sun once you leave. Probably not overnight, but quickly enough. Leaving Iraq will leave foreign Jihadis with absolutely no cause to stay in Iraq. The locals will kick them out because they’ll be of no use to them anymore.
[/quote]
You just supported my point. When we leave, they leave and get stronger. When we stay, we fight them on their own soil instead of our own. Yes, it is a very delicate situation and, I agree there is no good way to solve it.

Immediate? Possibly. Who can say?

My concern is what will happen when we leave?

I was joking there. :wink:

[quote]lixy wrote:
… In real life, I don’t plan on having kids to reduce my ecological footprint. I know it’s kinda extreme, but I believe it’s way too crowded as it is. But that’s another story…

[/quote]

Best idea I have heard from you yet. I wish you luck with this.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Also I sat dumbfounded as my fellow Americans allowed our constitutional principles crumble to feel safer about the threat of “terror”

Times change and situations change. Our Constitutional Rights are going to be just fine. Things get ammended, but we evolve as needed.

While you are sitting watching at this point, you still don’t believe there is a threat. It will take some more attacks on our own soil or maybe in your own hood for you to feel the “threat” and acknowledge something needs to be done…right?

Stay in the perfect concept of your own la la land…safe…sleepy nappy time.

What a brilliant reply. Of course there is a level of threat. There always has been and always will be. People think that if they concede all of their rights to privacy that it will make the country uber safe.

There will always be terror as long as there is tyranny—know that. You do realize that your rights have dramatically changed under this adminstration don’t you? Or is it going to take an example on your won soil, in your own hood to shake you from la-la land?[/quote]

Again, I stated that we are there for imperial reasons. Also, we now have a strategic point for fighting terrorists. Now they are fighting our armed military instead of our unarmed civilians.

We have found ourselves in a very bad situation. We cannot leave now.

Do you think we should just get up and go home? I want to see what you are planning to do? If you have a better option, lay it down.

Yes, our rights have changed, drastically. Unfortunately, this is the price we have to pay.

[quote]Chewie wrote:
Yes, our rights have changed, drastically. Unfortunately, this is the price we have to pay.
[/quote]

Rights on paper. Please tell me, anyone, where they have been denied any rights, teated badly by Gov. or have been personally affected by the Patriot Act?

Anyone?

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Chewie wrote:
Yes, our rights have changed, drastically. Unfortunately, this is the price we have to pay.

Rights on paper. Please tell me, anyone, where they have been denied any rights, teated badly by Gov. or have been personally affected by the Patriot Act?

Anyone?[/quote]

Here is a recent article on the Korey Rowe incident(he was involved with the Loose Change outfit) and while this will surely be shrugged off as not having a direct link, this is where the harassment and bending of the law starts. Unfortunately, its not good enough that the laws set the stage for abuse, it is going to take someone that you are close to being harassed or jailed for it to sink in.

"Korey Rowe, 24, who served with the 101st Airborne in Afghanistan and Iraq, told FOXNews.com that he was honorably discharged from the military 18 months ago �?? which he said he explained to sheriffs when they pounded on his door late Monday night.

�??When they came to my house, I showed them my paperwork,�?? Rowe said. �??The cops said, 'You�??re still in the system.'�??

Rowe was turned over to officials at Fort Drum �?? the closest military base �?? who then booked him on a flight to Fort Campbell, Ky., where his unit is based, to try to straighten out why the military issued a warrant for his arrest.

�??A warrant for my arrest came down and showed up on the sheriff�??s desk,�?? Rowe said. �??Where it came from and why it showed up all of a sudden is a mystery to me.�??

Rowe said he was sitting in his living room watching the show �??Cops�?? and drinking a beer Monday night when police banged on the door.

�??I thought it was the TV,�?? he said. �??There was f-----g mad cops out there. I thought, here we go.�??

There were at least five sheriffs on hand for his arrest, Rowe said. They told him he had an active-duty warrant from the military.

