Gay Marriage: The Latest Salvo

[quote]100meters wrote:

Of course God doesn’t hate the act of homosexuality. (God is not petty! and he certainly has NOTHING in common with the evilness of Dobson and the like) and again the God haters—Dobson, Robertson, etc. don’t have the balls to tell their congregations that God wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if two women married each other(WHY THE HECK WOULD HE?) as for tolerance—oy! Tolerant social liberals—social liberal = tolerance.[/quote]

Not to get into a religious debate, but I believe there is a verse I’ve heard quoted that says something to the effect of “God hates sin,” so if homosexual acts are defined as sin, then I think you can say that God hates it, just like you can say God hates other sins, such as worshipping false idols.

Which is different entirely than saying God hates sinners, which to my understanding is exactly incorrect.

LOL, Zeb, I thought it was an earlier post that caused the problem… relax man.

I already ate crow and copped to the offence, what more do you want?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sasquatch,

At times I question your ability to distinguish between facts and opinions when in comes to things that agree with your point of view.

A quoted statistic may represent a fact, but the meaning of the fact is not very clear without a good understanding of the group providing the statistic and the manner in which is has been calculated.

Without those additional details, it is perhaps a fact, but generally a meaningless one. It doesn’t deserve the label without the additional details. You may agree with it, and in your opinion it may be a reasonable representation of fact, but that doesn’t mean it is “the truth”.

I think if you look a little closer into what is fact and what is opinion it would be easier to have a productive discussion without being offended and endangering the worlds tree supply.[/quote]

vroom

I’ve really backed off in the public forums with you, but you keep throwing nonsense bullshit statements like this around.

Read this post again and tell me exactly what the hell you are trying to say! It might be a fact, it might not be a fact–with or without–depending on…

A fact is a fact whether you give it meaning or not. Typical vroom post–don’t present any information to discredit, just post that maybe, possibly, could be, did you ever think, same old same old with you. I gave him the facts that are a given in this issue. Which ones don’t you like?

The 2/3 of Americans are against gay marriage?
The constitutionality issues wrt discrimination protection?
The activist judges over stepping their bounds to create new law instead of enforcing existing laws?

Which ones vroomy

i’m not looking for a fight, I see it’s basically your only way to converse here. I want you to be as critical when analyzing your posts as you are with others.

You can question my abilities at comprehension all you want, it doesn’t make it so. You are as closed minded as anybody on here when it comes to what you believe. Oh I take that back, because as you’ve clearly stated you hold no opinions or beliefs–you are just here to make sure us haters know all the possible issues that go into OUR opinions. And for that I certainly thank you.

[quote]100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:

WOW! You mean to tell me that the God haters are mainly the ones in favor of Gay marriage? Now who would have thought that? LOL

No mostly the fake christians don’t favor gay marriage–Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, and the cultists that follow them. (obviously god doesn’t hate gays or care if they marry—you know the whole he’s not petty, perfect being thing.)

Of course God doesn’t hate homosexuals! he hates that act of homosexuality, but loves the person. And that is pretty much the way Dobson, Robertson, Falwell and other Christians feel as well.

It is the God haters who dispise anyone with balls enough to stand up to them and actually say that something is wrong with gays marrying.

I’m sure there are some tolerant homosexuals and social liberals, I have just never met any :slight_smile:

Of course God doesn’t hate the act of homosexuality. (God is not petty! and he certainly has NOTHING in common with the evilness of Dobson and the like) and again the God haters—Dobson, Robertson, etc. don’t have the balls to tell their congregations that God wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if two women married each other(WHY THE HECK WOULD HE?) as for tolerance—oy! Tolerant social liberals—social liberal = tolerance.[/quote]

100meters:

It’s good that you are allowed to spout your liberal philosophy here on T-Nation. It’s fun, and we sometimes get into some pretty interesting debates.

However, I suggest that you read the Bible before assuming that God is liberal with his assesment of the act of homosexuality. It is pretty clear in several passages that he condemns homosexuality. Don’t make me find the passages as I am not even close to being a Bible scholar, but they are there. This is not the thread to hash that out, but I will if you want.

As far as your obvious hate for those ministers who spread Gods word: If I or any of the others on the right were to speak of homosexuals the way you do of those who are ordained ministers, well I think we would be called “homophobic.” Does that now make you “Ministeraphobic?”

