Gay Marriage

Bluey -

Your argument misses the definition of what the criminal law should enforce.

A criminal act must cause injury to a third person - a crime must have a victim. So, murder is not only immoral, but it inflicts the must serious injury by wrongfully depriving another of their life. The law against murder doesn’t enforce morality per se; it is there to protect people from losing their life.

By contrast, homosexual sex between two consenting adults injures no one. The fact that it offends society is not a sufficient injury because then it becomes a “political” crime and we can say welcome Big Brother.

If you accept this distinction, then the slope becomes less slippery. The idea that it would suddenly become okay to molest children because the government has no right to enforce morality doesn’t fly. Children, due to their emotional development, cannot give consent to a sexual act even if they say “yes.” A sexual act upon another without their consent causes an injury. Therefore, a sexual act with a child will always cause injury and is a proper subject of criminal law.

These “slippery slope” agreements are not only dumb, but offensive. There are real, feeling people behind these relationships–stop and think about that for a moment.

I’ve been lurking on this thread with interest. I am gay, have been in a six-year committed relationship. I would love to get married. My relationship is wonderful–caring, deeply connected, loving and spiritual. I know whatever path I choose, she will be right there with me, or along side me, supportive. Together we are productive, healthy and joyful members of society.

On the flip side, I have heterosexual friends, married, who have no particularly deep insight into each other. They do things to each other emotionally that baffle me. They are not nearly as connected as I am with my partner.

Their relationship is celebrated by society. Mine is compared to a relationship with a chicken. That’s really sad.

The times they are a changin’ though… All kinds of things have been happening this week. Even George W said “well we’ll let the lawyers work on that (gay marriage) and see what they come up with”

Definitely interesting. I wonder what sort of effect it will have on Gays people in the Military.

Are gay people not allowed in the US military? Or did I read that wrong? I sure as hell hope so.

In some areas you guys are living in the fucking dark ages.

/Jacob

rep - We’ve got a don’t ask/don’t tell philosophy in the military, but if you tell, we also have something called a dishonorable discharge, which is insane.

But I think it’s pretty obvious why having homosexuals in the military could cause some problems. Or, as an asswipe professor used to say, “intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.”

The Military still uses the “Don’t ask don’t tell Policy” Which means that people can’t ask others if they are gay and gay people can’t tell us that they are…

Once it becomes public, then things get ugly.

First, big props to Lisa Simpson for coming out and shutting all of you assholes up. It means a lot more to hear an argument from a gay individual then from someone who sides with them.

Second, by accepting marriage you don’t force institutions to accept the marriage. An example is the Catholic church. I can get married as a catholic, but if I divorce, I cannot be re-married in the church (unless I have the original wedding annulled)

Yet, I can still get married in other churches, under common law, etc.

The option of marriage is different from the institution that sanctions your marriage. So gays may not be able to get married in a variety of religious institutions that condemn their lifestyle, but would still be able to wed in any other number of religions/state sanctioned institutions.

Lisa,

I’m sort of on the fence about gay marriage, but your story refutes the argument that legalizing gay marriages will dilute family values. With all the divorces and problems facing families, you and your partner, as well as other gay couples, actually want to be in a committed relationship.

BTW - I never did understand the argument that gay marriage would dilute family values. I mean, it’s not like I married a female because the law didn’t allow me to marry a guy. That’s ridiculous I’m in a heterosexual relationship because of the simple fact that I’m hetero. And if the State of Colorado suddenly passed a law that legalized gay marriages, I’m not going to suddenly leave my wife and child to pursue a gay relationship.

I suppose one last family values justification is that laws that make homosexuality “okay” might cause some people to “experiment.” You can’t legislate good family values. If someone wants to “experiment,” then they’re probably not ready to start a family. If the goal of family values is raising good kids in a stable home environment, then I don’t think forcing people who are confused about their sexuality will accomplish that.

DJS:

I have thought the same things. Homosexuality exists and is real. The implications of that are far reaching when you accept that and then try to understand its purpose. Considering overpopulation it would be interesting to have a study that sees, over a period of 10-20 years, whether homosexuality became more prevalent. A truly gay person would probably be 90% less likely to reproduce without technology. Nature seems to always strive for balance…

DEEZLODAWG: Wasn`t a study of progressive overpopulation of rats already done on that tone?

Apparently, homosexuality and some deviant traits (cannibalism, pedophilia, etc.) emerged as populations rose.

I think most of you do not understand the concerns about the legal impact of legalizing gay marriage. It has nothing to do with the Bible - it has everything to do with the worry that such a legalization will weaken or destroy the construct of heterosexual marriage as it currently exists, with a particular focus on the male-female union for child-raising purposes (which is the main reason that marriage enjoys its special legal status).