�??They pulled a whole operation. They cut my phone lines. They came from the woods. It was crazy �?? it was ridiculous,�?? he said.

Rowe shared further details with us about the sequence of events than is revealed in the Fox News article.

According to Rowe, Army officials at Fort Drum, where Rowe was held for a day and a half, seemed uninterested in the case until their phone lines were incinerated by a barrage of calls from listeners who responded to our call to action yesterday morning.

It was at that point that officials checked into Rowe’s record and immediately confirmed that he had received an honorable discharge and told Rowe he was free to leave, and even offered to pay his way to get back to New York. They were baffled as to why a warrant would be out for his arrest when he had clearly been given permission to leave the Army in 2005."

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Chewie wrote:
Yes, our rights have changed, drastically. Unfortunately, this is the price we have to pay.

Rights on paper. Please tell me, anyone, where they have been denied any rights, teated badly by Gov. or have been personally affected by the Patriot Act?

Anyone?

Here is a recent article on the Korey Rowe incident
[/quote]

It looks like the isue was looked into and resolved. What’s the problem?

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Chewie wrote:
Yes, our rights have changed, drastically. Unfortunately, this is the price we have to pay.

Rights on paper. Please tell me, anyone, where they have been denied any rights, teated badly by Gov. or have been personally affected by the Patriot Act?

Anyone?[/quote]

Here’s another one:

Report on USA Patriot Act Alleges Civil Rights Violations

By Phililp Shenon
The New York Times
July 21, 2003.

WASHINGTON, July 20 �?? A report by internal investigators at the Justice Department has identified dozens of recent cases in which department employees have been accused of serious civil rights and civil liberties violations involving enforcement of the sweeping federal antiterrorism law known as the USA Patriot Act.

The inspector general’s report, which was presented to Congress last week and is awaiting public release, is likely to raise new concern among lawmakers about whether the Justice Department can police itself when its employees are accused of violating the rights of Muslim and Arab immigrants and others swept up in terrorism investigations under the 2001 law.

The report said that in the six-month period that ended on June 15, the inspector general’s office had received 34 complaints of civil rights and civil liberties violations by department employees that it considered credible, including accusations that Muslim and Arab immigrants in federal detention centers had been beaten.

The accused workers are employed in several of the agencies that make up the Justice Department, with most of them assigned to the Bureau of Prisons, which oversees federal penitentiaries and detention centers.

The report said that credible accusations were also made against employees of the F.B.I., the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Immigration and Naturalization Service; most of the immigration agency was consolidated earlier this year into the Department of Homeland Security.

A spokeswoman for the Justice Department, Barbara Comstock, said tonight that the department “takes its obligations very seriously to protect civil rights and civil liberties, and the small number of credible allegations will be thoroughly investigated.”

Ms. Comstock noted that the department was continuing to review accusations made last month in a separate report by the inspector general, Glenn A. Fine, that found broader problems in the department’s treatment of hundreds of illegal immigrants rounded up after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

While most of the accusations in the report are still under investigation, the report said a handful had been substantiated, including those against a federal prison doctor who was reprimanded after reportedly telling an inmate during a physical examination that “if I was in charge, I would execute every one of you” because of “the crimes you all did.”

The report did not otherwise identify the doctor or name the federal detention center where he worked. The doctor, it said, had “allegedly treated other inmates in a cruel and unprofessional manner.”

The report said that the inspector general’s office was continuing to investigate a separate case in which about 20 inmates at a federal detention center, which was not identified, had recently accused a corrections officer of abusive behavior, including ordering a Muslim inmate to remove his shirt “so the officer could use it to shine his shoes.”

In that case, the report said, the inspector general’s office was able to obtain a statement from the officer admitting that he had verbally abused the Muslim inmate and that he had been “less that completely candid” with internal investigators from the Bureau of Prisons. The inspector general’s office said it had also obtained a sworn statement from another prison worker confirming the inmates’ accusations.

