[quote]jsbrook wrote:
But I think it’s genearally true with Asian. [/quote]
Fixed. Hispanics have shown horrible assimilation-success vs demographic growth. This is a population with terrible socio-economic stats, which is also the largest minority, and trending towards a future majority. Not a great scenario. Sorry, diversity for diversity’s sake can take a leap.
[quote]FattyFat wrote:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
The Germans just choose not to give citizenship to foreigners so that if they ever decide these people don’t belong in their home they can tell them to leave. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea to do that but it is their right to decide who is family and has a right to stay in their home.
[/quote]
That’s not true.
Actually, it’s kinda easy to get German citizenship. I’m not saying, though, that acquring German citizenship is tantamount to being integrated.
As a tangential:
what makes me cringe are immigrants who shit on Germans, German culture and Germany, but still apply for German citizenship for benefits’ sake. I’ve seen and experienced this stance from Muslims, primarily. It’s also funny to note how tolerant Germany is towards Muslims (and other religions, for that matter), whereas other religions aren’t always well liked in ‘Muslim’ countries.
For contextual info:
I’m an agnostic German having grown up in multi-cultural surroundings and thankful for that. And some of my friends are Muslims. I’m not against Muslims, it’s just that Islam + lack of education tends to bring out the worst in a person. The same goes for other religions + lack of education, but not to the extent it does with Islam. Mind you, I’m talking out of my own experience, so it’s rather a subjective view.
[/quote]
It was my understanding that it wasn’t all that easy to get German citizenship. Which is the reason why there are Turks who have been living there for generations who don’t have citizenship. It can’t be as easy as the British system used to be where they awarded citizenship to immigrants before they got on the boat to the UK giving them absolutely no incentive to assimilate.
Benefits abuse is one of the biggest problems facing Europe. Leftist politicians have found that they can import a new constituency for themselves that is locked into voting for them because they are totally dependent upon handouts. This also why if anyone brings up the subject they are immediately met with howls of racism, references to the Nazis, cattle cars and death threats. It is a sad fact that in Europe the assassination of politicians and journalists has become an accepted part of the political landscape.
A lack of education is not what brings the worst out of muslims. That is an absolute falsehood that has no basis in fact. That is a blatant lie that was fabricated to mollify people into thinking that the problem has a solution that is simple and readily available so they won’t consider practical solutions that are guaranteed to work. In reality the exact opposite is true, there is a high level of radicalization amongst the college educated and institutes of higher learning are a site of radicalization.
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
sifu - while advances in medical field may increase longevity and allow one to stay active longer (although in France they are rioting right now protesting the increase in retirement age from 60 to 62 lol) - low birthrates in western countries is a very real problem.
Check out Buchanan’s “The Death of The West” - he ain’t no Marxist I’ll tell you that much.
Yes, just like any other real issue, it can be used as an excuse to promote all sorts of agendas, but the underlying problem is there and can’t be denied.
[/quote]
The low birthrates would be a manageable problem if it were not happening in combination with mass immigration. The irony of it of course is that women stand to lose the most from what is happening. But they are the ones who are not having enough children to stop themselves from getting forced back into a more traditional role. Family planning is going to be the death of woman’s liberation.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I just have to know what Orion thinks on this issue…Orion?..Orion?
U Mad?[/quote]
I think that the idea of a multicultural society was doomed from the start.
What some people in Europe do not seem able to grasp is that culture runs deeper than exotic foods and fancy, colorful clothes.
We cannot co-exist with honor killings, blood feuds or the attempts to establish a theocracy, at best we could give up our own culture and I dont see that happening.
Statistically speaking immigrants are both higher educated and lower educated than the average population. So we do have second generation immigrants that do far better than average and at the same time immigrants who are not able to get an education and/or hold down a job.
When times get just a little bit rougher and the strain on the welfare system gets to great we will live in interesting times.
The thing is, despite what people might try to do to “preserve a culture”, culture changes regardless of whether or not immigrants move into the country or not. Culture is a manifestation of ideology – and to a larger extent – language itself. Culture changes as ideas change.
I think the real discussion is not whether a particular culture should be preserved but rather what ideas are worth preserving in that culture?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I just have to know what Orion thinks on this issue…Orion?..Orion?
U Mad?[/quote]
I think that the idea of a multicultural society was doomed from the start.
What some people in Europe do not seem able to grasp is that culture runs deeper than exotic foods and fancy, colorful clothes.
