Gay Marriage: The Latest Salvo

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Pro-hetero? Show me the “hetero-gene”. There isn’t one. That makes your argument pointless. I am not “pro-gay”. I don’t personally agree with the action. I am not “anti-gay” either in that I won’t go out of my way to screw with someone just because they are that way. However, it has not been proven whether it is biological or a “choice”. That means arguing as if it has been proven is just wrong. Comparing it to beastiality and incest also doesn’t make much sense.[/quote]

Agreed.

Professor X, I will see you in Massachusetts and bring that sleevesless tux of yours.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
On what lothario1132 wrote:

I thought about it, however not sure you did before you typed it. The constitution guarantees us “freedom of religion.” Where in that document does it specifically guarantee that two homosexuals can marry?
[/quote]

amendment 14.

how could you read the constitution and the clear intent of it’s amendments and determine that gays wouldn’t have the same rights to marry as anybody else. The religous aspect would be thrown out of course, you can’t add an amendment, because then you have a contradiction:

“This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.”

and this

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

It matters not if the majority of the people have a bias towards this group–that doesn’t change the constitutionality of something–see the liberal smackdown on the south by Lincoln in the Civil War for details and read amendments that followed.

Rainjack, I certainly won’t begrudge you the right to your own opinion, but I keep being amazed concerning the vast liberal judiciary conspiracy.

Something that occurs to me this morning, based on some other posts, is that those that see a liberal conspiracy everywhere might just have to accept that they are themselves extremely conservative – which would explain their own view that everything in the world conspires to be liberal.

However, even without going down that road – the judiciary conspiracy theory, the judiciary does have to consider a lot of complex issues, other than just the question that is the reason an issue is brought to them in the first place.

I also don’t think we can blame the lesser courts for trying to fit into the precedent set by the Supreme Court. They have no choice, to find otherwise would have their rulings overturned – it would simply be irresponsible of them except in very exceptional cases.

There are many things that the public can’t do, or that the government can’t do, whether or not the will of the people directly supports it. In particular, the constitution can’t be voilated just because a group of people don’t like something the constitution allows or supports.

Interestingly, I really do think there is the potential that griping about these issues, with respect to fighting to keep a lid on them, will have them explode completely out of control.

Unless the concept of separation of church and state itself is struck down, we could actually find that the government is not able to express an official opinion on this most basic and ingrained religious institution.

The outcome of such a finding would be very interesting indeed. Be careful what you ask for…

100M-

That proves nothing other than gay men are feminine.

Show me the gay gene and you win.

I don’t think being pro-hetero is an extreme position. I’m sorry if those on the left are upset about the fact that there are those of us out in society that refuse to have anti-hetero B.S. rammed down our throats.

But all you have to do is produce the gay gene, and you will have shut everyone up.

Until then - a study is nothing more than propaganda to support a prejudice.

The liberal jurists have made recent rulings that have gone against the constitution, the Supreme Court, The President and the political leaders of this country as well as the people of this country. How does that then get labeled a conspiracy theory?

I’m sorry to say that it is not through conservative glasses that I am looking at this issue, but just simply my opinion on this particular subject, given the information available to me. To say that those who believe a certain way do so only because of their political beliefs is a tad over generalized. I’m sure it applies to some, but certainly not to all.

I try to take each case or situation on its own merit and form as informed opinion as I can. I’m sure most on this board do this as well.

There exists plenty of empirical evidence to suggest this iis not some conspiracy theory thrown about by right wing zealots. The rulings have been made, and inturn-overturned by higher courts.

This says to me several are trying to make law on their own and are not interested in precedents and over court rulings. Thw will of the people still has some power in the political framework.

[quote]100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
On what lothario1132 wrote:

I thought about it, however not sure you did before you typed it. The constitution guarantees us “freedom of religion.” Where in that document does it specifically guarantee that two homosexuals can marry?

amendment 14.

how could you read the constitution and the clear intent of it’s amendments and determine that gays wouldn’t have the same rights to marry as anybody else. The religous aspect would be thrown out of course, you can’t add an amendment, because then you have a contradiction:

“This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.”

and this

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

It matters not if the majority of the people have a bias towards this group–that doesn’t change the constitutionality of something–see the liberal smackdown on the south by Lincoln in the Civil War for details and read amendments that followed.[/quote]

And from that I guess you can derive the fact that you have the right to marry your sister, and that Chester the molester can Marry little 10 year old Billy too. LOL

You liberals are fun to play with!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
100M-

That proves nothing other than gay men are feminine.[/quote]

A true pheromone response is hard-wired - not a “mental” process, so it would prove a biological basis for homosexuality.

