[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Gay marriage passed in Maine, Maryland and Colorado. So much for “gay marriage has never passed a referendum.” And the amendment in Minnesota to define marriage as between one man and one woman was voted down. Looks like a clean sweep for gay marriage this election.[/quote]
THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE END OF THE FAMILY AND CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT!!!*
*sarcasm. It’s about time.
I read an interesting article yesterday about the relationship between heterosexual and homosexual marriage. It turns out that states in which the latter is legal/viewed more favorably have much lower divorce rates overall. I’ll try to find it.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I read an interesting article yesterday about the relationship between heterosexual and homosexual marriage. It turns out that states in which the latter is legal/viewed more favorably have much lower divorce rates overall. I’ll try to find it.[/quote]
Haven’t you ever seen a map of the US with divorce rates by state? The position of the colors looks vary familiar.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I read an interesting article yesterday about the relationship between heterosexual and homosexual marriage. It turns out that states in which the latter is legal/viewed more favorably have much lower divorce rates overall. I’ll try to find it.[/quote]
Haven’t you ever seen a map of the US with divorce rates by state? The position of the colors looks vary familiar.[/quote]
Yup.
As far as I’ve ever seen, the only somewhat legitimate argument to oppose gay marriage is that it would mess up the social incentive structure that marriage provides and somehow lead to fewer children being raised in stable, loving households that give them the best shot at growing up to be good citizens with the values that society wants them to have. After all, as far as the state is concerned, that’s what marriage is for: incentives to raise and educate good kids in a stable environment. Actually, that’s what permanent pair-bonding has been for in every human culture ever. Anything besides that is subjective–personal disgust, religious reasons, etc.–and has no place in law.
But that argument seems to go entirely out of the window when you think about the overwhelming evidence that being homosexual is not a choice, or affected by social influence at all…It’s not like gay people go away or stop being gay when you outlaw gay marriage, nor do most of them marry heterosexually and raise children. And even if they do, is that as likely to be a good, stable household as if they were with someone they were legitimately attracted to and loved? It’s also not like people who would otherwise marry heterosexually stop doing so when you allow gay marriage. It doesn’t have to change any of the social structures at all. If anything, it allows more stable, quality households to form and raise successful children. Since we have plenty of kids not being raised in good households today, how is stopping people who could be committed to each other and be good parents from adopting and raising kids constructive?
The slippery slope arguments that have been made regarding, “Oh well then marriage is any consenting being with any other etc. etc.” are silly because clearly some of those hypothetical arrangements clearly would mess up the social objectives that marriage is supposed to achieve. But there just isn’t any logic or evidence that gay marriage would.
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.
[quote]reallywittyname wrote:
As far as I’ve ever seen, the only somewhat legitimate argument to oppose gay marriage is that it would mess up the social incentive structure that marriage provides and somehow lead to fewer children being raised in stable, loving households that give them the best shot at growing up to be good citizens with the values that society wants them to have.
[/quote]
1.1) Legal privileges granted to combinations of persons deemed to be legally married are inherently discriminatory against combinations of persons not deemed to be legally married. So if there is going to be any combination of persons at all that is not eligible to be recognized as legally married to each other or among themselves: there should be major societal benefit(s) gained by granting the particular privileges to those who are eligible.
1.2) If there were no legal privileges and legal duties given to heterosexual marriage, that would “mess up the social incentive structure that marriage provides and somehow lead to fewer children being raised in stable, loving households that give them the best shot at growing up to be good citizens with the values that society wants them to have.”
1.3) If there are no legal privileges and legal duties given to homosexual marriage, that does not mess up any social incentive structure of comparable gravity to #1.2 above.
1.4) On the other hand, if there are legal privileges and duties given to homosexual marriage:
It increases the burden borne by the whole of society, to support the legal privileges granted to additional persons who are deemed to be legally married, with no major societal benefit gained in exchange for that increased burden (as per #1.3 above), and while still leaving some combinations of persons as ineligible for those privileges.
It increases the burden borne by the whole of society, to try to enforce legal duties of a larger number of people (when disputes occur within combinations of persons who are legally recognized as being married), again with no major societal benefit gained in exchange for that increased burden (as per #1.3 above).
#1, #1.1, #1.2, #1.3, #1.4 are a re-hash of stuff said before. But maybe the particular way they are laid out and organized this time might make the argument more clear. Or maybe not.
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?[/quote]
For my part, it isn’t really that important to me. I think it’s great when gay marriage advocates win their battles, but it’s not something that gets me fired up/angry/excited. And as you say, there are more important things.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.[/quote]
Nah, this is the first tipping point. Look at the public opinions on gay marriage. The buildup has been quite impressive. This is only the beginning.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?[/quote]
I don’t support it anymore than anything else that keeps us from becoming a theocracy or protecting civil rights. I’m going to marry my fiance in 8 months. I’m very excited. Who the fuck am I to say one of her good friends who is gay doesn’t deserve that same right?
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.[/quote]
Nah, this is the first tipping point. Look at the public opinions on gay marriage. The buildup has been quite impressive. This is only the beginning. [/quote]
Disagree. I don’t think it goes much further than this.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.[/quote]
Nah, this is the first tipping point. Look at the public opinions on gay marriage. The buildup has been quite impressive. This is only the beginning. [/quote]
Disagree. I don’t think it goes much further than this.[/quote]
I know you hope it doesn’t. This is only the beginning. Public opinion isn’t going to reverse trend. Look at the polling. A steady and consistent dip in opposition since 2005. A generation of younger people unopposed and a populace opposed that is dying off.
