Gay Marriage: Traditional Marriage Predates State and Church

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
481

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

“Zeb is not an idiot. Zeb is thoughtful, argues in good faith, and has strong opinions”

…

What you seem to be mad about is that I don’t agree with you and I have the audacity of telling you so. So what? You take the intellectually lazy way out - “someone disagrees with me, they must be a bigot!”. It’s dull and stupid.

As for you, Mak, and Forlife - when you make dumb statements, bad arguments, and argue in bad faith, I’ll tell you so. Don’t like it? Go sit at the kids’ table.[/quote]

No, what I’m annoyed with is your “intellectually lazy” mindset of “someone disagrees with me, they must be stupid!”

Easy evidence that you defend Zeb. His arguments are so consistently bad that I usually just refuse to respond to him. But, since he usually comes down on the same side as you… he’s “thoughtful”. lawls.

482

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Setting aside the accuracy of your statement, it’s still wrong on its face - a “personal bias” (some moral disapproval of homosexuality, etc.) is not, is not, is not ipso facto homophobia or bigotry.[/quote]

Ok, so someone “thinks homosexuality is wrong” and decides gay marriage should not be legal on the grounds that they oppose homosexuality. Their arguments range from “the invisible man up in the sky says its bad” to “gays are depressed and suicidal more than straight people”, “if everyone were gay we’d all die”, and “deep down everybody knows being gay is wrong.” This is not bigoted?

Lets look again at that last one: “deep down everybody knows being gay is wrong” (since its what set all this off). Not only does the person making the claim not logically reason that homosexuality is “wrong”, but projects agreement with their conclusion on to every other person on the planet. Was this a “good argument” or an “intelligent thing to say”?

I’m just so fucking glad you speak out and tell people how stupid they are when they make bad arguments or say stupid things, Thunderbolt.

483

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

No, what I’m annoyed with is your “intellectually lazy” mindset of “someone disagrees with me, they must be stupid!”[/quote]

Enough whining, I don’t have that mindset - I come here expressly to engage people that have differing opinions than me. One of my great irks is that we don’t have that anymore here at PWI.

The problem, of course, is that we only seem to see (these days) extreme arguments that are too often just plain ridiculous. Either we have nothing but radical ideas (like the idea that Anarchy is a good idea) or bad faith arguing (you must be a bigot if you don’t agree with me). We don’t see moderate, smart debate about the real issues - we only see half-informed ideologues flapping their gums about the newest goofball idea they just got exicted about and one-issue zealots who won’t change the subject.

I am an enemy of all that, and I’ve said so a thousand times. And if it hurts your precious, precious feelings that I call you out for idiotic, sloppy thinking (“you’re all bigots!”), then that’s your problem to fix, not mine.

Once again, a lazy complaint out of you.

You wouldn’t know a bad argument if one bit you on the rump, so you frankly have no idea if Zeb is good, bad, or sideways. You’re a chump who got called down for being a chump. That’s it. It’s all over but the crying, Capped.

484

Oh, and disagreeing with Thunderbolt = whining, crying, bitching, etc. Cant forget that gem.

485

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

I’m just so fucking glad you speak out and tell people how stupid they are when they make bad arguments or say stupid things, Thunderbolt. [/quote]

By God, you are a galactic whiner, aren’t you?

I never said I policed every post; I simply said that if I felt so inclined, I’d speak up against what I thought to be bad arguments or hateful comments. I don’t sit around 24 hours a day as the PWI censor. In fact, even in threads I am participating in, I tend to skip most posts, and only aim for a particular few I am engaged in or catch my eye.

Stop whining. You are like a petulent child. I’m embarrassed for you.

486

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Oh, and disagreeing with Thunderbolt = whining, crying, bitching, etc. Cant forget that gem.[/quote]

Nope, whining, crying, bitching, etc. = whining, crying, bitching, etc. You should be well aware of this, since you might be PWI’s worst offender.

487

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

I’m just so fucking glad you speak out and tell people how stupid they are when they make bad arguments or say stupid things, Thunderbolt. [/quote]

By God, you are a galactic whiner, aren’t you?

I never said I policed every post; I simply said that if I felt so inclined, I’d speak up against what I thought to be bad arguments or hateful comments. I don’t sit around 24 hours a day as the PWI censor. In fact, even in threads I am participating in, I tend to skip most posts, and only aim for a particular few I am engaged in or catch my eye.