[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL, Zeb, I thought it was an earlier post that caused the problem… relax man.

I already ate crow and copped to the offence, what more do you want?[/quote]

BLOOD! I WANT BLOOD!..no just kidding…:slight_smile:

It’s a good thing you mention you are married with child, you keep throwing out touchy feely statements like that, I’m going to think you are gay.

Not, mind you, that there is anything wrong with that.

Here’s something you can emulate if you like…

See no evil
Hear no evil
Speak no evil

So, perhaps you could break down this 2/3 number. Is this based on polling across the nation? Is this based on passed referendums? Is it based on the results of your private Ouija Board sessions? Is this based on any certain age groups? Is it based on those who cared enough to vote on the topic?

So, perhaps you can describe how you have come to the conclusion that liberal judges are inventing law. Is it based on decisions you don’t like? Is it based on decisions you do and don’t like? Is it based on the fact that questions are reaching the courts before the elected representatives have laid out laws? Is it based on the fact that your interpretation differs from the courts? Is it based on the fact that the people you agree with say that this is what is occurring? Do you think cases don’t bring up issues not well covered by existing laws?

You throw around “facts” with no qualification or explanation as if they are accepted by the entire world. Other people see the same events and come to different conclusions. The “facts” are very much in question at times. This makes them opinions to everyone else unless you back them up.

I’m sure you see this “questioning” as some “massive liberal” agenda with respect to your “alleged facts”. Maybe you could just accept that different people have different views, and that while mine are not always correct, neither are yours.

And that, jack, is a fucking fact!

You want to know what a fact is vroom

You just can’t admit it when your wrong. You got nothing here so you are gonna ask me to defend numbers you know I can’t. That number has been used throughout this thread, yet you choose to throw it in my face because I don’t like your internet personality. That number has been used in almost all the LIBERAL medias reporting on this story, so I just assumed it to be gospel. In fact any reference to America’s feelings on gay marriage state the fact that 2/3 of Americans disagree with it.

WRT judicial decisions. Why have they been overturned if they haven’t over stepped their bounds? That in and of itself tells me the activist jurist have not followed proper precedent.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:

WOW! You mean to tell me that the God haters are mainly the ones in favor of Gay marriage? Now who would have thought that? LOL

No mostly the fake christians don’t favor gay marriage–Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, and the cultists that follow them. (obviously god doesn’t hate gays or care if they marry—you know the whole he’s not petty, perfect being thing.)

Of course God doesn’t hate homosexuals! he hates that act of homosexuality, but loves the person. And that is pretty much the way Dobson, Robertson, Falwell and other Christians feel as well.

It is the God haters who dispise anyone with balls enough to stand up to them and actually say that something is wrong with gays marrying.

I’m sure there are some tolerant homosexuals and social liberals, I have just never met any :slight_smile:

Of course God doesn’t hate the act of homosexuality. (God is not petty! and he certainly has NOTHING in common with the evilness of Dobson and the like) and again the God haters—Dobson, Robertson, etc. don’t have the balls to tell their congregations that God wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if two women married each other(WHY THE HECK WOULD HE?) as for tolerance—oy! Tolerant social liberals—social liberal = tolerance.

100meters:

It’s good that you are allowed to spout your liberal philosophy here on T-Nation. It’s fun, and we sometimes get into some pretty interesting debates.

However, I suggest that you read the Bible before assuming that God is liberal with his assesment of the act of homosexuality. It is pretty clear in several passages that he condemns homosexuality. Don’t make me find the passages as I am not even close to being a Bible scholar, but they are there. This is not the thread to hash that out, but I will if you want.

As far as your obvious hate for those ministers who spread Gods word: If I or any of the others on the right were to speak of homosexuals the way you do of those who are ordained ministers, well I think we would be called “homophobic.” Does that now make you “Ministeraphobic?”[/quote]
The bible doesn’t really say anything about homosexuality as in 2 people of the same gender loving each other, there are 6 passages refered to generally, but none actually discuss homosexuality like were discussing here. As for the ministers—The new testament specifically warns of people just like them—so I’ve heeded the warnings. Based on their distinctly unchristian teachings—I’m pretty sure they’re “teaching a different gospel”

[quote]100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:

WOW! You mean to tell me that the God haters are mainly the ones in favor of Gay marriage? Now who would have thought that? LOL

No mostly the fake christians don’t favor gay marriage–Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, and the cultists that follow them. (obviously god doesn’t hate gays or care if they marry—you know the whole he’s not petty, perfect being thing.)

