Gay Marriage: Traditional Marriage Predates State and Church

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
it seems gays are hurting no one but themselves.[/quote]

Incorrect. They hurt themselves physically and emotionally and the rest of us financially. Tens of millions of dollars are spent annually not just in health care for homosexuals, but also in research to prevent AIDS.

[/quote]

Don’t tell me we’re spending $$ for gays.[/quote]

We’re spending money for gays. Expenditures are rising for two different reasons. First, is the education that is claimed to be needed (and never seems to do much good). The second should be obvious, health care costs for those who suffer from HIV and full blown AIDS. There are various estimates as to the total costs but they are indeed into the ten’s of millions as I stated.

One alone SF has recently spent almost 18 million dollars in their own fight against AIDS. Granted they have a larger problem than most cities but then again it’s because of the enormous homosexual population, which of course proves my point.

82

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:
Our society is becoming too tolerant. They start teaching about homosexuality in elementary school. There are kids in my daughter’s middle school that say they are gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual. Come on, they are kids. Let them just enjoy their childhood.

Children need a mom and a dad. Both are extremely important.

[/quote]

You made a GREAT point. We have been accepting everything under the sun. Why though? Because it fits with our social movement. This has been discussed in other threads, but…why not incest? Or Pedophilia? Hey, if I’m BORN with a certain sexual attraction, is it REALLY my fault?[/quote]

Anything goes in our society. It might not be considered pedophilia but 12 and 13 year old children are having sex. It is disgusting. You have 12 year old boys addicted to porn. So their whole perception of sex is messed up before they are even in a loving relationship. [/quote]

Yeah. Because we didn’t have playboy’s and penthouse when we were 12. And the generations before that didn’t have girlie mags and porn. Try again.[/quote]

If you can’t see how porn is destroying our culture and families than nothing I say will change your mind. I could give you many links to the studies of the destruction that porn causes but you are too closed minded so I won’t bother.

Many women consider porn adultery. You are bringing other women into the relationship. You turn the woman into just an object that you can use while fantasying about other women.

Yes - there have been girlie magazines around for a long time. But internet has taken porn to a whole new level. Men spend hours each day viewing it. They would rather watch porn and masturbate than meet a real woman. It is pathetic.[/quote]

That doesn’t make it (the stance on porn) either the most valid or the least valid; it’s simply a different perspective, and I would argue the attitude people have it more a reflection of themselves and their faith in their partner’s behavior.

If a woman thinks it’s adultery, I could argue that she’s insecure about her man seeing another woman, what is probably a FICTIONAL character (i.e. not a true threat in the sense of adulterous relations).

And ZEB…

Did you seriously just say that AIDS is a homosexual problem that we’re paying for (in terms of research) ? Some of you have your heads so far up your asses that it would be EMBARRASSING to even think you would attempt to introduce your arguments in an academic debate.

And Brother Chris…

There’s nothing wrong with faith but everything wrong with being self-righteous. You attempting to use your scripture as the final truth in any debate such as this…well, there’s a word for it and it rhymes with Smogma. You can believe your scripture, but when you tell others that there value systems (not based on your scripture) are flawed, that is self-righteous.

This thread is ridiculous.

83

[quote]forlife wrote:
Any time you hear people making broad overgeneralizations about an entire class of people, it’s a good idea to take it with a grain of salt.[/quote]

It’s not an overgeneralization when the CDC statistics demonstrate that the single most dangerous lifestyle (more deadly than even smoking or being an alcoholic) is being a practicing homosexual.

Yes, you’ve made that claim repeatedly on these threads. And as someone who is supposed to understand science you know that this is anecdotal evidence. Pretty weak stuff in the face of the cold facts that have been displayed.

Ah, there’s that word. The one you run to when the facts are just too difficult to face. You have not changed a bit. Once again, you and your partner and any other anecdotal evidence that you can offer means pretty much nothing in the face of the evidence brought about by the CDC.

And drive up health care costs in various ways…you forgot that part.

Good for you, facing the truth is always a good thing. And that is exactly why we have such dismal statistics regarding homosexual health in the US and beyond.

No, but you see other statistics which are also pretty scary. Such as domestic abuse and alcoholism. I could go on but you get the idea.

I agree as long as it is not practiced there is nothing wrong with it at all

Really now? What do you say to the almost 40% of homosexuals who seek reparative therapy and walk away from homosexuality? Are you still denying that they exist?

Nonsense, the fact remains that the homosexual community has THE highest rate of suicide, anxiety, depression, STD’s and a nice long laundry list of other horrible occurences. You think this is all a coincidence? Think again!

