[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
it seems gays are hurting no one but themselves.[/quote]
Incorrect. They hurt themselves physically and emotionally and the rest of us financially. Tens of millions of dollars are spent annually not just in health care for homosexuals, but also in research to prevent AIDS.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Discussed to death in other threads. Yes, it’s great if a child can be raised by healthy, competent biological parents. However, there are millions of children with abusive parents, deceased parents, etc. who are far better off being raised by loving, committed adoptive gay parents than staying in a toxic family situation, or being raised by an institution.
[/quote]
This is a patently false self-serving post. There are no long-term studies to prove that children are better off living with two homosexuals. Furthermore, there is no proof that being homosexual is genetic. That means that perhaps (just maybe) children being raised by two homosexuals would have a much higher degree of becoming a homosexual. Certainly until we know how one becomes a homosexual (or why) we should never put children in the care of homosexuals.
Stop the propaganda forlife it’s really getting old.[/quote]
Not being a devils advocate, I am honestly curious, why does homosexuality=bad? [/quote]
It’s bad on a lot of levels, procreation probably being at the top of the list. But let’s look at the governments own CDC statistics shall we?
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm
[/quote]
Wow, I was not aware of that. I am pretty libertarian, so I don’t personally feel its the governments business. Do you think legalizing gay marriage would see those statistics increase?
[/quote]
Don’t feel badly no one is aware of those ugly statistics. The PC media wants everyone to believe that homosexual men lead one big Will & Grace lifestyle. But the reality is quite the opposite. In fact, If it were not for male homosexuals there would be no AIDS epidemic. And that is a fact that the media and powerful homosexual organizations do not want you to know.
Two homosexuals saying they’re married does not change a thing. I can produce other statistics which clearly demonstrate that even in relationships where two homosexual say they are monogamous they each have 5 or 6 other sexual encounters on the side. And this also holds true for areas of the world where homosexual marriage has been legalized for many years, places like the Netherlands for example. In the Netherlands the rate of suicide, depression, anxiety and STD’s for homosexual men are as high as in areas where homosexual marriage is illegal. In other words Gay marriage solved nothing.
[/quote]
Those statistics are scary.
They are too busy desensitizing us to homosexuality. They certainly do not want to give us the facts.
Glee is a perfect example. A cute little singing and dancing show. It is total trash now. Not only are there two gay boys, there is two cheerleaders that sleep together. They trash conservatives and the Catholic Church regularly. I am disgusted with it. [/quote]
That’s the liberal media very busy at work demeaning traditional values.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
homosexual men lead one big Will & Grace lifestyle.
[/quote]
Lol, anyone ever see the statistics on domestic and sexual abuse in homosexual households? Anyone see the average marriage length between gay couples?[/quote]
Yeah, I totally can’t see where anyone would call you guys bigots. I mean, ZEB is only making a sweeping generalization about a diverse group of people, and Chris is only trying to bring up any “facts” he can find that cast a negative light on that same group.
Now if the conversation was
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
black men lead one big Menace 2 Society lifestyle.
[/quote]
Lol, anyone ever see the statistics on domestic and sexual abuse in black households? Anyone see the average crime rates in black neighborhoods?[/quote]
people would likely say y’all were bein just a touch racist. But since homophobia is en vogue now (whereas racism is so 60 years ago), you get a (mostly) free pass on those generalizations and biased “fact finding”. [/quote]
Didn’t take you long to drag out the word bigot, nice job. Look I know you’re a left wing radical but stats are stats. If you don’t like them then have some long talks with the many homosexual men that create them. Unless you think the CDC has made up these numbers then you have no right to call anyone a bigot who quotes them.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
Children need a mom and a dad. Both are extremely important.
[/quote]
I completely disagree with that, there are countless examples of people raised by single parents coming up fine /nitpicking[/quote]
Yeah, and people use the thief on the cross as a rule as well, what both have in common is they are both exceptions. Statistically and traditionally children are better off with both mother and father (even better with elder family members in the household, and even better with multiple siblings). [/quote]
Im with you BC, but better off does not mean need at all.
[quote]limburg wrote:
Its all about greed. Homosexuals want the benefits that hetero marriages give them. Tax breaks, health care etc.
[/quote]
That is the primary motivation. But there is a certain validation that they are looking for. And I remember like it was yesterday that all they wanted was tolerance. Funny how that slippery slope suddenly appeared.
Zeb,
If homosexual promiscuity causes so many problems, why not encourage gay marriage? What harm could come from a stable, monogamous homosexual union?