We cannot co-exist with honor killings, blood feuds or the attempts to establish a theocracy, at best we could give up our own culture and I dont see that happening.
Statistically speaking immigrants are both higher educated and lower educated than the average population. So we do have second generation immigrants that do far better than average and at the same time immigrants who are not able to get an education and/or hold down a job.
When times get just a little bit rougher and the strain on the welfare system gets to great we will live in interesting times.
[/quote]
So you are saying immigration bad, Islam immigrants bad?
And Immigrants are both highly educated, and poorly educated? Is it exactly 50/50?
I thought you were the one telling us in the Immigration BS thread that we were RACYSSS and needed to be more open to our friends from the South?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I just have to know what Orion thinks on this issue…Orion?..Orion?
U Mad?[/quote]
I think that the idea of a multicultural society was doomed from the start.
What some people in Europe do not seem able to grasp is that culture runs deeper than exotic foods and fancy, colorful clothes.
We cannot co-exist with honor killings, blood feuds or the attempts to establish a theocracy, at best we could give up our own culture and I dont see that happening.
Statistically speaking immigrants are both higher educated and lower educated than the average population. So we do have second generation immigrants that do far better than average and at the same time immigrants who are not able to get an education and/or hold down a job.
When times get just a little bit rougher and the strain on the welfare system gets to great we will live in interesting times.
[/quote]
Something else that people in Europe and the US are not grasping is that immigration and socialism are not a good mix. All the giveaways that the socialist systems in Europe provide cost money. That money is generated through higher taxes. Those higher taxes greatly reduce the ability of immigrants to save up money.
Societies in Europe have much less upward mobility than the US. Europe does not do entrepreneurship like the US. So if you are a college educated immigrant you do have some chance of getting a good paying job. But if you are uneducated you will either go on welfare or or do menial labor but you are not easily going to climb out of that because of all the taxes.
In the US if you are an unskilled immigrant you can still work 2,3 or 4 jobs and save up a nest egg that you use to start your own business or send your kids to college. In America there are a lot of immigrants who have started with nothing and made something of themselves. In Europe the system prevents that.
as a teacher in one of the most multicultural and diversly populated area of France, the majority of my students are second or third generation immigrants.
i have had classes with exactly 0 “native french” students.
it’s obviously abnormal. and only the most naive or perverse would think otherwise.
that being said, most of them doesn’t identify or oppose themselves based on their origins, their races or their religions.
it’s not “muslims vs christians”
or “black vs arabs vs whites”
it’s Trappes vs Elancourt vs Maurepas. Town vs Town.
it’s “le quartier des sept mares” vs some other block.
the right give them a nationalist answer
the left give them a “humanist” answer
both answers will fail because they are too abstracts.
we have to rethink the whole issue on a local basis and on a regional scale.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I just have to know what Orion thinks on this issue…Orion?..Orion?
U Mad?[/quote]
I think that the idea of a multicultural society was doomed from the start.
What some people in Europe do not seem able to grasp is that culture runs deeper than exotic foods and fancy, colorful clothes.
We cannot co-exist with honor killings, blood feuds or the attempts to establish a theocracy, at best we could give up our own culture and I dont see that happening.
Statistically speaking immigrants are both higher educated and lower educated than the average population. So we do have second generation immigrants that do far better than average and at the same time immigrants who are not able to get an education and/or hold down a job.
When times get just a little bit rougher and the strain on the welfare system gets to great we will live in interesting times.
[/quote]
So you are saying immigration bad, Islam immigrants bad?
And Immigrants are both highly educated, and poorly educated? Is it exactly 50/50?
I thought you were the one telling us in the Immigration BS thread that we were RACYSSS and needed to be more open to our friends from the South?[/quote]
At least in Austria we probably have more immigrants than you do, especially in Vienna.
And no, neither immigration nor Islam bad per se, but Anatolian goat herders whose archaic customs are inextricably intertwined with Islam very bad.
The main problem that we have is that we have a welfare system that turns everything into a zero sum game and the less there is, the fiercer the competition will get.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Something that needs to be kept in mind is that the perspective vis-a-vis the Americas and Europe is very different when it comes to mass immigration. Europe is only now experiencing something that America went through several hundred years ago. If several hundred years ago some American Indians had said all these white people moving here is not going to be good for us and done something about it they wouldn’t be where they are now.