If homosexuality is not a preference, does it matter whether or not the cause is genetic?

Would you be able to provide some evidence to support such a claim? I mean explicitly that rulings are “going against the constitution and the supreme court”, the other groups mentioned are really just chaff in this dicusssion.

The public, the president and the elected leaders are not supposed to be able to exert direct influence on the judiciary, as it is an independent arm of government, and generally for a very good reason.

Of course, be ready to expect that an outcome or decision may be judged inappropriate by some and appropriate by others, as this is the nature of law, being an interpretive process. Proof may be exceedingly difficult to provide.

[quote]larryb wrote:
rainjack wrote:
100M-

That proves nothing other than gay men are feminine.

A true pheromone response is hard-wired - not a “mental” process, so it would prove a biological basis for homosexuality.

Show me the gay gene and you win.

If homosexuality is not a preference, does it matter whether or not the cause is genetic?[/quote]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Locating the gay gene would prove that gay is biological. You hetero-phobes can keep massaging all the bullshit you want to, but it doesn’t make your position any more valid.

Like I’ve said before - short of proving the existence of a gay gene, hetero-phobia is still a choice.

It is a choice - therefore it is a preference. And that makes a huge, huge difference when hetero-phobes are demanding preferential treatment.

This argument is going nowhere. The hetero-phobes are absent of proof. The pro-hetero crowd is ignored by the government’s activist judiciary.

[quote]larryb wrote:

If homosexuality is not a preference, does it matter whether or not the cause is genetic?[/quote]

Um…it matters a whole lot!

If it is not genetic and it is not a preference then it must be some sort of mental problem. This sounds harsh, but not as harsh as it seems.

You have certain preferences for things. If you are compelled toward a thing (whatever it is) and you do not conscious want that thing, nor are you genetically determined to want that thing, then that is indeed a disease (or mental problem) of some sort.

There is a group of people who have a great desire to drink alcohol on a regular basis. They become drunk (sometimes) and it is very difficult for them to stop imbibing alcohol. We call them alcoholics. We also say that they have a disease!

The reason we call it a disease is because while they do not have an alcoholic gene they get hooked on something that they would rather not do: Drink alcohol.

According to your theory if homosexuals are not genetically determined, and they actually do not have a preference for someone of the same sex (but want them anyway) then I would put them in the class of the alcoholic.

This of course is my answer to your supposition and not necessarily my personal answer to homosexuality, as I have none and unlike the Gay lobby and the social liberals I’m not afraid to admit that I don’t know how one becomes a homosexual.

However, if this is true then it does explain why those who are highly motivated are able to leave homosexuality behind after long term therapy. Don?t they say that the only way an alcoholic can give up the bottle is if he is highly motivated to do so?

If this is the case (and I?m not claiming it is) we are doing a grave injustice to every homosexual in the country by even suggesting that gay marriage be allowed!

I would be referring to the rulings of the lower courts in Mass. and Calif. that ‘legalized’ gay marriages.

I understand the differences in the legislative branches. My inferrence was that these jurists appear to make these decisions to thumb their nose at The President and the people willfully and rather arrogantly.

Interpreting the law is one thing, making law does fall in to the hands of the legislative branch.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I listed a group of relationships that some want to exist but the law denies them! Everything (not just two men or two women marrying) outside of the standard one man one woman relationship is denied marriage status. Your friend can call it discrimination, I call it having a society with rules.[/quote]

Yes they would be discriminated against, but the type of discrimination you keep specifying is not protected against by our constitution. You still don’t (refuse to) understand is that there is a difference between discriminating against a group because of a number of people in it, and discriminating against a person because of their sex or race. You do see the difference, right?

As far as I know freedom from discrimination based on religion, race, and sex are rights. There is however no right that says every group of 4 people must be treated like every group of 2 people.

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Yes they would be discriminated against, but the type of discrimination you keep specifying is not protected against by our constitution. You still don’t (refuse to) understand is that there is a difference between discriminating against a group because of a number of people in it, and discriminating against a person because of their sex or race. You do see the difference, right?