[quote]doogie wrote:
Zeb,
If homosexual promiscuity causes so many problems, why not encourage gay marriage? What harm could come from a stable, monogamous homosexual union?[/quote]
That is the prevailing logic among the homosexual community and the liberals. However, when you look closely at statistics you find that there is virtually no such thing as a stable monogamous relationship. I have all the stats from debating this with forlife for about 40 pages. It seems that even those who claim to be in monogamous relationships still have 4-5 sexual encounters outside that relationship. Redefining marriage to include homosexuals will not make them monogamous.
Also, in the Netherlands where gay marriage has been legal for ten years we don’t see any improvement in behavior. STD’s are just as high as before along with depression, suicide etc. Trying to change a system in hopes that it will change behavior just doesn’t work, at least not in the case of homosexuals.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
I’m not even reviewing the references because any suggestion that this earth is not under stress from our population is patently false. We’re not an endangered species by any means, but the earth, with it’s LIMITED resources, is certainly endangered. And my point was not relative to good parents, bad parents or gay parents, so let that strawman burn now. [/quote]
We do not have a resource problem. We have a resource management problem. You brought under population. Not me.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
Our society is becoming too tolerant. They start teaching about homosexuality in elementary school. There are kids in my daughter’s middle school that say they are gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual. Come on, they are kids. Let them just enjoy their childhood.
Children need a mom and a dad. Both are extremely important.
[/quote]
You made a GREAT point. We have been accepting everything under the sun. Why though? Because it fits with our social movement. This has been discussed in other threads, but…why not incest? Or Pedophilia? Hey, if I’m BORN with a certain sexual attraction, is it REALLY my fault?[/quote]
Anything goes in our society. It might not be considered pedophilia but 12 and 13 year old children are having sex. It is disgusting. You have 12 year old boys addicted to porn. So their whole perception of sex is messed up before they are even in a loving relationship. [/quote]
Yeah. Because we didn’t have playboy’s and penthouse when we were 12. And the generations before that didn’t have girlie mags and porn. Try again.[/quote]
If you can’t see how porn is destroying our culture and families than nothing I say will change your mind. I could give you many links to the studies of the destruction that porn causes but you are too closed minded so I won’t bother.
Many women consider porn adultery. You are bringing other women into the relationship. You turn the woman into just an object that you can use while fantasying about other women.
Yes - there have been girlie magazines around for a long time. But internet has taken porn to a whole new level. Men spend hours each day viewing it. They would rather watch porn and masturbate than meet a real woman. It is pathetic.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
The problem is that with all this tolerance, we are settling for less than perfect.[/quote]
And exactly when did “perfect” exist? I’m curious.
Perhaps while we’re waging this war against “tolerance”, maybe we could outlaw divorce, infidelity and all the other ugly realities of marriage and family.[/quote]
Getting married and divorcing should certainly be harder. The problem is you want to accept the horrible realities. I want to change them. And when something is wrong, we should not be afraid to say it is wrong.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
it seems gays are hurting no one but themselves.[/quote]
Incorrect. They hurt themselves physically and emotionally and the rest of us financially. Tens of millions of dollars are spent annually not just in health care for homosexuals, but also in research to prevent AIDS.
[/quote]
Don’t tell me we’re spending $$ for gays. The public was scared into believing this was an “epidemic” - that was a lie.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
Our society is becoming too tolerant. They start teaching about homosexuality in elementary school. There are kids in my daughter’s middle school that say they are gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual. Come on, they are kids. Let them just enjoy their childhood.
Children need a mom and a dad. Both are extremely important.
[/quote]
You made a GREAT point. We have been accepting everything under the sun. Why though? Because it fits with our social movement. This has been discussed in other threads, but…why not incest? Or Pedophilia? Hey, if I’m BORN with a certain sexual attraction, is it REALLY my fault?[/quote]
Anything goes in our society. It might not be considered pedophilia but 12 and 13 year old children are having sex. It is disgusting. You have 12 year old boys addicted to porn. So their whole perception of sex is messed up before they are even in a loving relationship. [/quote]
Yeah. Because we didn’t have playboy’s and penthouse when we were 12. And the generations before that didn’t have girlie mags and porn. Try again.[/quote]
If you can’t see how porn is destroying our culture and families than nothing I say will change your mind. I could give you many links to the studies of the destruction that porn causes but you are too closed minded so I won’t bother.
Many women consider porn adultery. You are bringing other women into the relationship. You turn the woman into just an object that you can use while fantasying about other women.
Yes - there have been girlie magazines around for a long time. But internet has taken porn to a whole new level. Men spend hours each day viewing it. They would rather watch porn and masturbate than meet a real woman. It is pathetic.[/quote]
It’s funny, but I get the distinct impression that the only one that is “closed minded” here is you. Thus, end discussion between us.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
The problem is that with all this tolerance, we are settling for less than perfect.[/quote]
And exactly when did “perfect” exist? I’m curious.