Americans didn’t start out as a melting pot where they assimilated into the indigenous culture. They set up a separate culture that could not have survived without the kindness and help of the indigenous people. The Pilgrims who came off of the Mayflower were dying until the American Indians discovered them, took pity on them and taught them how to live off of the land.
It is easier for people to assimilate into American culture because people know it is something new and is not related to a specific race or ethnicity. Another thing to bear in mind is the much touted American melting pot was for most of this countries history a melting pot of European Christians. We didn’t have the widely disparate ethnicity’s that the Europeans are trying to combine.[/quote]
Bloody hell mate, I agree with you for once. Great point
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
This is a growing sentiment. I have always believed in the melting pot, however, as of late, immigrants are not assimilating to the host country like in earlier years. The more a country allows new cultures and languages without some sort of standard to it’s own origins, it ceases to exist.
Europe is seeing what this is doing to their countries. In their case it is the Ideology of Islam, and the unwillingness of them to 'join in".
This is encouraging on one end, but discouraging on another. I like the fact that countries are finally seeing that being PC only gets them muzzled in the end. The scary part is that this is going to be a large racial issue in Europe.
One question should be asked for all those who believe in open immigration. Do you want immigrants to embrace your country, its values and culture when they come? Or do you want them here just in the name of Diversity?
I wish we could live in Utopia, but that is truly a fantasy. Some mixes of people/society/Laws/Religion simply don’t allow for it. Oil does not mix with water. When will we truly understand this as more of a scientific calculation instead of a “racist” viewpoint?
[/quote]
Hang on there buddy. I lived in Germany for many years and the simple truth about this whole affair?
Multiculturalism = segregation
Simple as that. The Germans were all about preserving whatever culture you had, and you got to stay in your own little ghetto. There were, for instance, generations of Turks who had never been back to Turkey and were still considered to be “foreign nationals”. Integration as in the US, which Europeans deplore as being insensitive, is the ethical way to treat your immigrants.
Note: That in the US, several suspected Islamic terrorists have been turned in by their own families, as Fareed Zakaria as pointed out. This makes the US quite the exception to European-style Islamists. Why? Because US Muslims are pretty well integrated and know darn good and well that Bob down the street is not a devil. Compare this with, say Algerian immigrants who have been crammed in the same neighborhood with no job for 20 years and rarely get to talk with a French person – who patronizes them ceaselessly.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
This is a growing sentiment. I have always believed in the melting pot, however, as of late, immigrants are not assimilating to the host country like in earlier years. The more a country allows new cultures and languages without some sort of standard to it’s own origins, it ceases to exist.
Europe is seeing what this is doing to their countries. In their case it is the Ideology of Islam, and the unwillingness of them to 'join in".
This is encouraging on one end, but discouraging on another. I like the fact that countries are finally seeing that being PC only gets them muzzled in the end. The scary part is that this is going to be a large racial issue in Europe.
One question should be asked for all those who believe in open immigration. Do you want immigrants to embrace your country, its values and culture when they come? Or do you want them here just in the name of Diversity?
I wish we could live in Utopia, but that is truly a fantasy. Some mixes of people/society/Laws/Religion simply don’t allow for it. Oil does not mix with water. When will we truly understand this as more of a scientific calculation instead of a “racist” viewpoint?
[/quote]
Hang on there buddy. I lived in Germany for many years and the simple truth about this whole affair?
Multiculturalism = segregation
Simple as that. The Germans were all about preserving whatever culture you had, and you got to stay in your own little ghetto. There were, for instance, generations of Turks who had never been back to Turkey and were still considered to be “foreign nationals”. Integration as in the US, which Europeans deplore as being insensitive, is the ethical way to treat your immigrants.
Note: That in the US, several suspected Islamic terrorists have been turned in by their own families, as Fareed Zakaria as pointed out. This makes the US quite the exception to European-style Islamists. Why? Because US Muslims are pretty well integrated and know darn good and well that Bob down the street is not a devil. Compare this with, say Algerian immigrants who have been crammed in the same neighborhood with no job for 20 years and rarely get to talk with a French person – who patronizes them ceaselessly.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
– jj[/quote]
Not sure about your equation, but yes, you’re certainly not full of shit with regards to segregated existences.
Makkun
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
…
Multiculturalism = segregation
…
– jj[/quote]
Absolutely. Integration into society is the opposite of multiculturalism.
What exactly is American culture?
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
What exactly is American culture? [/quote]
Depends on the region.
You know how there is like Argentine culture, and it only really started in the early 1900s? There is an American equivalent to that,