Of course God doesn’t hate homosexuals! he hates that act of homosexuality, but loves the person. And that is pretty much the way Dobson, Robertson, Falwell and other Christians feel as well.

It is the God haters who dispise anyone with balls enough to stand up to them and actually say that something is wrong with gays marrying.

I’m sure there are some tolerant homosexuals and social liberals, I have just never met any :slight_smile:

Of course God doesn’t hate the act of homosexuality. (God is not petty! and he certainly has NOTHING in common with the evilness of Dobson and the like) and again the God haters—Dobson, Robertson, etc. don’t have the balls to tell their congregations that God wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if two women married each other(WHY THE HECK WOULD HE?) as for tolerance—oy! Tolerant social liberals—social liberal = tolerance.

100meters:

It’s good that you are allowed to spout your liberal philosophy here on T-Nation. It’s fun, and we sometimes get into some pretty interesting debates.

However, I suggest that you read the Bible before assuming that God is liberal with his assesment of the act of homosexuality. It is pretty clear in several passages that he condemns homosexuality. Don’t make me find the passages as I am not even close to being a Bible scholar, but they are there. This is not the thread to hash that out, but I will if you want.

As far as your obvious hate for those ministers who spread Gods word: If I or any of the others on the right were to speak of homosexuals the way you do of those who are ordained ministers, well I think we would be called “homophobic.” Does that now make you “Ministeraphobic?”
The bible doesn’t really say anything about homosexuality as in 2 people of the same gender loving each other, there are 6 passages refered to generally, but none actually discuss homosexuality like were discussing here. As for the ministers—The new testament specifically warns of people just like them—so I’ve heeded the warnings. Based on their distinctly unchristian teachings—I’m pretty sure they’re “teaching a different gospel”
[/quote]

Why in the world would YOU bring up the Bible? Do you expect that particular document to somehow prove your point? I question the logic of your choice. However, since you insist.

Okay, latch up your seat belts boys and girls…I will attempt to point out just a few of the instances where the Bible is not at all complimentary of homosexuality! (Didn’t you just know it had to come to this? Keep in mind 100meters is the one who brought the debate to the Bible, not me).

Genesis 19:4,5-“Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Several passages later God burned Sodom and Ghomorrah to the ground! Gee, you think he did it because he just wanted to have a big barbecue? Nah…he’s not fond of homosexuality my friend. Hey…granted it’s harsh. If I were God I think I would just tell them to go back to their houses and cool it for a while…but…since I’m not God…

Leviticus 18:22- “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” Hmm…pretty clear here too huh? I guess God is not so politically correct. “Don’t” usually means not to do something. You would think that if he liked homosexual activity it would read: “Since I love everyone no matter what, go ahead and have all the sex you want even if it is with someone of the same sex.” No that’s not what was said. That’s just what you WISH he said.

Romans 1:26, 27-“Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.” Hmm, now how could we twist this to mean something else? It’s going to be hard, but I’ll leave it to you…

1 Corinthians 6:9, 10-“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” What, homosexuals will not be inheriting the kingdom of heaven? But those people love each other, and that’s all that matters right? Sorry, maybe to you, but not to God according to the Bible.

Now, if you are a good social liberal you will somehow try to twist the meaning of these very clear words. You can try to say “it’s just your interpretation.” That’s always a good one; it also requires very little back up. You could try the old “Other versions of the Bible don’t say that” (they all do). Here’s one you can use: “Just because it’s in the Bible doesn’t mean that God agrees with it (or wrote it).” I like that one and recommend you use it, as there can be no solid proof either way. And if it comes down to simple belief then you can?t be wrong!

In other words, you can believe in a fairy tale God that loves everything including sin…see your off the hook! :slight_smile:

I think you should have left this debate with in the realm of the liberal judge?s interpretation of the constitution. You bringing the debate to the Bible was a bad move.