Perhaps while we’re waging this war against “tolerance”, maybe we could outlaw divorce, infidelity and all the other ugly realities of marriage and family.[/quote]
Getting married and divorcing should certainly be harder. The problem is you want to accept the horrible realities. I want to change them. And when something is wrong, we should not be afraid to say it is wrong. [/quote]
You made my point when you said “reality”. If you want to take away woman’s rights, by all mean lead the charge and put your $$ and time where your opinions are. You’re not even changing my mind here, how the hell you going to “change them”.
Please humor me and outline your plan for change. Sounding an awful like Obama.
[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I’m with you for the most part, but for some people perfection is unattainable and reaching for it would ruin other aspects of their lives. Think about someone living in Bedstuy Brooklyn, working a couple of jobs to make ends meet and be able to feed and clothe their children, the time to properly raise those kids is probably incredibly hard to find.
^I just realized how far off topic that is, apologies.
I was raised by a single mother, and when I started acting like a jackass in middle school, I went to a military academy. That did the trick for me.[/quote]
There will always be situations where the perfect family is not possible. Illness of a parent, death or abusive relationships. The problem is that single parenthood is becoming the norm. People give up on marriage too quickly.
You were very lucky to have a great mom. Your mom did not just give up and settle for welfare. She worked her butt off for you. Military school must have been good for you since you became a marine. Thanks for protecting us. She must be very proud of you.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Train4sport wrote:
From a religious perspective: When you follow the guidelines of a user’s manual for a given product, it results in a more satisfying experience with the product. Although it may not always make sense to the user, the manufacturer has a good reason for the guidelines that are given. I believe the Bible is a user’s manual for life. God has created us and understands our emotional, psychological, and physical needs better than we do. Basically, sin consists of things that are forbidden because they are damaging to us and are outside of the parameters in which we were designed to live. Marriage and sex were designed to be between man and woman, and thus anything outside of that is harmful in some way. I believe that homosexuals are not condemned by God for being attracted to members of the same sex, they are condemned for the homosexual acts they commit. Along the same lines, heterosexuals are not condemned for being attracted to members of the opposite sex but are in trouble if they engage in pre-marital sex or adultery. The temptation is not the sin. It becomes sin when we choose the wrong way of dealing with the temptation. [/quote]
Can you provide me the reference from the user’s manual that endorses the institution of marriage as practiced in our culture. [/quote]
Book of Genesis…and Jesus said something like, no man shall separate what G-d has bound.[/quote]
I’ll simply repeat my question. Where is the endorsement of marriage as practiced in our culture. [/quote]
“it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him” (Gen. 2:18)
“a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh” (Gen. 2:24)
As a Catholic, marriage is a holy vocation. It is my job to get my husband to heaven. I hate seeing the destruction of marriage in our country. I have no problems with homosexuals but I will not celebrate their sinful acts by supporting gay marriage. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I do believe that homosexuals should be treated with respect. I have a homosexual brother and a lesbian niece. I love and pray for both or them.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Train4sport wrote:
From a religious perspective: When you follow the guidelines of a user’s manual for a given product, it results in a more satisfying experience with the product. Although it may not always make sense to the user, the manufacturer has a good reason for the guidelines that are given. I believe the Bible is a user’s manual for life. God has created us and understands our emotional, psychological, and physical needs better than we do. Basically, sin consists of things that are forbidden because they are damaging to us and are outside of the parameters in which we were designed to live. Marriage and sex were designed to be between man and woman, and thus anything outside of that is harmful in some way. I believe that homosexuals are not condemned by God for being attracted to members of the same sex, they are condemned for the homosexual acts they commit. Along the same lines, heterosexuals are not condemned for being attracted to members of the opposite sex but are in trouble if they engage in pre-marital sex or adultery. The temptation is not the sin. It becomes sin when we choose the wrong way of dealing with the temptation. [/quote]
Can you provide me the reference from the user’s manual that endorses the institution of marriage as practiced in our culture. [/quote]
Book of Genesis…and Jesus said something like, no man shall separate what G-d has bound.[/quote]
I’ll simply repeat my question. Where is the endorsement of marriage as practiced in our culture. [/quote]
“it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him” (Gen. 2:18)
“a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh” (Gen. 2:24)
As a Catholic, marriage is a holy vocation. It is my job to get my husband to heaven. I hate seeing the destruction of marriage in our country. I have no problems with homosexuals but I will not celebrate their sinful acts by supporting gay marriage. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I do believe that homosexuals should be treated with respect. I have a homosexual brother and a lesbian niece. I love and pray for both or them.
