Georgia and Russia Going to War?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Sloth wrote:
msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
hedo wrote:
The US would have to decide where to draw the line and the stakes aren’t high enough yet.

We do? Why? Let the Europeans handle it.

And if they fail?

Then they fail, obviously.

A world of China, Russia, and the US would suck. How bout some friendlies.

I’m down with a defense alliance including Canada and Mexico. They’re actually on our borders, at least.[/quote]

And I suppose if our “friends” are like some of the euros here, who cares if they fail LOL

82

[quote]msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
hedo wrote:
The US would have to decide where to draw the line and the stakes aren’t high enough yet.

We do? Why? Let the Europeans handle it.

And if they fail?

Then they fail, obviously.

A world of China, Russia, and the US would suck. How bout some friendlies.

I’m down with a defense alliance including Canada and Mexico. They’re actually on our borders, at least.

And I suppose if our “friends” are like some of the euros here, who cares if they fail LOL[/quote]

Wouldn’t want to pre-emptively attack a Russia or China, that’s hasn’t attacked us, after all.

83

[quote]Sloth wrote:
msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
msd0060 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
hedo wrote:
The US would have to decide where to draw the line and the stakes aren’t high enough yet.

We do? Why? Let the Europeans handle it.

And if they fail?

Then they fail, obviously.

A world of China, Russia, and the US would suck. How bout some friendlies.

I’m down with a defense alliance including Canada and Mexico. They’re actually on our borders, at least.[/quote]

It’s only a matter of time before we have the North American union.

84

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Stratfor: Russia defeated US, not Georgian army in South Ossetia

[/quote]

lol

85

[quote]lixy wrote:
From many of these posts, I sense a lot of hatred towards Russians in general.

What’s up with that?[/quote]

Where is your anger towards them you phony piece of shit?

86

Medvedev just called off his dogs.

Russians can go back to their peacekeeping, Ossetians are ever more grateful to Moscow, Sakaashvili needs to explain to his people where his poor judgment came from and the prospect of Georgia getting into NATO is evaporating.

87

The whole conflict smells of hypocrisy, the Russians supported the Serbs fighting against the Kosovar Albanians separatists, and the United States backed the Albanian separatists completely ignoring the territorial integrity of then Yugoslavia, now Serbia.

They bombed Serbia for what was it like 90 days and recently gave Kosovo independence. Now they are telling the Russians that the Russians are a threat to democracy because they arent respecting the territorial integrity of a “democratic country”.

88

[quote]typerr wrote:
The whole conflict smells of hypocrisy, …[/quote]

Welcome to the real world.

89

[quote]typerr wrote:
The whole conflict smells of hypocrisy, the Russians supported the Serbs fighting against the Kosovar Albanians separatists, and the United States backed the Albanian separatists completely ignoring the territorial integrity of then Yugoslavia, now Serbia.

They bombed Serbia for what was it like 90 days and recently gave Kosovo independence. Now they are telling the Russians that the Russians are a threat to democracy because they arent respecting the territorial integrity of a “democratic country”.[/quote]

Yes. But ask the Kurds, Lebanese Christians, Chaldeans, south Vietnamese, or Serbs what our support is worth anyway. If you have our support, you will soon be a refugee.

Thanks to our backing of Islamic separatists in Kosovo, there’s nothing we can say to the Ossetians if they want to secede, or the Mexicans in our own country, for that matter.

Bush and Rice seldom do the right thing. At least our allies can expect that.

90

[quote]lixy wrote:
From many of these posts, I sense a lot of hatred towards Russians in general.

What’s up with that?[/quote]

It’s not hatred, but it’s massive distrust tempered with that ominously autocratic leader of theirs.

Hell, I like Russians. I enjoy vodka, and just got one of the best lap dances I’ve ever had from a gorgeous blond Russian chick the other night.

However, it is well known the effects of nationalism upon countries who are take great falls from grace in the eyes of the world as far as power goes. People will believe anything to make their economy better and increase their standing in the world. The Russians are in that stage right now- trying to rebound from the fallout of the Cold War.

As they rise, no one in America will be surprised if they become increasingly nationalistic and aggressive, and that can be a very dangerous thing for Europe and the United States. Say what you want about cowardly Europe, but it is filled with democracies. We cannot let them be threatened by a just-now reawakening Russian bear.

91

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
lixy wrote:
From many of these posts, I sense a lot of hatred towards Russians in general.

What’s up with that?

It’s not hatred, but it’s massive distrust tempered with that ominously autocratic leader of theirs. [/quote]

Leaders come and go. And in the case of Medvedev, two thirds of the population voted for him. That you choose to distrust him is fine by me. I referred to some of the derogatory terms used to slam Russian PEOPLE, not their “leader”.

I obviously didn’t mean you seeing how that’s your first post in the thread.

[quote]However, it is well known the effects of nationalism upon countries who are take great falls from grace in the eyes of the world as far as power goes. People will believe anything to make their economy better and increase their standing in the world. The Russians are in that stage right now- trying to rebound from the fallout of the Cold War.