It won’t happen overnight, these things tend to build state by state. But it isn’t a fad. Civil rights never are. I haven’t seen ANY polling that would suggest otherwise. Very consistent drop in opposition that doesn’t have any signs of slowing down.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?[/quote]
Gay marriage in America is actually not all that important to me, especially since I will be moving to Norway next year. I do think that gay people should have the right to marry, and I would vote for it on a referendum but beyond that I do not spend any time thinking about it and barely ever spend any time discussing it except when discussing election results.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.[/quote]
Nah, this is the first tipping point. Look at the public opinions on gay marriage. The buildup has been quite impressive. This is only the beginning. [/quote]
Disagree. I don’t think it goes much further than this.[/quote]
I know you hope it doesn’t. This is only the beginning. Public opinion isn’t going to reverse trend. Look at the polling. A steady and consistent dip in opposition since 2005. A generation of younger people unopposed and a populace opposed that is dying off.
It won’t happen overnight, these things tend to build state by state. But it isn’t a fad. Civil rights never are. I haven’t seen ANY polling that would suggest otherwise.
[/quote]
Oh, I think it’s support has a ceiling. We shall see.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.[/quote]
Nah, this is the first tipping point. Look at the public opinions on gay marriage. The buildup has been quite impressive. This is only the beginning. [/quote]
“The most danngerous moment comes with victory” - Bonaparte
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?[/quote]
I don’t support it anymore than anything else that keeps us from becoming a theocracy or protecting civil rights. I’m going to marry my fiance in 8 months. I’m very excited. Who the fuck am I to say one of her good friends who is gay doesn’t deserve that same right? [/quote]
He does deserve the same right and already has that right. He can marry any woman he pleases with mutual consent. Who the hell are you to tell us marriage is something other than what it actually is? i.e. a union between a man and a woman. Not a man and a man; not a man and a cow; not a rooster and a tin of sardines. Enough of the crap and misdirection please!
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Plenty of states left defending traditional marriage. It’ll end up being reversed when this bit of arbitrary fad runs it’s course.[/quote]
Nah, this is the first tipping point. Look at the public opinions on gay marriage. The buildup has been quite impressive. This is only the beginning. [/quote]
Disagree. I don’t think it goes much further than this.[/quote]
I know you hope it doesn’t. This is only the beginning. Public opinion isn’t going to reverse trend. Look at the polling. A steady and consistent dip in opposition since 2005. A generation of younger people unopposed and a populace opposed that is dying off.
It won’t happen overnight, these things tend to build state by state. But it isn’t a fad. Civil rights never are. I haven’t seen ANY polling that would suggest otherwise. Very consistent drop in opposition that doesn’t have any signs of slowing down.
[/quote]
It’s not a ‘civil right.’ It’s a positive right imposed upon by the government at the insistence of radical lobby groups with the intent of destroying the institution of marriage.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?[/quote]
I don’t support it anymore than anything else that keeps us from becoming a theocracy or protecting civil rights. I’m going to marry my fiance in 8 months. I’m very excited. Who the fuck am I to say one of her good friends who is gay doesn’t deserve that same right? [/quote]
He does deserve the same right and already has that right. He can marry any woman he pleases with mutual consent. Who the hell are you to tell us marriage is something other than what it actually is? i.e. a union between a man and a woman. Not a man and a man; not a man and a cow; not a rooster and a tin of sardines. Enough of the crap and misdirection please![/quote]
Oh bullshit. “Blacks do have the right. They have the right to live, just not the right to vote!” Nice slippery slope fallacy. Oh no if gays get married then people will be marrying cows! Wait why hasn’t that happened where gay marriage has been allowed? Why haven’t I heard of a bunch of men and women marrying chimpanzees in Iowa? Crap and misdirection my ass. So you have a problem with me telling you marriage can be different, but you have no problem telling me it can’t. Nice consistency. He has the right as long as he does exactly what I want. Real tolerant there folks!
It really doesn’t matter. You’re on the losing side here. A president came out for it and he just won the presidency. Public opinion polls are constantly moving toward the majority. A supreme court decision is coming soon. Kids aren’t growing up fearful of “catching” gay and needing to pray the gay away. The younger generation realizes it doesn’t effect them and they don’t care if their friends get married to men or women. You’re entitled to your opinion and that’s great, but JUST like with women voting and blacks voting the rest of us are moving on without you. You can still find people wishing women didn’t have the right to vote and that’s fine. They can have that opinion. The rest of us are moving on.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I have a question for all the pro-gay “marriage” advocates posting here. Why is it so important to you guys? Some of you seem to have some sort of fixation on the issue. Aren’t there more important things to discuss? I mean seriously, what is it with gay “marriage” that is of such pressing concern?[/quote]
It’s easily debated because everyone has a strong yes or no opinion on the issue and most people don’t see the cons to their position. All the other important things there is no solution A and B to debate, there is solution A to Z all of which have their pros and cons. As far as importance most gay people and their friends will vote democrat without looking at other issues, this is easily 1% of the vote and when elections are this close wouldn’t it be nice to make an issue like this go away? And until its legal everywhere its not going away, this is not an issue people change their mind on as they get older. Sure there may be some new liberal ideas in the future I will totally disagree with and be an old man republican myself one day but gay marriage is not one of them.