The report did not directly criticize the Bureau of Prisons for its handling of an earlier internal investigation of the officer, but the report noted that the earlier inquiry had been closed �?? and the accused officer initially cleared �?? without anyone interviewing the inmates or the officer.

The report is the second in recent weeks from the inspector general to focus on the way the Justice Department is carrying out the broad new surveillance and detention powers it gained under the Patriot Act, which was passed by Congress a month after the 9/11 attacks.

In the first report, which was made public on June 2, Mr. Fine, whose job is to act as the department’s internal watchdog, found that hundreds of illegal immigrants had been mistreated after they were detained following the attacks.

That report found that many inmates languished in unduly harsh conditions for months, and that the department had made little effort to distinguish legitimate terrorist suspects from others picked up in roundups of illegal immigrants.

The first report brought widespread, bipartisan criticism of the Justice Department, which defended its conduct at the time, saying that it “made no apologies for finding every legal way possible to protect the American public from further attacks.”

Ms. Comstock, the spokeswoman, said tonight that the department had been sensitive to concerns about civil rights and civil liberties after the 9/11 attacks, and that the department had been aggressive in investigating more that 500 cases of complaints of ethnic “hate crimes” linked to backlash from the attacks.

“We’ve had 13 federal prosecutions of 18 defendants to date, with a 100 percent conviction rate,” she said. “We have a very aggressive effort against post-9/11 discrimination.”

A copy of the report, which was dated July 17 and provided to the House and Senate Judiciary Committees, was made available to The New York Times by the office of Representative John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, the ranking Democrat on the House panel.

“This report shows that we have only begun to scratch the surface with respect to the Justice Department’s disregard of constitutional rights and civil liberties,” Mr. Conyers said in a statement. "I commend the inspector general for having the courage and independence to highlight the degree to which the administration’s war on terror has misfired and harmed innocent victims with no ties to terror whatsoever.`

The report is Mr. Fine’s evaluation of his efforts to enforce provisions of the Patriot Act that require his office to investigate complaints of abuses of civil rights and civil liberties by Justice Department employees. The provision was inserted into the law by members of Congress who said they feared that the Patriot Act might lead to widespread law enforcement abuses.

The report draws no broad conclusions about the extent of abuses by Justice Department employees, although it suggests that the relatively small staff of the inspector general’s office has been overwhelmed by accusations of abuse, many filed by Muslim or Arab inmates in federal detention centers.

The inspector general said that from Dec. 16 through June 15, his office received 1,073 complaints “suggesting a Patriot Act-related” abuse of civil rights or civil liberties.

The report suggested that hundreds of the accusations were easily dismissed as not credible or impossible to prove. But of the remainder, 272 were determined to fall within the inspector general’s jurisdiction, with 34 raising “credible Patriot Act violations on their face.”

In those 34 cases, it said, the accusations “ranged in seriousness from alleged beatings of immigration detainees to B.O.P. correctional officers allegedly verbally abusing inmates.”

The report said that two of the cases were referred to internal investigators at the Federal Bureau of Investigation because they involved bureau employees. In one case, the report said, the bureau investigated �?? and determined to be unsubstantiated �?? a complaint that an F.B.I. agent had “displayed aggressive, hostile and demeaning behavior while administering a pre-employment polygraph examination.”

The report said that the second case involved accusations from a naturalized citizen of Lebanese descent that the F.B.I. had invaded his home based on false information and wrongly accused him of possessing an AK-47 rifle. That case, it said, is still under investigation by the bureau.

© 2003 The New York Times Company

and a little more…

Myth: �??Underthe Patriot Act, I�??m very confident in saying there have been no abuses found.�?? [1]

Reality: The Patriot Act has been abused. The ACLU detailed these abuses in a 10-page letter to Senator Dianne Feinstein, dated April 4, 2005.