The laws as they currently exist define marriage as the union between a man and a woman. The rationale that has been adopted for broadening that definition to include same-sex couples unfortunately cannot be stopped there. Lisa Simpson, the actual argument here is not that your relationship is being compared with a bestiality relationship – rather, it is that if one accepts the rationale offered to expand the definition of marriage to a homosexual relationship, that rationale cannot logically be stopped there, and would extend to relationships of bestiality and polyamory. There is a huge difference between the that and the comparison you implied, which I’m sure you comprehend.

The rationale to which I’ve referred above is the rationale that any consenting adults who decide they want to be in a legally recognized relationship should be allowed to do so. There is no logical or legal (believe me, the two are not always coincident) reason why this should be limited to two persons. More troubling still, there is no legal or logical rationale for not extending this argument to closely related adults (incest) or to an adult and a creature whose consent is not required for humans to act upon it (bestiality).

First, examine polyamorous relationships – especially as there is already an interest group lined up to argue for this extension the moment that any sort of gay marriage based upon the two-adults rationale is passed. Without the rationale of marriage between one man and one woman for child-rearing purposes, there is no premise on which to limit the number of consenting adults in a union to two. That number, without the rationale, is arbitrary and capricious.

Second, examine incestuous relations. While it might be argued from a utilitarian perspective that society has an interest in preventing siblings from procreating, it is problematic in that we do not stop people with genetic predispositions to birth defects from procreating. This rationale would also not hold for same-sex incest.

Thirdly, examine bestiality. While some will argue this will not hold because the animal is not a consenting adult, this does not matter. We do all sorts of things to animals that do not require their consent – such as kill and eat them. The only argument against bestiality is a moral one, and the consent principle would not necessarily serve to limit a “marriage” between a man and an animal (incidentally, this also applies to the invalidation of sodomy laws – the rationale is easily transferred to these other “moral” laws).

As you can see, it is the rationale behind marriage defined as between one man and one woman for child rearing that is the limiting factor. Any sort of rationale that tries to encompass “consenting adults” threatens to fall down a very slippery slope indeed – and one that only requires one step (not your common logical fallacy slippery slope argument of if this then this then this then this so watch out).

The above is just from memory from some articles I have read on the subject. I suggest you do the same to understand what you are arguing about. The main author I have read is Stanley Kurtz – just do a Google search with his name and same-sex marriage and you should turn up some interesting debates – Kurtz’s articles always link to the articles he argues against, usually by Andrew Sullivan, a gay conservative who argues for expanding marriage to include same-sex couples.

MikeTheBear

I do not object to homosexual sex, but I do object to homosexual marriage as another piece of social engineering being shoved down the public?s throat.

My point was that the government has the absolute right to decide what is legal in the lands that they govern. These laws will be based on what society considers moral (at least in a democracy). The law has been hijacked to serve the political agendas of un-elected judges, lawyers and plaintiffs. The law must serve the wishes of society and government and if you will excuses the pun not be a law unto itself.

Does any body remember Mike The Libertarian? As a member of the wacko left he had some strange ideas as to the slippery slope and where it should stop. I can?t find the tread in the archives but if he is still lurking please enlighten us.

Also I am amused by people?s belief that we will be viewed as bigots by future generations. Does anyone really think that if things continue as is the nations of the west will exist in even 100 years? I doubt our successors will have the same view.

BTW, in case you read the last post and wonder about my own position: I am for legislatively establishing (don’t even get me started about the proper role of the judiciary in a tripartate system) a civil union along the lines of what Vermont has initiated, which extends the economic benefits of marriage to homosexual couples. That would cement the legal status of many current practices and would not threaten the institution of marriage as it stands, and could be defined on its own terms to apply only to two adults of legal age to contract.

Lisa, I’m not sure if you are still reading this post or not as it is starting to fall off the main page, but I wanted to respond to your message.

In your reply you did not even give one shred of evidence why the slipery slope argument does not apply. Boston Barrister said it very well and I highly suggest you, and anyone else in favor of gay marriage, read some of the articles he brings up.

I have no problems with homosexuals. I could care less what people do in their own rooms. I would not be opposed to working out some form of policy which functioned like marriage (such as extending benefits and the transfer of belongings after death) to a homosexual couple, so long as there were penalties for breaking that union equal to those found in marriage (such as forced alomony, division of assets, etc.). But again, we would have to really walk a fine line because if this were extended, you can be sure that Mormons and other polygomous couple would look for it as well.