As they rise, no one in America will be surprised if they become increasingly nationalistic and aggressive, and that can be a very dangerous thing for Europe and the United States. [/quote]

As opposed to what exactly? The non-nationalist United States of America? I honestly doubt the Russian flag concentration comes anywhere close to yours.

Nationalism is alive and well everywhere. From the world’s sole hyperpower to emerging giants like China or Iran.

And Europe…well, they kinda invented nationalism as we know it.

[quote]Say what you want about cowardly Europe, but it is filled with democracies.

We cannot let them be threatened by a just-now reawakening Russian bear.
[/quote]

Like I stated earlier in the thread, France and the UK alone spend three times more money on their military than Russia. So I don’t see them being threatened by Moscow. Besides, Georgia isn’t in Europe proper.

So I’ll ask again, what do some of you guys have against the Russian people?

92

[quote]From the world’s sole hyperpower to emerging giants like China or Iran.
[/quote]

I take it this will be a term you use over and over again, without thought or substantiation, just like when you say, “World’s Fastest Growing Religion.”

93

[quote]lixy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
lixy wrote:
From many of these posts, I sense a lot of hatred towards Russians in general.

What’s up with that?

It’s not hatred, but it’s massive distrust tempered with that ominously autocratic leader of theirs.

Leaders come and go. And in the case of Medvedev, two thirds of the population voted for him. That you choose to distrust him is fine by me. I referred to some of the derogatory terms used to slam Russian PEOPLE, not their “leader”.
[/quote]

I didn’t so much mean Medvedev, who, until I see otherwise, I consider a puppet for Putin.

Hell, I like Russians. I enjoy vodka, and just got one of the best lap dances I’ve ever had from a gorgeous blond Russian chick the other night.

I obviously didn’t mean you seeing how that’s your first post in the thread.
[/quote]

I just wanted to talk about booze and strippers.

I’m not arguing with that. And a certain amount of nationalism isn’t a terrible thing. It has a purpose. However, Russian nationalism tends to dissolve into… well, autocratic communism. And Iran and China are still small potatoes compared with the threat that the USSR posed, and with the threat that Russia could pose in the future.

Understood. But again, I’m not talking about what is happening right now, so much as the implications of what Russia could head towards.

Truth be told, Russia is interesting because of more than vodka and strippers. The country has no national identity, no sense of what their country should be or should stand for.

The UK looks at itself as the proud old Lion… France, as the bastion of liberte. America looks in the mirror and sees the Constitution, the Founding Fathers. Thomas Paine.

What does Russia see? The massive Mongol influence, the massive French influence in the nineteenth century, the eleven time zones, the Czar, the Communists… they’ve never had a government that’s been elected. And when they did, they start sliding back under Putin’s thumb, or that of the Russian mob, which probably controls 90 percent of the wealth in that country.

They have never known freedom and peace. It a strange culture without a sense of itself, or its ideals. That’s why they’re dangerous.

94

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I didn’t so much mean Medvedev, who, until I see otherwise, I consider a puppet for Putin. [/quote]

Fair enough. But my point stands. Putin won’t be around forever.

Less talking. More posting pictures.

Everything has a purpose.

Smashing one’s head with a bat has a purpose. Raping kids has a purpose. Stealing has a purpose.

I think you missed the point which was about pots and kettles.

Explain.

Agreed. Allow me to add that they’re all small potatoes compared to the threat the US poses.

So you’re going all Minority Report on us now?

Dick Cheney called. He wants his ideas back.

There are a shitload of Russians who would disagree with that statement.

That’s hot air.

The UK fscked up the world so bad that there’s no way its population is looking at that with much pride. France hasn’t done much better. Shit, even overlooking their relatively modest colonial adventures, one cannot help but spit in the face of that “bastion of liberte” argument when you look at their role in the Rwandan genocide.

http://www.rfi.fr/actufr/images/104/Rapport_Rwanda.pdf

As for America, well, suffice it to say that the Founding Fathers are probably rolling in their graves.

[quote]What does Russia see? The massive Mongol influence, the massive French influence in the nineteenth century, the eleven time zones, the Czar, the Communists… they’ve never had a government that’s been elected. And when they did, they start sliding back under Putin’s thumb, or that of the Russian mob, which probably controls 90 percent of the wealth in that country.

They have never known freedom and peace. It a strange culture without a sense of itself, or its ideals. [/quote]

I see. So it’s not just the “autocratic leader” you have a problem with. You’re actually attacking the culture as a whole.

And to think your country was pushing for a democratic Russia for about a century. A cynic would see a trend where you only approve of the elected leaders when they side with you. Me, I just see remnants of propaganda sparkled with xenophobia.

That seems to be the consensus in Washington. Everybody thinks that putting ballistic missiles in Poland the Czech Republic is a good idea. Even that phony presidential candidate people here keep painting as a dove.