Brandon Mayfield is a Portland, Oregon resident who is a convert to Islam and an attorney. Mayfield was wrongly accused by the government of involvement in the Madrid bombing as a result of evidence, including mistaken fingerprint identification, that fell apart after the FBI re-examined its case following its arrest and detention on Mayfield on a material witness warrant. Attorney General Gonzales acknowledged before the Senate Judiciary Committee that Section 218 of the Patriot Act was implicated in the secret search of Mayfield�??s house. FBI admitted that it entered Mayfield�??s house without a warrant based on criminal probable cause and copied four computer drives, digitally photographed sever documents, seized ten DNA samples and took approximately 335 digital photographs of Brandon Mayfield�??s home.
Tariq Ramadan is regarded by many as Europe�??s leading moderate Muslim intellectuals. Time Magazine named Ramadan among the Top 100 Innovators of the 21st Century. The government revoked Ramadan�??s visa to teach at the University of Notre Dame under Section 411 of the Patriot Act, which permits the government to exclude non-citizens from the country if in the government�??s view they have �??used [their] position of prominence to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or to persuade others to support terrorist activity.�?? Consequently, an individual who discusses politics that a terrorist organization may adopt as its own viewpoints may be excluded from the United States, even if the individual does not support terrorist activity. As such, the government can essentially use this provision to deny admission to those whose political views it disfavors. There is no doubt that Ramadan uses his position of prominence to espouse his political beliefs. Notably, Ramadan, who denounces the use of violence in the name of Islam, had already been granted a visa after undergoing an extensive security clearance process and had previously been permitted to enter the country on numerous
A number of other examples are also listed in the ACLU�??s letter. The Justice Department largely confirmed the substance of these examples in its response to the ACLU letter, dated April 26, 2005, while denying that the examples listed were �??abuses.�?? The Office of Inspector General of the Department of Justice is actively investigating the Brandon Mayfield case.

The extent of Patriot Act abuse is still unknown because of excessive secrecy enshrouding its use. For example, both special document FBI document snoop orders, called �??national security letters,�?? (expanded by section 505 of the Patriot Act) and Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) document orders (expanded by section 215 of the Act), include permanent �??gag�?? provisions. These automatic secrecy orders prohibit recipients from telling anyone they have received the order or letter to produce documents that include their customers�?? private information

You provide data from the ACLU??? LOL!

[quote]Chewie wrote:
You just supported my point. When we leave, they leave and get stronger. When we stay, we fight them on their own soil instead of our own. Yes, it is a very delicate situation and, I agree there is no good way to solve it. [/quote]

No. You’re fighting them on Iraqi soil. Most of Al-Qaeda in Iraq is composed of foreigners. It’s been speculated that as much as half of them are Saudis.

I’ll ask again, what’s the sin of the Iraqis to endure all this? Don’t you think they might get pissed (and legitimately so), when you say such things as you are “fighting Al-Qaeda on their own soil”. Iraqis know that there was virtually no Al-Qaeda in their country prior to the invasion.

[quote]Immediate? Possibly. Who can say?

My concern is what will happen when we leave? [/quote]

Who can say? The burden of proof lies on the one using force. If I kick you in the nuts and you take me to any court (anywhere in the world), I’ll get convicted unless I can prove “beyond the shadow of a doubt” that I was defending myself. If I can’t prove that, then I should refrain from using violence. What your darling Bush have done, is convince you that you’re in immediate danger when the whole world can clearly see that it’s just a pretext. Get over it. We are all in danger of being attacked by terrorists. I am a Muslim, and those bastard wouldn’t hesitate to cut my throat if they had a chance (something they like to call Takfirism). Yet, you don’t see me (or anyone else for that matter) around dangling weapons and aggressing every person we think-maybe-might-be-able-to harm us.

What’s so hard to understand about that?

[quote]Chewie wrote:
We have found ourselves in a very bad situation. [/quote]

Gotta love that wording.

