George W Bush Is A War Criminal

3.) You claim we violated Security Council resolutions? If you believe so, you’re a dumbass. America will never violate one. We have a veto, thus the Security Council will NEVER do something we don’t like. Why would we ever need to violate one of its provisions. Not only do you fail to support the statement, it is illogical as well.

Ad hominem attacks aside, we give three billion dollars a year to Israel, which has violated UN resolutions. Alongside other allies like Morroco and Indonesia. The point is that the US has been and continues to be complicit in the violation of UN resolutions
Flanker

Flanker, how you doin?

First of all, I find it interesting that you want to see the higher ups get punished without a trial. And yes that is what you said. You want to see them punished. That means guilty until proven innocent. Actually that means punished before they can prove innocence.

Again do you know that Abu Ghraib was stopped by the military. Not by anybody else, but by the military. They closed it down, and had a General off duty, (I don?t know what happened to him) for a month before they told everybody what happened. If it was sanctioned then it would have gone on and nobody would know about it.

You act as though it was sanctioned, but it was not.

Second, why are you brining up “client” states? I said USA. And are you sure there are resolutions against America? We can veto these things. In fact I have trouble finding which resolutions are not vetoed, because all of the Israel haters out there seem to ignore the fact that most if not all of the resolutions are vetoed after they are sent up, or passed. That makes them worthless, but does not keep people from posting them as if they were functional.

Now apparently you know little about the UN. What is its purpose? Right now it is an organization bent on the destruction of Israel. Why are there so many resolutions against Israel, and none against Palestine? Because they have turned into a twisted hate filled corrupt organization.

Just look at the Oil for Food scandal. They cared more about money then people. It was started because people cared about the starving children. But the starving children got nothing out of it, while the UN got Billions. A completely corrupt organization.

Also mentioning the World Court, I won?t even look this up, because this is another attempt at attempting to control the US. None of these organizations actually care about the world, only about knocking America “down to size”. I don’t trust either of them.

Third, of course Kofi Annon would denounce America attacking Fallujah. He doesn?t want us to win this war. He is doing all he can to keep the food for oil stuff hidden.

I don’t see why I should care what Kofi thinks. And you obviously don?t understand anything about war. So we destroyed the city. It was the terrorists home base. Now they can no longer use the city as their base of operation. That is a good thing. Why should I care about the terrorists dying anyway? Oh I know, we are supposed to care about all the children we killed, oh wait, we let the children out before we went in.

Fourth, the Funding of Hussein. This fake number keeps getting bigger and bigger. Again we were a small player, and didn’t give him as much as everybody likes to accuse us of. If you know the amounts, give the true amounts spent, and on what.

Also if we did make a mistake supporting Saddam, why is it bad to get rid of him?

You need to wake up and not make your arguments based on roumor.

[quote]naturalatlas82 wrote:
oboffill wrote:
War criminal or not, it is obvious that this administration has no f’ing clue as to how to invade a country.

LOL! You are funny. Maybe you should email GWB and give him your plan on how to invade a country :slight_smile: [/quote]

He is funny, almost as funny as the current plan of initial success, the premature ejaculation of proclaiming victory ‘Mission Accomplished’ taunting the insurgents ‘I say bring it on’ , then seeing insurgent attacks increase tenfold and watching the country slide further and further into chaos. oboffill is right.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
naturalatlas82 wrote:
oboffill wrote:
War criminal or not, it is obvious that this administration has no f’ing clue as to how to invade a country.

LOL! You are funny. Maybe you should email GWB and give him your plan on how to invade a country :slight_smile:

He is funny, almost as funny as the current plan of initial success, the premature ejaculation of proclaiming victory ‘Mission Accomplished’ taunting the insurgents ‘I say bring it on’ , then seeing insurgent attacks increase tenfold and watching the country slide further and further into chaos. oboffill is right.

[/quote]

Yes, and almost as funny as you betting that Kerry would win the election and having to change your name to ILOVEGWBUSH for a month, lol.

I can’t be arsed to read the whole thread, as I have a life to live, but I love the use of the word ‘liberal’ as a term of insult. Especially when it’s followed by something along the lines of, (and I’m paraphrasing as I can’t be bothered to find the original quote) “you seem like the kind of person who thinks criminals can be rehabilitated”.

Fuck me there are some intelligent, enlightened people on here.

ps re the Geneva Convention not applying to terrorists, how does Iraq fit into this? Is Ireland next up on the list?

JusttheFacts,

You wrote: “At this point these so called “insurgents” are just ordinary Iraqi citizens who just want us OUT.”