[/quote]
Explain polygamy in the bible.
And, I’m sure they are relieved you are praying for them. I’m sure in no time soon, the brother will stop liking men, and the niece will shun women- because of your prayers.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
The problem is that with all this tolerance, we are settling for less than perfect.[/quote]
And exactly when did “perfect” exist? I’m curious.
Perhaps while we’re waging this war against “tolerance”, maybe we could outlaw divorce, infidelity and all the other ugly realities of marriage and family.[/quote]
Getting married and divorcing should certainly be harder. The problem is you want to accept the horrible realities. I want to change them. And when something is wrong, we should not be afraid to say it is wrong. [/quote]
You made my point when you said “reality”. If you want to take away woman’s rights, by all mean lead the charge and put your $$ and time where your opinions are. You’re not even changing my mind here, how the hell you going to “change them”.
Please humor me and outline your plan for change. Sounding an awful like Obama.[/quote]
By making it more difficult to marry and divorce takes away woman’s rights?
I can’t change the world. I can only be there for my friends and family. But I will not hide from the Truth and just accept evil in this world.
You would not understand any of the things I do because we are worlds apart in our thinking.
Any time you hear people making broad overgeneralizations about an entire class of people, it’s a good idea to take it with a grain of salt.
My partner and I are 100% monogamous. You don’t hear homophobes talking about us, because we and the other gay couples we consider friends disprove their overgeneralizations. We go to the grocery store, pay our bills, wash our dishes, and watch our kids play basketball like anyone else.
I do think that gay men are, on average, more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors. Part of that is due to it being two men; you don’t see the same statistics with lesbian couples. Part of it is also due to social marginalization, shame, and discrimination, which thankfully is getting better with time.
The point is that there is nothing inherently unhealthy about being gay. I’m pretty healthy by all standards, and I’m thankful for that. I’m far better off, in fact, than when I was trying to live as a heterosexual. Denying and repressing your sexual orientation is unhealthy. It was true for me, and it has proven true in research, which has shown that gays trying to change their orientation have double the risk of depression, anxiety, alcohol/drug abuse, and suicidal thoughts.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Any time you hear people making broad overgeneralizations about an entire class of people, it’s a good idea to take it with a grain of salt.
My partner and I are 100% monogamous. You don’t hear homophobes talking about us, because we and the other gay couples we consider friends disprove their overgeneralizations. We go to the grocery store, pay our bills, wash our dishes, and watch our kids play basketball like anyone else.
I do think that gay men are, on average, more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors. Part of that is due to it being two men; you don’t see the same statistics with lesbian couples. Part of it is also due to social marginalization, shame, and discrimination, which thankfully is getting better with time.
The point is that there is nothing inherently unhealthy about being gay. I’m pretty healthy by all standards, and I’m thankful for that. I’m far better off, in fact, than when I was trying to live as a heterosexual. Denying and repressing your sexual orientation is unhealthy. It was true for me, and it has proven true in research, which has shown that gays trying to change their orientation have double the risk of depression, anxiety, alcohol/drug abuse, and suicidal thoughts.[/quote]
[/quote]
Problem is bigots like Brother Chris cite statistics on the incidence of depression, etc in homosexuals to try to “prove” that homosexuality is “wrong”, or that gays are “diseased” or “disordered”.
When, as you point out, the context of being told your orientation is sinful and made ashamed of it is the root of those problems.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
The problem is that with all this tolerance, we are settling for less than perfect.[/quote]
And exactly when did “perfect” exist? I’m curious.
Perhaps while we’re waging this war against “tolerance”, maybe we could outlaw divorce, infidelity and all the other ugly realities of marriage and family.[/quote]
Getting married and divorcing should certainly be harder. The problem is you want to accept the horrible realities. I want to change them. And when something is wrong, we should not be afraid to say it is wrong. [/quote]
You made my point when you said “reality”. If you want to take away woman’s rights, by all mean lead the charge and put your $$ and time where your opinions are. You’re not even changing my mind here, how the hell you going to “change them”.
Please humor me and outline your plan for change. Sounding an awful like Obama.[/quote]
By making it more difficult to marry and divorce takes away woman’s rights?
I can’t change the world. I can only be there for my friends and family. But I will not hide from the Truth and just accept evil in this world.
You would not understand any of the things I do because we are worlds apart in our thinking. [/quote]
That’s quite a plan! Can we assume that “making it more difficult to marry and divorce” is your materplan for perfection? Please explain, and outline your “plan”.