84

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

And ZEB…

Did you seriously just say that AIDS is a homosexual problem that we’re paying for (in terms of research) ? Some of you have your heads so far up your asses that it would be EMBARRASSING to even think you would attempt to introduce your arguments in an academic debate.[/quote]

What I’m saying is that if it were not for homosexual men the AIDS problem would be tiny.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm

I know this doesn’t quite meet the standards of what Hollywood and the media would like you to think but it happens to be the truth.

85

You need to learn to NOT focus on a single dimension of the argument.

Can you tell what would happen if everyone took that statistic to heart? I’ll give you a hint: discrimination.

Your statement would FUEL discrimination. It is ethically irresponsible to spout that shit, regardless of what the numbers say; the bottom line is that AIDS is a condition that can affect anyone regardless of orientation. We need to all be educated on it and we should care about the research.

86

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

And ZEB…

Did you seriously just say that AIDS is a homosexual problem that we’re paying for (in terms of research) ? Some of you have your heads so far up your asses that it would be EMBARRASSING to even think you would attempt to introduce your arguments in an academic debate.
[/quote]

I essentially stated that. There is no “aids epidemic”. Aids is overwhelmingly limited to the risk groups. It is not a significant heterosexual risk.

87

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Any time you hear people making broad overgeneralizations about an entire class of people, it’s a good idea to take it with a grain of salt.

My partner and I are 100% monogamous. You don’t hear homophobes talking about us, because we and the other gay couples we consider friends disprove their overgeneralizations. We go to the grocery store, pay our bills, wash our dishes, and watch our kids play basketball like anyone else.

I do think that gay men are, on average, more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors. Part of that is due to it being two men; you don’t see the same statistics with lesbian couples. Part of it is also due to social marginalization, shame, and discrimination, which thankfully is getting better with time.

The point is that there is nothing inherently unhealthy about being gay. I’m pretty healthy by all standards, and I’m thankful for that. I’m far better off, in fact, than when I was trying to live as a heterosexual. Denying and repressing your sexual orientation is unhealthy. It was true for me, and it has proven true in research, which has shown that gays trying to change their orientation have double the risk of depression, anxiety, alcohol/drug abuse, and suicidal thoughts.[/quote]

[/quote]

Problem is bigots like Brother Chris cite statistics on the incidence of depression, etc in homosexuals to try to “prove” that homosexuality is “wrong”, or that gays are “diseased” or “disordered”.

When, as you point out, the context of being told your orientation is sinful and made ashamed of it is the root of those problems.[/quote]

Exactly, which is why the research I noted earlier shows a 100% increase in risk for those negative outcomes gays are blamed for (anxiety, depression, drug/alcohol abuse, and suicidal thoughts) as a RESULT of trying to change their orientation. Those that accept their orientation effectively halve that risk. Gays wouldn’t try to change their orientation if it weren’t for the bigotry and negative messaging they experience.

I can provide quotes from every major medical and mental health organization stating that there is nothing unhealthy about being gay, and that gays shouldn’t try to change their orientation, but it wouldn’t make any difference. I’ve posted the quotes in this forum numerous times, but they are inevitably dismissed, as if every major health organization in the country is so biased that their conclusions based on 40 years of research don’t matter.

88

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

And ZEB…

Did you seriously just say that AIDS is a homosexual problem that we’re paying for (in terms of research) ? Some of you have your heads so far up your asses that it would be EMBARRASSING to even think you would attempt to introduce your arguments in an academic debate.
[/quote]

I essentially stated that. There is no “aids epidemic”. Aids is overwhelmingly limited to the risk groups. It is not a significant heterosexual risk.[/quote]

Actually, in Africa black women are by far the highest risk group for getting aids. It’s a horrible disease that everyone should be aware of, and take precautions to avoid (just like any other STD).

89

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
You need to learn to NOT focus on a single dimension of the argument.

Can you tell what would happen if everyone took that statistic to heart? I’ll give you a hint: discrimination.

Your statement would FUEL discrimination. It is ethically irresponsible to spout that shit, regardless of what the numbers say; the bottom line is that AIDS is a condition that can affect anyone regardless of orientation. We need to all be educated on it and we should care about the research.[/quote]

I want to tell you from the bottom of my heart that what you just said was never said better by any politically correct speaker on this site. Very nice, you fall in quite well with today’s pc standards. But let’s leave the euphemisms out. Here’s what you really mean:

“Stop telling the truth we have to pretend that those statistics don’t exist. If everyone new this they’d realize that HIV is primarily a male homosexual problem.”

In other words you want me to stop telling the truth.

I submit to you that the truth is the only thing that will help these poor people. Enabling them to continue in their wreckless lifestyle has done nothing but worsen the situation. Which by the way is what happens to everything that becomes too politically correct to discuss openly.