Don’t your Democratic pals spend an inordinate amount of time denying the obvious fact that Al Qaeda was supported, trained, and encouraged by Saddam?

With your statement are you beginning to acknowledge the obvious?

Isn’t Saddam harboring and supporting Al Qaeda all the justification necessary for removal?

Oh, Zarqawi is Al Qaeda.

He is described as an “insurgent.”

He is leading attacks against the Coalition.

Have a great day!!!

JeffR

Okay, Bush went into an illegal war to get oil. But we need oil! We are an oil dependent economy. Without oil our economic structure would crumble. Now if we are over there taking oil because if we don’t there is going to be a depression then that’s okay with me. I don’t think it’s right, but okay. If we are taking oil because George Bush and Mr. Cheney wish to create enormous wealth for companies by giving them no bid contracts, then I am not okay with it. I doubt we will ever get the real facts, because if it was a conspiracy there is plenty of money and power to cover it up.

Anyone who actually thought we were creating a democracy, I’m sorry.

Hey Arnld,

Great post!!!

Tell your little green friends to turn down the beam (you appear to be coming apart at the seams).

Thanks,

JeffR

[quote]Flanker wrote:
3.) You claim we violated Security Council resolutions? If you believe so, you’re a dumbass. America will never violate one. We have a veto, thus the Security Council will NEVER do something we don’t like. Why would we ever need to violate one of its provisions. Not only do you fail to support the statement, it is illogical as well.

Ad hominem attacks aside, we give three billion dollars a year to Israel, which has violated UN resolutions. Alongside other allies like Morroco and Indonesia. The point is that the US has been and continues to be complicit in the violation of UN resolutions
Flanker[/quote]

Flanker, I love how you come in here and drop ignorance bombs like this.

Firstly, there are different types of UN resolutions. Some are of more import than are others.

Now, specifically, only UNSC Resolutions enacted under Chapter VII require compliance. Those were the type passed against Iraq and Saddam Hussein. The rest amount to suggestions. Now go look up the type of resolution passed “against Israel” and see what type you find.

You can’t really be in violation of something that doesn’t require compliance, now can you?

Please read about Uncle Saddam:

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

You guys are really giving this flanker fellow far more time than he deserves.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
I’m amazed by some of responses to this post.

Does anyone realize that Saddam has been in custody for quite some time now?

Does anyone remember why we went to Iraq in the first place?

Regardless what other nations do it’s up to the US to lead by example. Saddam “the villain” is gone. At this point these so called “insurgents” are just ordinary Iraqi citizens who just want us OUT.

I guess we can do what ever we want since they aren’t wearing uniforms and every Muslim defending their country is a terrorist. It’s amazing how we know that everyone we kill is a terrorist/insurgent and not a civilian, despite the lack of uniforms.

The Pentagon has admitted to using Napalm in Baghdad…a banned weapon. It’s OK though because it was only used on terrorists.

The reason for going into Iraq has long since past…how we are fighting terrorism at this point is way beyond me.[/quote]

Do you have any sites for your napalm claim that don’t involve sources no one has ever heard of previously?

As to “insurgents,” I agree with you that the label is bad. There are terrorists, and there are the ordinary Iraqis. Terrorists target civilians, do not wear uniforms, hide in civilian populations, and generally violate the precepts of the Geneva Convention at every turn. You may not realize this, but the Geneva Convention only offers protections to those who generally follow its precepts – thus, the incentive to fight by its precepts is the expectation that you will also benefit from having your opponents fight by its precepts. Offering its protections to people who are violating all its protections is exactly ass backwards – the terrorists should not receive ANY protections under the Geneva Convention.

Also, in your many sojourns onto the internet for information, haven’t you seen reports about all the foreign fighters that are coming into Iraq, specifically from Iran and through Syria?

Take Falluja as an example. Not only to note its success, given that attacks have fallen by half across the country since it fell, but also to note how civilians were evacuated at the probable expense of losing a chance to get the ringleaders. I defy you to find any country in the history of modern warfare that has done more to attempt to avoid civilian casualties than the U.S. has in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, look up the stats on the terrorists captured and killed, and note the nationalities. Hardly a sampling of average Iraqi folks.