Stop whining. You are like a petulent child. I’m embarrassed for you.
[/quote]

So, bascially, you dont like me and want to hurl insults around (while bitching about the quality of the forums), and want to pretend that you’re doing it out of some noble duty to preserve integrity around here? Thats pretty much what I’m guessing - now go ahead and say I’m whining.

488

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Except the majority of my posts contain neither, making you an idiot or a liar. And you know lotsa big words, so liar it is.[/quote]

No, you’ve engaged in quite a few ad hominems in your day - i.e., my reply to your question about anything you have said that was “illogical”, your oft-repeated idiocy that anyone opposed to gay marriage must be a homophobe or a bigot. That is definitionally an ad hominem.

Because I am in the mood to help:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html[/quote]

I’ll ask again, since actually reading my posts isn’t your strong suit: how many posters here have opposed gay marriage and not shortly after revealed a personal bias against homosexuals?

You. BostonBarrister. Thats about it.

In every other case it seems to very quickly become clear that, for whatever reason, the poster is “against homosexuality” and they (oh my) just happen to support legislation which just happens to favor heterosexuals over homosexuals.

Of course, that doesn’t matter much to you. Whether or not they oppose gay marriage because they see it as simply falling outside the scope of the intent of marriage laws or they don’t want them gays thinkin’ their sinnin is ok… as long as they side with you, they are intelligent, thoughtful contributors. Small wonder that you continually attack me, Mak, Forlife, and other left leaning posters as stupid, yet rocket scientists like Mick28 and Zeb pass without remark.[/quote]

I’ve been reading along and certainly was going to remain uncharacteristically silent on this one. But since you mentioned my name I feel I should respond.

It seems that you’re not enjoying your well deserved trip to the proverbial woodshed eh? And on the way down to that well deserved beating you’re clutching everything and everyone in the process. Feebly trying to build a defense. Your latest attempt at defending your horrific remarks is just despicable. The truth of the matter is even if I were a homophobe, which I am most certainly not (I don’t know any homophobes that employee gay people, rent to gay people and have given money to help gays), how does using a homophobe remark compare with wishing death on someone and their family? Even a spaced out far left thinker like yourself has to concede that one.

Finally, I’ve been involved in as many debates on homosexuality on this board as anyone, with the exception of forlife. And because I am an outspoken opponent of gay marriage I am called a homophobe? To date I have never used any sort of homosexual slur, nor do I harbor hatred toward any class of people, how stupid that would be. I always felt that I win these debates on facts. I regularly offer quotes from the CDC and other well established data from reliable sources. Did you somehow miss that?

In light of the language you’ve used toward Christians I find it ironic that you would dare bring my name into this debate. It is you who has worn out the term “Sky Wizard” in its many forms. And it is always you who denigrates those of us who have faith in a higher being. You’ve described us on various occasions as idiots, fools, stupid and a number of other words and phrases at the same time disrespecting the God that we worship. Truth be told you are the most intolerant person on this board.

That you have finally been called on it for your latest piece of hate speech, wishing death by fire on another poster and his family, is not surprising. Do at least one thing right, take your beating like a man because you have no defense!

Zeb

489

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I regularly offer quotes from the CDC and other well established data from reliable sources. Did you somehow miss that? [/quote]

You regularly misinterpret data to draw false conclusions. Do you somehow not understand that?

You’re certainly not homophobic, ZEB, that argument we had way back where you defended the “eg-gay” movement and claimed you “just wanted to help them”… must be my imagination.

But since you dont use slurs, and instead call homosexuals mentally ill, you’re totally off the hook.

490

*ex-gay

491

Oh, and ZEB keeps harping that I “wished death on a man and his family”. Not quite bright enough to understand the difference between a phrase and actual literal intent.

I’m sure when he hears someone use the phrase “go fuck yourself”, he thinks they literally mean the person should have sexual intercourse with themselves.

I’m tempted to ask if thats the best you can do, ZEB, but I already know it is.

492

The world didn’t end. The shrine of holy marriage didn’t burst in flames and perished. Nothing bad happened.

What did happen was that people who love eachother got married. If you think that’s a bad thing, please re-examine your priorities.

493

[quote]ephrem wrote:

The world didn’t end. The shrine of holy marriage didn’t burst in flames and perished. Nothing bad happened.

What did happen was that people who love eachother got married. If you think that’s a bad thing, please re-examine your priorities.

[/quote]

Oh no, we shouldnt look at reality. We should just heed thunderbolts warning that gay marriage will inevitably weaken marriage and collapse civilization.