We woke up one morning and found ourselves in Iraq.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
You provide data from the ACLU??? LOL![/quote]

and two other sources

[quote]lixy wrote:
…It’s a hypothetical grandson. In real life, I don’t plan on having kids to reduce my ecological footprint. I know it’s kinda extreme, but I believe it’s way too crowded as it is. But that’s another story…

[/quote]

Allah be praised!

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chewie wrote:
I’ll ask again, what’s the sin of the Iraqis to endure all this?
[/quote]
I stated previously that we were there for imperial/strategical reasons. Now we are supporting/training the Iraqi Army.

The sin was initially the dictator. We took care of that. Yes, the WMD card can be argued all day long.

I agree this point. However, if we get up and leave now, who will come in? Who will take over Iraq?

Rockscar, one thing to think about, with respect to civil liberties, is that the changes put in place today will be there for our grandchildren.

So, while you may trust the Bush administration with this power, who’s to say someone else won’t come along in a couple of decades and abuse these additional powers at the expense of the citizens.

Aspects of the changes are reasonable and effective, while others are too wide open and easy to abuse. Just as gun owners are paranoid about small changes leading to big results over time, the same stance should be taken with rights.

[quote]vroom wrote:

So, while you may trust the Bush administration with this power, who’s to say someone else won’t come along in a couple of decades and abuse these additional powers at the expense of the citizens.

Aspects of the changes are reasonable and effective, while others are too wide open and easy to abuse. Just as gun owners are paranoid about small changes leading to big results over time, the same stance should be taken with rights.[/quote]

This is why I was then and am today against that ill conceived “Patriot Act” piece of crap. Power attracts the corruptable, and they use it to further their own agenda. When our government tells us that we lose some civil liberties to protect us… I say that’s bullshit. And I do not trust Bush. At all.

[quote]Chewie wrote:
The sin was initially the dictator. We took care of that. Yes, the WMD card can be argued all day long. [/quote]

Here’s where it doesn’t add up: You supported that very dictator throughout much of the 80’s. A quick look at the staggering number of dictators - past and present - directly supported by the US invalidates you theory.

I don’t understand how that idea is still entertained by some. The US actively supported some of the bloodiest tyrants the 20th century has seen.

I don’t know who’ll take over the place. There are quite a few scenarios possible:

  • It might break into little blobs of lands. Sunnis, Shi’ites and Kurds each getting their own government.

  • A dictator may show up and rule with an iron fist to keep the integrity of the country.

  • In case fair and transparent elections are held (Many large parties are boycotting the elections because of your presence on their soil), the Shi’ite will definitely get the lion share. The government will then naturally ally itself with the Iranians.

I don’t think Islamists (read Al-Qaeda) have any chance of getting to power there. There is indeed no grassroots movement large enough that may suggest the feasibility of such scenario. I find it extremely odd that educated Americans entertain the idea. It’s been stated so often that people end up believing it.

Anyway, I believe in the right of self-determination. That is, letting the Iraqis decide what they want their future to look like. Your administration however, has a wicked definition of democracy as applied to others.

For Washington, a democracy only works when the outcome of the ballots is in their favor. So, when Bush or Rice talks about “bringing democracy to the M.E.”, what I hear is “putting regimes we like by force if necessary”.

It’s refreshing to have a pragmatic right-winger on this forum. Most of the people from your side of the political spectrum seem to live in fairyland and very few of them would be caught dead admitting the imperialist trait of the current war. It makes conversation really dull. Thank you for enriching the debate.

/lixy

You always hear the whiners start crying “Bush bots!” whenever real patriots speak out about smashing these 6th century throwbacks into the ground. Ultimately, it has nothing to do with
George Bush or neocons or any of that crap. Patton would probably
piss on many of the Bush administration’s actions.

There are still some guys around with Patton’s sensibility. Too bad they get drowned out by cowards and apologists.