But if you really believe in the things you’re writing here, I suggest you vote for McCain. The guy wants to throw Russia out of the G8.

95

[quote]lixy wrote:
Agreed. Allow me to add that they’re all small potatoes compared to the threat the US poses.
[/quote]

Threat the US poses to who?

Islamic fundamentalist terrorists?

Taiwan?

Eastern Europe?

The Caucasus?

Japan?

Tibetians separtists?

96

[quote]etaco wrote:
Georgia has been trying to draw us into their conflict with the Russians for years. They may be figuring that this is their last best chance to do so before a new administration comes in that is less likely to stick its neck out for them.[/quote]

Russia has been trying to draw Georgia into a conflict for years. They are systematically packing Ossatia with Russian to gain support for the region to become a part of Russia, not to be independant as Ossatians have been wanting. If you think Russia isn’t funding insurgencies against Georgia you are kidding your self.

Russia is wants Georgia, Ukraine, and other surrounding territories. They know western EU won’t do a think about it as they are dependant on Russia for oil and natural gas.

Those that think Russia is innocent in all of this and they don’t have expansionary dreams is delusional. They are flush with oil and natural gas money and are using it, along with diversions of money from other markets to rebuild there ancient military.

Russia, China, and Iran continue to thumb there nose at the world and will do anything that furthers their cause.

The best think we and the rest of the world can do is get of of foreign oil and natural gas. If prices or demand for any one contries oil or gas, they will be much less bold and much less of a threat.

97

[quote]dhickey wrote:
They are systematically packing Ossatia with Russian to gain support for the region to become a part of Russia, not to be independant as Ossatians have been wanting. [/quote]

And what kind of evidence or insider’s knowledge do you have to call Russia a liar?

If that was the case, what exactly is stopping them? They got more firepower than would be needed to annihilate Georgia and the Ukraine.

This is a silly argument. If “western EU” (whatever that means) would do a thing about it, they’d subsequently get control over Russian oil.

Innocent? The mothertruckers were bombing civilians up until a few hours ago.

What part of “innocent” is that?

Yes, they are stepping up their military build up. But it’s nowhere near Soviet era spendings.

As opposed to the US? Gimme a break!

But, but…driving hatchbacks is unpatriotic.

Seriously though, if you think your country (or any other) can affect oil prices so much overnight to stop Russia from militarizing ever more, you’re the “delusional” one.

Not only because of the planes, boats and cars around.

And not only because the Russian military is one of the most corrupt on the planet.

But mainly because of the tremendous leverage the oil industry has on Washington.

You’d need to seriously revamp the political landscape. And I don’t mean empty “change” rhetoric either.

98

[quote]lixy wrote:
dhickey wrote:
They are systematically packing Ossatia with Russian to gain support for the region to become a part of Russia, not to be independant as Ossatians have been wanting.

And what kind of evidence or insider’s knowledge do you have to call Russia a liar?
[/quote]
Are you saying they are not? If so i guess I could dig something up for you. If you think they are as well and are just being combative then I won’t bother.

Nothing. It’s just a matter of time. They are testing the waters with Georgia to see how the world reacts.

western Europe. Soooo you think they will just invade and ocupy Russia becuase there beating up on boarder countries?

So we agree?

So they are not a military threat? Obviously they are not starting from scratch so it shouldn’t take quite the investment. They don’t have to build nukes.

You’re comparing the US to Russia, China, and Iran? Huh.

Why on earth don’t you think we can? Haven’t we already with just the threat of drilling, and conserving a little?
Which oil industusty has leverage over washington? The oil industry and catch touch tremendous reserves just sitting there? The oil industry that pays billions in taxes? That oil industry?

99

[quote]typerr wrote:
The whole conflict smells of hypocrisy, the Russians supported the Serbs fighting against the Kosovar Albanians separatists, and the United States backed the Albanian separatists completely ignoring the territorial integrity of then Yugoslavia, now Serbia.

They bombed Serbia for what was it like 90 days and recently gave Kosovo independence. Now they are telling the Russians that the Russians are a threat to democracy because they arent respecting the territorial integrity of a “democratic country”.[/quote]

What really smells of hypocrisy is Russia. Fighting Georgia so that Ossetia can have “independence” while backing Serbia’s bid to crush the Kosovar Albanians…and the destruction of Chechnia, who also wanted independence.

Why should the Ossetians have independence and not the Kosovars or the Chechens?

Are they backing Serbia and Ossetia because Serbs are Orthodox and Slavs, and the Ossetians because there are Russians in the territory?

Sounds like reasons Hitler gave for attacking Czechoslovakia, and Poland.

100

[quote]lixy wrote:
dhickey wrote:
They are systematically packing Ossatia with Russian to gain support for the region to become a part of Russia, not to be independant as Ossatians have been wanting.

And what kind of evidence or insider’s knowledge do you have to call Russia a liar?
[/quote]

Try asking a Chechen.