Sure, it hasnt happened in those other places but… uh… just give it more time. Yeah, that must be it.

But what do I know about logic? To me, logic means testing your predictions against real world evidence. I’m just whining, though, of course.

494

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I regularly offer quotes from the CDC and other well established data from reliable sources. Did you somehow miss that? [/quote]

You regularly misinterpret data to draw false conclusions. Do you somehow not understand that?

You’re certainly not homophobic, ZEB, that argument we had way back where you defended the “eg-gay” movement and claimed you “just wanted to help them”… must be my imagination.

But since you dont use slurs, and instead call homosexuals mentally ill, you’re totally off the hook.[/quote]

If someone belonged to a religion where they considered it to be vile to eat animal flesh, and you ate animal flesh and they told you that they considered it to be bad for you and you might want to consider veganism, would it be comparable to a Christian telling a gay person that they consider homosexuality to be immoral? I am just looking for opinions here.

495

http://www.unmarried.org/polyamory.html

I think people have a right to love the way they choose, but majority has the right to define social terms. If the majority wanted to define something as marriage between two members of the same sex then OK. Rights are about what you are able to do, not about what other people are required to call it (which is infriging on their rights).

496

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I regularly offer quotes from the CDC and other well established data from reliable sources. Did you somehow miss that? [/quote]

You regularly misinterpret data to draw false conclusions. Do you somehow not understand that?

I post data from the site. You can interpret as meaning nothing or you can take heed and understand that it does mean something. Usually the politically correct like to close their eyes and run around with their fingers in their ears while whistling a tune.

Please post one time where I called homosexuals mentally ill. I know you must have that post nearby and ready to post it otherwise you wouldn’t have said such a thing.

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Oh, and ZEB keeps harping that I “wished death on a man and his family”. Not quite bright enough to understand the difference between a phrase and actual literal intent.

I’m sure when he hears someone use the phrase “go fuck yourself”, he thinks they literally mean the person should have sexual intercourse with themselves.

I’m tempted to ask if thats the best you can do, ZEB, but I already know it is.[/quote]

Oh sorry I didn’t know that “I wish you and your family would burn in a fire” was now a proper put-down and well ingrained in our lexicon. And since it is not how is anyone to understand intent behind such an original and ugly phrase such as what you posted? You slither and squirm but you never really get away do you?

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

You’re certainly not homophobic, ZEB, that argument we had way back where you defended the “eg-gay” movement and claimed you “just wanted to help them”… must be my imagination.

But since you dont use slurs, and instead call homosexuals mentally ill, you’re totally off the hook.[/quote]

Yes that must be it because all of those people who have claimed to be ex-gays must be liars and undeserving of our support.

You are so far left and pc that you can’t even think straight (no pun intended).

499

[quote]ephrem wrote:

The world didn’t end. The shrine of holy marriage didn’t burst in flames and perished. Nothing bad happened.[/quote]

Marriage is a shambles in the current era. When were the seeds of that disintegration planted? Roughly the 1960s. It took decades, but the engineered disintegration occurred on pace.

This idiotic notion that nothing bad could happen on the basis that nothing bad did happen immediately after the enactment is just that - idiotic, and completely illogical. If that were true, traditional marriage should be fine - after all, it didn’t “blow up” right after the cultural assault on it in the 1960s. How has that logic panned out?

This nothing but classic brainless hipster dodge. Unlike things ought not be treated alike. Nothing odd or problematic about that.

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Oh no, we shouldnt look at reality. We should just heed thunderbolts warning that gay marriage will inevitably weaken marriage and collapse civilization.

Sure, it hasnt happened in those other places but… uh… just give it more time. Yeah, that must be it.

But what do I know about logic? To me, logic means testing your predictions against real world evidence. I’m just whining, though, of course.[/quote]

Get smarter, I dare you. Instead of low grade sarcasm, make an argument. Marriage has been in decline since the 1960s, and this decline has been gradual, not an instant demolition when it came under cultural assault.

If you’re right, then the current (bad) state of marriage (high divorce rates, low respect for the institution, etc.) should have happened “instantly!” when it came under assault in the 1960s. Because it didn’t happen “instantly!” - so goes your argument - “it must never have happened!”

It didn’t, of course - traditional marriage began losing its footing over time as the ideas undermining it became more and more acceptable.

Your argument that “if marriage wasn’t harmed the instant gay marriage was passed, it will never, ever harm it!” is, to be honest, the dumbest argument I’ve read all week.