As far as I know freedom from discrimination based on religion, race, and sex are rights. There is however no right that says every group of 4 people must be treated like every group of 2 people.[/quote]

So NAMBLA is just a couple of guys, huh? They are on your side - fighting for anti-hetero rights.

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I listed a group of relationships that some want to exist but the law denies them! Everything (not just two men or two women marrying) outside of the standard one man one woman relationship is denied marriage status. Your friend can call it discrimination, I call it having a society with rules.

Yes they would be discriminated against, but the type of discrimination you keep specifying is not protected against by our constitution. You still don’t (refuse to) understand is that there is a difference between discriminating against a group because of a number of people in it, and discriminating against a person because of their sex or race. You do see the difference, right?

As far as I know freedom from discrimination based on religion, race, and sex are rights. There is however no right that says every group of 4 people must be treated like every group of 2 people.[/quote]

Don’t like the group example? Fine take it out. The others still hold. Why can’t you marry your sister? Why can’t you marry your mother? Why can’t you marry a 12 year old. Why can’t you marry a dog? why can’t you marry a lamp post? Why can’t you marry …hey you get the idea…

There is no sex discrimination going on regarding homosexuals. You have swallowed the social liberal pill. Lean forward and place your finger down your throat it’s not to late to throw it back up. Now go tell your friend the following:

Sex is not being descriminated against, sexual preference is! Do you see the difference? Use some of my examples from above.

Societal rules are important regardless of what people like lothario would do if he were supreme commander of the Universe.

It’s just soooo cool to say “hey everybody do your own thing and we accept it all. All you need is love…must be true John Lennon said it.” Unfortunately, that never works. Hey everything has rules (see baseball, football etc). I suggest that your homosexual friend, and lotharios homosexual friends. And everyone elses homosexual friends stop trying to change the rules of the game. It won’t work, it’s not discrimination. If some guy wants to play house with his “lover” then I say fine…but it ends there!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Yes they would be discriminated against, but the type of discrimination you keep specifying is not protected against by our constitution. You still don’t (refuse to) understand is that there is a difference between discriminating against a group because of a number of people in it, and discriminating against a person because of their sex or race. You do see the difference, right?

As far as I know freedom from discrimination based on religion, race, and sex are rights. There is however no right that says every group of 4 people must be treated like every group of 2 people.

So NAMBLA is just a couple of guys, huh? They are on your side - fighting for anti-hetero rights. [/quote]

rainjack:

No, no, no you are jumping the gun! NAMBLA’s “equal rights” comes after homosexual marriage not before…everything leads to something…

Well, we’ll have to dig out the rulings and see what basis they were made under to determine if they actually prove anything. Right now all we know is that you don’t agree with the decisions.

Do you happen to have this material handy?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
So NAMBLA is just a couple of guys, huh? They are on your side - fighting for anti-hetero rights. [/quote]

Good point, the NAMBLA.

The constitution does not protect you against being discriminated against because of your age, especially wrt to entering contracts, thus having an age requirement for entering into a marriage, which is a contractual obligation, is nto unconstitutional.

Using race, religion, or sex though would be protected against, given that aside from your religion, race, or sex you fulfill all other requirements of the contract.

The other half of your point though seems to imply that because NAMBLA is in favor of gay marriage then gay arriage must be wrong by association. I would think someone such as yourself that hold logic in such high regard would see the fallacy in a “Hilter was in favor of gun control, thus gun control is bad” argument.

You guys are all taking a frame of reference that is different from the one I take.

Essentially, I don’t think the genetic/choice debate is pertinent to the question at hand, because marriage isn’t a civil rights issue, irrespective of how those who want the courts to enforce a gay-marriage right would choose to define it.

The bottom line question is whether the legislature can decide to preference one form of behavior, and subsidize that, while not extending that subsidy to other forms of behavior.

Unless there is an individual right to state-sanctioned marriage somewhere in the Constitution, which I would love for someone to point out to me, or unless gays are a “suspect class” under the USSC’s Constitutional civil rights doctrines, which they are not (in fact, only blacks and women are, and blacks more than women), then the only thing that the legislature needs is a “rational basis” for its program. And “rational basis” basically means the court isn’t even going to do an analysis – it’s the ultimiate standard of judicial deference to the legislature.