90

[quote]forlife wrote:

Exactly, which is why the research I noted earlier shows a 100% increase in risk for those negative outcomes gays are blamed for (anxiety, depression, drug/alcohol abuse, and suicidal thoughts) as a RESULT of trying to change their orientation. Those that accept their orientation effectively halve that risk. Gays wouldn’t try to change their orientation if it weren’t for the bigotry and negative messaging they experience.[/quote]

More misleading information from forlife. In the Netherlands gay marriage has been legal for about 10 years now. But guess what? The rate of STD’s, anxiety, depression and suicide have not gone down. Now why do you suppose that is? And this is in a society where the average person couldn’t care less about gay marriage or homosexuality. The problem is much deeper forlife. It’s not about how people react to them, it’s about how they react to themselves. And that doesn’t matter whether the society is open like the Netherlands or more closed like the US.

91

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Bishop Thomas Wenski wrote:

Marriage has been primarily about the raising of children (who seem to be hardwired to be best raised by a father and a mother who are married to each other).
[/quote]

Evidence? For the hard-wiring part?

I could not disagree more. See following video.

92

anecdotal but pretty powerful.

93

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Bishop Thomas Wenski wrote:

Marriage has been primarily about the raising of children (who seem to be hardwired to be best raised by a father and a mother who are married to each other).
[/quote]

Evidence? For the hard-wiring part?

I could not disagree more. See following video.
[/quote]

You are in no position to offer up any better evidence than someone standing before a state legislature and pontificating? All the traditional marriage people have as evidence is 5000 years of child rearing. Come on now stop it.

94

I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.

95

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.[/quote]

What ain’t gonna fly is turning your back to the facts putting your fingers in your ears and shouting bigot. And the more you do that the less credibility you have.

96

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.[/quote]

What ain’t gonna fly is turning your back to the facts putting your fingers in your ears and shouting bigot. And the more you do that the less credibility you have.[/quote]

Yeah, and the more you point at those who live a risky lifestyle instead of pointing at those who make YOU pay for it, the less credibility you have.

97

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.[/quote]

What ain’t gonna fly is turning your back to the facts putting your fingers in your ears and shouting bigot. And the more you do that the less credibility you have.[/quote]

Yeah, and the more you point at those who live a risky lifestyle instead of pointing at those who make YOU pay for it, the less credibility you have.

[/quote]

And the more you blame the government instead of people taking blame for their own actions the less credibility you have.

(Great, now none of us has any credibility -)

98

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.[/quote]

What ain’t gonna fly is turning your back to the facts putting your fingers in your ears and shouting bigot. And the more you do that the less credibility you have.[/quote]

Yeah, and the more you point at those who live a risky lifestyle instead of pointing at those who make YOU pay for it, the less credibility you have.

[/quote]

The issue, I think, actually, is context. Facts can’t be biased, but facts can be used to support a bias. I guarantee I could find disparaging “facts” about blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, women, men, tall people, midgets, blue eyed, red haired, elderly… any group I wanted.

It’s not the “facts” I ignore, its the people who cherry pick the ones they prefer (and present them entirely out of context) so they can paint a certain group of people as inherently “bad”.

99

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.[/quote]

What ain’t gonna fly is turning your back to the facts putting your fingers in your ears and shouting bigot. And the more you do that the less credibility you have.[/quote]

Yeah, and the more you point at those who live a risky lifestyle instead of pointing at those who make YOU pay for it, the less credibility you have.

[/quote]

And the more you blame the government instead of people taking blame for their own actions the less credibility you have.

(Great, now none of us has any credibility -)[/quote]

Why would I want to blame anybody if I do not have to pay for it?

Why would I care?

100

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I love how anti-gay marriage advocates LOVE to predicate their arguments with "I know the liberals are all gonna call me a bigot, but thats ok because I’m not and they just call everybody who disagrees with them a bigot.

That way, later in the conversation, they (and their supporters) can freely reveal their strong anti-gay bias… and when you point out their bigotry, they have the prerecorded go-to of “Oh Great! you pulled the bigot card, I KNEW you were gonna do that! You just call everyone a bigot! You’re a bigot against rapists and murderers!”

Sorry guys, ain’t gonna fly.[/quote]

What ain’t gonna fly is turning your back to the facts putting your fingers in your ears and shouting bigot. And the more you do that the less credibility you have.[/quote]

Yeah, and the more you point at those who live a risky lifestyle instead of pointing at those who make YOU pay for it, the less credibility you have.

[/quote]

And the more you blame the government instead of people taking blame for their own actions the less credibility you have.

(Great, now none of us has any credibility -)[/quote]

Why would I want to blame anybody if I do not have to pay for it?

Why would I care?

[/quote]

I see, so with you at least it comes down to how much money the government takes from you to pay for the risky behavior of others. Well, I can’t disagree with that so much. I too resent the fact that I have to pay for others who make poor choices. But there is a humanitarian side of me that wishes to help these people if I could. I don’t like seeing people suffer, regardless of the group or reason.