By the by, they are fighting terrorists in Iraq – you can argue about whether they would have been there save for our going into Iraq, but if they weren’t in Iraq they would have been somewhere else. You may also argue that there would be fewer, though I’ve seen nothing but a bunch of speculation on that subject. Irrespective though, the big players would have been out there, and they still would have been upset about the U.S. being in Saudi Arabia, which, if you recall, is the site of all the holy sites, not Iraq.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You guys are really giving this flanker fellow far more time than he deserves.[/quote]

I agree. Especially given he’s simply recycling the same old tropes that have been floating around for years now. Oh well.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You guys are really giving this flanker fellow far more time than he deserves.[/quote]

Dear Fellow Americans,

I realize in your conservative minds I’m a member of the “looney left” an “ultra-liberal” or whatever terms you use to describe Vroom et al. But the simple truth of the matter is that in the global sense I’m a member of the moral majority and your the extreme right wing.

Wow. I think that I’ve stumbled into the wrong area, but reading posts like this, I can’t help but say something. I’ve been perusing this site for a few weeks now, and this may even be my first post.

First off, I am an American. I love my country, and in the event that it needed protecting, I would gladly fight to defend it. I think that we should have invaded Afghanistan, and had a draft insued over the pursuit of Afghanistan I would have gladly joined the military to fight for it. Having said that, while I don’t necessarily agree with Flanker’s specific topics of debate, I am alarmed about the general attitude that seems to surround the war in Iraq, just like he is. The war in Iraq, plain and simple, was not the priority in our “War on Terror”. Saddam Hussein was a very bad man, and yes, the world is a better place without him, however, we had better places to spend our money and our lives. If your reason for supporting the war in Iraq is to fight terrorism, is Iran or Saudi Arabia or North Korea, or some country that we KNOW has WMDs and that we KNOW harbors terrorism not a better place to start? If your reason for supporting the war was the “UN resolutions”, is it not painfully obvious that the only reason that the UN reopened weapons inspections, and thus led to Iraq not letting us in and thus leading to the justification of war, because the US pushed for them? What about the reason for war being that Iraq broke cease fire agreements? We started BOMBING their asses, and you expect them not to shoot back? Maybe I’m wrong, and they started doing it first, but I was pretty sure that Clinton started bombing them when they were giving us a hard time about the weapons inspections way back when. I haven’t been convinced yet of a good reason to invade Iraq, given that there are lots of other “bad” countries out there. I don’t know if anyone remembers this either, but the reason for invading back in April of 2000-whatever it was, was Weapons of Mass Destruction. It’s funny how those reasons change after everyone finds out that they didn’t have any.

Just simple, mild observations and questions that I wondered when I read these posts. I don’t need flames, I’ll do just fine with simple retorts. It’s that very fanaticism and aggresiveness (must be some need for ignorant people to feel like they belong to something important) that causes these problems in the first place.

Flanker,
Speaking as a Muslim, I don’t think you are global minded at all. Why don’t you go to the middle east and try to REALLY understand the mindset of the people there. Try to understand the mistreatment of women all over in the area. How woman can’t even watch men play soccer in Iran. How woman can’t drive cars in Saudi Arabia. I won’t even start on Saddam as you probably know from the little the media has released on him.
I am not some crazy right winger. Neither are most of the people on this site. Comments like “make the middle east into a parking lot” are the exception and not the norm.
At the least, please study the geneva conventions. Bush is NOT a war crimial. Saddam broke EVERY UN Sanction placed on him and the UN was supposed to respond with actions. Forget the WMD. The impact of a free country, like Iraq is becoming, has huge implications in the Middle East. It won’t be an easy process, but it is a start.
Don’t believe what you see in the media. If you want to be truely passionate about the subject, I would suggest a field trip to Iraq or another country in the middle east.

BTW, on the “Why Iraq” question, this article posits an interesting theory of realpoliticking w/r/t Iraq – I am going to read this book… Invading Iraq was an part of a policy of containment. Instead of containing Saddam, as had been our policy for at least a decade, however, we’re now trying to contain the Saudis – and the thesis is it’s working. I’m hoping our policy is as well conceived as this article makes it out:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11498606^31501,00.html

WMDs camouflage real reasons behind Iraq invasion

November 26, 2004

WHY are we in Iraq? It is not, as some ranters claim, because George Bush is stupid and bloodthirsty and John Howard a spineless crawler. Nor is it because the US has regressed to Wilsonian imperialism.

For those seriously interested in the question I recommend a seriously interesting new book, America’s Secret War by George Friedman. Friedman is founder of Stratfor, a private, subscription-financed global intelligence service, which I find consistently well-informed. Friedman writes of the struggle in Iraq in relentlessly Realpolitik terms.