You cannot assume that whenever society extends itself to include you (in whatever aspect of your life) that it will stop there, because the same arguments you use to get what you want are going to be used to bring about something you may not want.

I see the point you’re making but you can’t use that rationale, it’s a cop-out. Should all progress just stop because of something else that might pop up on the horizon? Someone said that recognizing same sex unions may lead to legalizing pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia. It left me utterly baffled. How? In order to sign a contract, which is essentally what civil marriage is, you have to be human, alive, and over 18 years of age. This will not change simply by saying that two people regardless of gender can enter into the contract. We can deal with the issues that arise, but denying people a basic right because of the irrational fear that something else might be a big issue later is, well, cowardly. The fact is that two men or women sharing a civil union doesn’t affect anyone else in the least and there’s no state interest in refusing to recognize them.

I suppose I should refine my statement…there are some slippery slope arguments that are more valid than others. Gay unions opening the door to polyamorous unions–sure, I could see how that would be the next challenge. Frankly, I don’t really have a stance on poly unions–if an of-age, consenting group wants to form an economic union, especially for the benefit of raising children, I don’t know enough to dismiss that out of hand. Not my area of expertise.

But really, to then make the leap to bestiality and incest is overkill. A very imperfect metaphor: it’s like banning ephedra because a handful of people died. Are people really lining up for the opportunity to pursue unions with animals? Or their siblings? Here is where a lot of common sense fails–or becomes a victim in the pursuit of maintaining prejudices.

Frankly, I would be happy with civil unions, and leave “marriage” as heterosexual, as to me it’s merely semantics. What really is the difference in “marriage” and “civil unions,” if the same legal benefits and penalties are conferred?

However, if marriage is a union recognized by the state for the purpose of bearing children, then are the childless less married? What about gay couples with children?

Lisa –

Your statement about people who are childless being less married is a non-sequiter. Whether a particular married couple chooses to procreate or not has no bearing on the policy rationale for giving a particular set of benefits as a society to all male/female married couples in order to advance an interest in child rearing for the whole of society. That is a part/whole logical fallacy.

As to whether bestiality and incest will or will not follow, I agree with you that they are less likely that polyamory. However, the likelihood was not the point. The point was that the principle being advanced – namely that consenting adults should be able to join as they please and be recognized by the state – could not be delimited to stop such occurences. That one reason (among many) that a legislative action to create a civil union would be much more desirable than a court articulating some broad principle that it makes up and declares a Constitutional right.

The problem with waiting for the legislature to get around to doing something like that is that it doesn’t work. Democracy is at it’s essence, two wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner. We need the Court to step in from time to time and legislate from the bench. Those jutsices aren’t answerable to the voting public, they can take an unpopular stand without risking their jobs.

Now, I am not saying the Court should or would do something to “legalize” same sex unions. It might start by declaring the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional, because at it’s base it is, but there hasn’t been a challenge to the law yet. But even striking down that law will not create civil unions, it would simply allow for recognition of a civil union from one state, say, Vermont, where it is recognized, to another state if that couple moves there.

Personally, I don’t think the state should be in the business of recognizing and protecting certain classes of people over another anyway. If the rights accorded a marriage can be granted by simply signing contracts and powers of attorneys, then why do we need a state-sanctioned marriage anyway? If marriage is truly a religious institution let it remain such, but level the playing field. There’s lots of gay and lesbian couples with children. There are many who have partners that die and end up getting screwed by the system because their 20-year union meant nothing to the state.

And I, for one, am tired of the red herrings being tossed around. I’ve been with my partner for seven years, longer than many “marriages” last, and it’s disgustinly unjust that we can’t have a civil union. Meanwhile, heterosexuals and their 50% divorce rate really show how much they care about marriage. I guess we’re just supposed to sit here and spend our lives being less worthy of the protection that straight people have (and totally take for granted) just because of the genitals we happen to own. And this, in the supposed “freest country on the planet”. But screw that, because as long as I live in this country and pay my taxes to fund it I’ll be damned if I quit fighting for EQUAL recognition, and if it takes a Court decision to do what the craven, cowardly legislature will not, then I’ll accept it as a victory nonetheless.

Bump. Here’s another old gay marriage related thread. This topic has been done to death, unless there’s some new stuff to discuss…

So in a culture with shows like the bachelor and who wants to marry a millionaire/dad/mom/donkey, your gonna try and pawn off the notion that marriage is sacred? please dont piss in my ear and tell me its raining, there is no REAL reason to stop them from marrying legally, now from a religious standpoint each religion should have to right to perform or not perform whatever service they choose, From a legal standpoint they dont have a leg to stand on