[quote]sufiandy wrote:
But we are so close[/quote]
To you finally arriving at point? No, I don’t think so. Take care and good luck.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
why do you not want it to be criminalized?
[/quote]
Why do you assume they don’t want it criminalized?
I’ll cut through the bullshit/burden of proofs/and legal arguments:
Con-law problems aside, the real issue is the normalization of homosexuality in society. If you are against gay marriage, I have confidence that you are against it primarily because you don’t want homosexuality normalized. And that’s the same reason that homosexuals care about gay marriage: they want normalization.
I’m for gay marriage because I believe that homosexuality is an immutable characteristic and because gays, including people I am friends with and related to, have been attacked, assaulted and victimized merely because of this immutable characteristic. Treating homosexuality as something that is “abhorrent” and shunned makes it easier for bullies and thugs to continue this behavior. My son is 5 and if he turns out to be gay I do not want him to feel like he’s an outcast, constantly in fear of attacks, and forced to live in the closet to succeed professionally, merely because of the way he was born.
I realize that assaults and attacks are already illegal, but I believe that the primary thing that reduces these events generally isn’t the law, it is the normalization of homosexuality. Things, in my opinion, are getting better in this regard precisely because of the push for normalization. Dick Cheney realized this too when he was forced to deal with the issue directly and he couldn’t look his daughter in the face if he continued to oppose gay marriage.
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business. But in my view, the state doesn’t have any business telling gays and lesbians that their sexual orientation isn’t “natural” or that they should not be allowed to choose and marry a mate consistent with their pre-disposed, sexual orientation.
So, my reason for supporting gay marriage is that I think it will help normalize homosexuality and make the world a less shitty place for 5 to 20 percent of the population and at the same time it won’t harm or impose any undue burden on the remaining 80-95% of the population.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business.[/quote]
I never said gay people are “abhorrent.” I said the act of sodomy is “abhorrent.” And yes, I can look anyone in the eye - gay, straight or otherwise - and tell them that I think sodomy is abhorrent.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
So, my reason for supporting gay marriage is that I think it will help normalize homosexuality…
[/quote]
And now we get to the heart of the issue.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business.[/quote]
I never said gay people are “abhorrent.” I said the act of sodomy is “abhorrent.” And yes, I can look anyone in the eye - gay, straight or otherwise - and tell them that I think sodomy is abhorrent.[/quote]
What about blowjobs?do you find them abhorrent?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, why do you not want it to be criminalized?
How do you determine which sins should be made illegal and which to keep legal?[/quote]
I second this question.[/quote]
You might want to ask it in one of the religion threads.
[/quote]
If there wasn’t a valid (at least to you) for opposing gay marriage would you support it? No?!?
So why not answer the question I posed as it relates to your non-secular argument against gay marriage.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business.[/quote]
I never said gay people are “abhorrent.” I said the act of sodomy is “abhorrent.” And yes, I can look anyone in the eye - gay, straight or otherwise - and tell them that I think sodomy is abhorrent.[/quote]
What about blowjobs?do you find them abhorrent?[/quote]
No. Why do you ask?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
why do you not want it to be criminalized?
[/quote]
Why do you assume they don’t want it criminalized?[/quote]
Because sloth at least as stated as such
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business.[/quote]
I never said gay people are “abhorrent.” I said the act of sodomy is “abhorrent.” And yes, I can look anyone in the eye - gay, straight or otherwise - and tell them that I think sodomy is abhorrent.[/quote]
What about blowjobs?do you find them abhorrent?[/quote]
No. Why do you ask?[/quote]
Trying to figure out why you think anal sex even between a man and a woman is abhorrent. I thought perhaps it’s due to the fact that it doesn’t lead to pregnancy.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Receiving crime victims’ recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
[/quote]
Okay lets go with this one. First I am having trouble understanding why heterosexual marriage includes this. Can you explain that to me? If I can see a good reason for that which does not apply to gay marriage then I can understand more of why you are against it.[/quote]
Incentive…[/quote]
Incentive for what? And the answer is not marriage[/quote]
No, the answer is marriage.
[/quote]
And we will never answer, or we will lose the arguement
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business.[/quote]
I never said gay people are “abhorrent.” I said the act of sodomy is “abhorrent.” And yes, I can look anyone in the eye - gay, straight or otherwise - and tell them that I think sodomy is abhorrent.[/quote]
well really who cares what you think, are you the only person in the world ?
I imagine there are other blaring examples , but this thread is stupid as are Sloth and Sex Machine . defending the indefensible ,exercising their their God given Moral Authority
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, why do you not want it to be criminalized?
How do you determine which sins should be made illegal and which to keep legal?[/quote]
I second this question.[/quote]
You might want to ask it in one of the religion threads.