So if the legislature decides that heterosexual marriages are good for society (good for child-raising, or for whatever other reason they come up with), and thus wants to preference them with tax incentives and make it easy for a package of contractual rights to attach upon the consummation of a legal, state-sanctioned marriage, then the court has no business questioning that decision.

There is no individual liberty restriction taking place, because no one is stopping: 1) gays from living together; 2) gays from engaging in whatever sexual behavior they want with whichever gender they want; 3) from finding a church to say they are married according to that church’s religious doctrine; and 4) any individual of whatever sexual preference from marrying someone of the opposite sex.

If the court were to make up an individual right to “marriage” and place it somewhere in those “penumbras” of the Constitution, then those arguments concerning polygamy, incest, and other things take on a whole new importance, because if there were an individual right to marriage, then why would the number of individuals or their biological relationship be any less “arbitrary and capricious” than restricting it to only those of opposite gender?

That’s the legal analysis.

And under that analysis, the legislature wouldn’t have to open marriage to gays, or create a separate program, if it didn’t want to do so, for whatever reason.

The other side of the question is whether there is a good argument against the expansion of marriage to include gays that goes beyone the “ick” factor.

I hold that there is a rational argument in that area, but it is actually a stronger argument against the creation of a “civil union” that encompasses heterosexual couples. The assumptions behind that argument are: 1) That traditional, two-gendered couples and nuclear families are better for society than other forms, especially due to child-rearing issues; and 2) That heterosexuals generally need to be incentivized to form and stay in such relationships. Assumption 2 comes into play because the contractual rights that go with marriage also come with contractual duties, and many people, especially young men, would generally choose to be without the duties.

As such, the argument that creating an easy “civil union” would weaken marriage seems quite evident – though I’m sure there are many who would argue the premises.

A little less clear is whether expanding marriage to gays, without other changes, would necessarily weaken marriage. This requires another assumption: Namely, that gays would be more promiscuous when married. THis example would then weaken some of the social assumptions and strength that serve to hold marriage together – especially in the modern society with its more permissive divorce laws.

To me, the ultimate solution that addresses both sides, and fits neatly with the Constitutional analysis above, would be for state legislatures in receptive jurisdictions to create civil unions that were only available to homosexual couples, and which were just as hard, if not harder, to get out of than traditional marriage (this would be key if couples in civil unions were allowed to adopt children in those jurisdictions).

However, given this is a legislative matter with no individual right attached, it would be left to the individual states to take the matter up. One thinks that CA, NY, MA and some other jurisdictions wouldn’t be too hard pressed to enact such solutions, giving gay couples the chance to vote with their feet, as it were, as to whether the ability to enter into such unions is truly important to them.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If it is not genetic and it is not a preference then it must be some sort of mental problem. This sounds harsh, but not as harsh as it seems.
[/quote]

However the APA (American Psychological association) stated this in 1994

“…homosexuality is neither a mental illness nor a moral depravity. It is the way a portion of the population expresses human love and sexuality”

Also, I went to the link you posted way back on the first page of this thread. From the homepage of NARTH comes this:

“Welcome to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) – a non-profit, educational organization dedicated to affirming a complementary, male-female model of gender and sexuality.”

Based on their own words, I’d say that NARTH is not a great example of an unbiased group.

I did find this link:

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

Since I don’t study this kind of stuff a lot, I have no idea how comprehensive this article is. However, they do at least give equal amounts of space to the both sides of the nature vs nurture arguments.

Personally, I don’t know if homosexuality is a genetic or learned behaviour. I really don’t think it’s a choice though. When I was a little guy, my first jack-off material was the women’s underwear section of the Sears catalog. At no time did I look at the guys underwear section, compare it to the women’s section, and then make a choice that I would masterbate to the women because I liked them better than the guys. I just knew what I liked without even thinking about it! Now that could have been something I learned before I was aware of it, or it could have been genetic, but it certainly was not a choice.

I also don’t think that being a homosexual or a heterosexual has a lot to do with any sexual act. A gay man could make a choice to be with a women instead of a man even though it repulsed him and probably would make him and her very unhappy. But that wouldn’t make him straight, it would just make him an idiot for wrecking his own life, and an asshole for wrecking hers. Because in the end he’d still be sexually attracted to other men.

BB took 1000 words to say “tangent”.

Sadly that is the nature of these threads, no?