Although the US believed Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction, the WMDs were ultimately “a cover for a much deeper game”. The big game began with the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan and the US enlisting the assistance of Saudi Arabia in backing the Afghan resistance. The Saudis provided financing and guerilla fighters. They influenced other Islamic countries to send guerillas.

This international brigade included members of Islam’s moneyed and educated elite (including Osama bin Laden) - the core of al-Qa’ida.

When the Soviet Union retreated from Afghanistan, this elite had become knowledgeable veterans of guerilla warfare, full of swagger about defeating the world’s second superpower.

The oil billionaires back home, impressed with themselves for “bailing the Americans out”, financed the warrior elite and the fundamentalist Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

From this fortress headquarters, Friedman writes, al-Qa’ida (“the Base” in English) pressed its grand design for an Islamist world federation, a new Caliphate, which would ultimately match, if not dominate, other superpowers. Global terrorism would be the means. Al-Qa’ida’s opening moves - attacks on American embassies and other establishments abroad - were aimed, in Friedman’s opinion, less at damaging the US than provoking it to a reckless assault on Islam.

This, al-Qa’ida believed, would stir the “Islamic street” to a confrontational mood with the West and rebellion against non-fundamentalist Islamic regimes, establishing the foundations of the great federation. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, however, the US, confident of its hegemony, had concluded that “war was now optional”, that no power existed that could force it into war.

The passive US response to its early pinprick attacks emboldened and frustrated al-Qa’ida. The jihadists, Friedman writes, “needed to strike a blow that would be devastating, [breaching] the threshold between what was tolerable and intolerable for the US”. Their initiative was the September11, 2001, attack on New York and Washington, which shocked and disoriented the Americans. Their first reaction was to speculate almost in panic about a September 11 with nuclear weapons.

This began an obsession with WMDs. US actions were practical and reasonably prompt, however. The US persuaded Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union to make inventory of their nuclear weapons and strengthen security on them.

Rather astonishingly, as Friedman reports it, the US pressured Pakistan - the Muslim country most advanced in nuclear weaponry and the one in closest contact with Islamic fundamentalism - into permitting US soldiers dressed as civilians to place a guard on its nuclear stockpile. To disabuse Islam of the illusion that the US was weak of will and, on the evidence of Vietnam, unable to sustain a prolonged war, the Bush administration decided to strike its own devastating blow in response to September 11.

The invasion and speedy subjugation of Afghanistan staggered the jihadists. But the US, having succeeded only in dispersing al-Qa’ida and the Taliban, rather than eliminating them, believed it needed to strike another heavy blow.

By then it had identified the jihadist campaign as “a Saudi problem”. Most of the September 11 suicide attackers had been Saudis. Bin Laden was a Saudi. Saudi money trails were everywhere. An invasion of Saudi Arabia presented the tactical problem of waging war against a country of vast area and the strategic one of disrupting the world’s oil supplies.

The Americans had established and then strengthened a military presence in countries surrounding Saudi Arabia - Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait. Invasion of Iraq would complete the encirclement.

“From a purely military view,” Friedman adds, “Iraq is the most strategic single country in the Middle East, [bordering] six other countries: Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Turkey and Iran.”

So the US struck, with consequences unfolding nightly on our TV screens. Friedman believes the US-jihadist war hangs in the balance. However, the measured actions of the US during the past three years, including its strong military presence in the Middle East, have caused significant moderation of the position on global jihad of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim regimes.

The strategy of the jihadists has stalled: "Not a single regime has fallen to

al-Qa’ida … There is no rising in the Islamic street. [There has been] complete failure of al-Qa’ida to generate the political response they were seeking … At this point the US is winning … The war goes on."

If the Nuremburg laws were applied evenly then every administration since WWII would be war crimminals. Remember it’s not just Bush but all the crimminals around him as well(administration).

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
If the Nuremburg laws were applied evenly then every administration since WWII would be war crimminals. Remember it’s not just Bush but all the crimminals around him as well(administration).[/quote]

One of the reasons this might even be true is that Nurembourg went too far, legally, in order to get a preferred outcome with a facade of legal process. They applied all sorts of ex post facto principles, and refused to even countenance certain defenses (tu quoue) that would have called into question allied – especially Russian – practices in WWII.

What a damn moron. I seriously can’t believe some of the rantings on this site. Well, Flanker: If GWB is a war criminal, then I am a war criminal; so fuck you. You obviously don’t know your ass from an elbow, so maybe you should do some research before you post stupid shit like chemical weapons such as depleted uranium shells. So do me a favor and go back to your “No Blood For Oil” protest. RLTW

rangertab75