[/quote]
If there wasn’t a valid (at least to you) for opposing gay marriage would you support it? No?!?
So why not answer the question I posed as it relates to your non-secular argument against gay marriage.
[/quote]
Go hijack another thread, adults are talking in this one.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I’ll cut through the bullshit/burden of proofs/and legal arguments:
Con-law problems aside, the real issue is the normalization of homosexuality in society. If you are against gay marriage, I have confidence that you are against it primarily because you don’t want homosexuality normalized. And that’s the same reason that homosexuals care about gay marriage: they want normalization.
I’m for gay marriage because I believe that homosexuality is an immutable characteristic and because gays, including people I am friends with and related to, have been attacked, assaulted and victimized merely because of this immutable characteristic. Treating homosexuality as something that is “abhorrent” and shunned makes it easier for bullies and thugs to continue this behavior. My son is 5 and if he turns out to be gay I do not want him to feel like he’s an outcast, constantly in fear of attacks, and forced to live in the closet to succeed professionally, merely because of the way he was born.
I realize that assaults and attacks are already illegal, but I believe that the primary thing that reduces these events generally isn’t the law, it is the normalization of homosexuality. Things, in my opinion, are getting better in this regard precisely because of the push for normalization. Dick Cheney realized this too when he was forced to deal with the issue directly and he couldn’t look his daughter in the face if he continued to oppose gay marriage.
If you can look a gay son or daughter in the eye and tell them that they are “abhorrent” or deviant because of they way they were born, then I guess that’s your business. But in my view, the state doesn’t have any business telling gays and lesbians that their sexual orientation isn’t “natural” or that they should not be allowed to choose and marry a mate consistent with their pre-disposed, sexual orientation.
So, my reason for supporting gay marriage is that I think it will help normalize homosexuality and make the world a less shitty place for 5 to 20 percent of the population and at the same time it won’t harm or impose any undue burden on the remaining 80-95% of the population.
[/quote]
You didn’t really make any legal arguments, but to your larger point - I appreciate your candor. This is precisely the reason gay marriage advocates want gay marriage - it serves as a kind of cultural self-esteem project for the gay community.
Gay marriage doesn’t solve rational, pressing public policy problems - it serves to satisfy an emotional need for a cultural symbol.
It isn’t reason-based, it is emotion-based. That is the way it has always been. Thanks for crystalliziing that and dispensing with the other distractions.
Is that a sound basis for enacting public policy? Of course not. But at least the conversation about gay marriage can be honest.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Go hijack another thread, adults are talking in this one.[/quote]
Yes, this highlights the other problem with gay marriage advocates - they self-select the arguments they think they want to defend against, and they whistle past all the hard ones.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Go hijack another thread, adults are talking in this one.[/quote]
Yes, this highlights the other problem with gay marriage advocates - they self-select the arguments they think they want to defend against, and they whistle past all the hard ones.[/quote]
Seriously. Deal with the argument that’s been made. I’m not chasing down theraj’s and suffiandy meandering questions and arguments. If they honestly believe they have a point that they’ll eventually arrive at, great. Then cut out the bizarre hypotheticals, the question chains, and get to it. Until then, this thread has run it’s course.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Go hijack another thread, adults are talking in this one.[/quote]
Yes, this highlights the other problem with gay marriage advocates - they self-select the arguments they think they want to defend against, and they whistle past all the hard ones.[/quote]
Please clearly state all the hard issues you claim people that advocate gay marriage whistle past ?
or you can bump the post where you have made such claims
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, why do you not want it to be criminalized?
How do you determine which sins should be made illegal and which to keep legal?[/quote]
I second this question.[/quote]
You might want to ask it in one of the religion threads.
[/quote]
If there wasn’t a valid (at least to you) for opposing gay marriage would you support it? No?!?
So why not answer the question I posed as it relates to your non-secular argument against gay marriage.
[/quote]
Go hijack another thread, adults are talking in this one.
[/quote]
We already spent two whole threads discussing your secular “argument”
Are you unable to entertain a different talking point? Sad
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, why do you not want it to be criminalized?
How do you determine which sins should be made illegal and which to keep legal?[/quote]
I second this question.[/quote]
You might want to ask it in one of the religion threads.
[/quote]
If there wasn’t a valid (at least to you) for opposing gay marriage would you support it? No?!?
So why not answer the question I posed as it relates to your non-secular argument against gay marriage.
[/quote]
Go hijack another thread, adults are talking in this one.
[/quote]
We already spent two whole threads discussing your secular “argument”
Are you unable to entertain a different talking point? Sad[/quote]
What talking point? This is a thread about gay marriage. Hijack haven is that-a-way!