If you are smart you won’t respond…so…I can’t wait to hear from you :slight_smile:

(To all of the God haters in T-Land, you are going to have to suck it up. 100meters insisted on bringing the debate to the Bible, so I obliged. Thank you and may God Bless you…oops…I mean thanks and um…have a good day. :slight_smile:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If you are smart you won’t respond…so…I can’t wait to hear from you :slight_smile:
[/quote]
Actually YOU brought up the bible. I just refuted your assertation. And sure enough you found some of the 6 passages I had already mentioned. Lets quickly go through a quick debunking of your bad sunday school teaching.
1.Sodom- nothing to do with homosexuality (loving relations between 2 men/women.) Do you interpret the story to be an approval of incest later when Lot has sex with his daughters? The truth according to scripture is sodom was slated for destruction prior to the incident, and the sins of Sodom weren’t homosexuality. The analogy that works best here is first to realize that all the men involved are heterosexual men(it’s the whole town!) and just like in prison, heteros will do some sick shit. next!

2.Leviticus: Again, nothing to do with loving relations between 2 people (this is too easy)
“If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death.” references to abomination in Leviticus are used for unclean religously or idol worship, in this case it’s the ritual of (obviously) heterosexual men sleeping with men in Baal fertility rituals. There is no mention of orientation here (as you can see!) Worse for you, is the rest of Leviticus which bans among other things: mixed fabrics!, shellfish!, pork!, working on the sabbath!, etc. followed by the stern warning:

“If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments …I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up.”

Yikes! Fortunately leviticus (mosaic law) is nailed to the cross for christians (that’s me) collosians 2:14. Next!

3.Romans: I’ll again go with the scripture:

II Peter 3:16-18
“Paul wrote things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do the rest of scripture, to their own destruction! You, therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled people, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, both now and to the day of eternity Amen.”

Pauls writing taken out of contex has been used to oppress just about every minority there is, you’re doing the same.

AGAIN no mention of homosexuality(loving relations)In context this Paul vigorously denouncing idoltrous worship happening in his time. Did you notice this hint–“For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.”? Corinth was the home of 1000 religions in Paul’s time some like the fertility cult of Aphrodite consisted of heterosexuals sleeping with the same sex—this whole act that Paul is refering to. Take it out of context–(like you) and a piss poor minister could use it to bash some gays with—obviously not Paul’s intent seen here:

Romans1:16: “The gospel is the power of God for spiritual freedom (salvation) for all who believe.”

and

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(there doesn’t seem to be any asteriks or footnotes for sexual orientation!)

NEXT!

Corinthians: Let’s see the word homosexual invented 100 years ago…Bible 2000 years ago…Hmmmm… There is no word parallel to “homosexual” in the bible! No bible prior to 1946 (RSV) used this term. Got that part? So you have 2 deliberately mistranslated words. Research yourself, but arsenokoites ("homosexual"here) is 2 words male and bed, and MOST likey refers to male prostitutes(female clients) as was common in the day. The word malakoi means soft or vulnerable and is used elsewhere in the new testament to describe clothing or character (think “without courage”).
Well that was easy enough. The famous 6 passages used falsely to bash gays. 3 mistranslations(BLATANT) and 3 out of contexts (Obvious) and yet still so many preaching a different gospel!

Now if your a good little conservative (and you are) you’ll either not read this (info=bad) or read it and continue to believe your propoganda. I will however stick to THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE and all of its context, and intents. Do not confuse man’s pettiness (Let’s insert the word homosexuality in paul’s writings now in 1946) to god’s obvious will. Of course, as a christian, I forgive you.

Oh look, the pot calling the kettle black, and then conceding the point and later arguing against this concession.

Truly hopeless.

[quote]vroom wrote:
You just can’t admit it when your wrong. You got nothing here so you are gonna ask me to defend numbers you know I can’t.

Oh look, the pot calling the kettle black, and then conceding the point and later arguing against this concession.

Truly hopeless.[/quote]

You are right vroom and everyone else including myself who used these very same numbers and arguments about activist judges are wrong. I apologize
to you and hope that from now on if I read something and want to use it in an argument I will ask for references.

I call truce! We disagree and that’s fine.

100 meters

That might very well be the clearest explanation I have seen so far wrt bible interpretations. Don’t agree with gay marriage, but as I’ve stated in my case, religion plays little or no part.

100meters, you made some very good points. I am sure there are quite a few things in the bible that have been twisted due to personal bias or simple misunderstanding. I also think many take some passages as literal as if the translation isn’t important at all. I hadn’t heard some of that before.

100meters:

I want to congratulate you. That is one of the finest examples of twisting the scripture to suit liberal needs as I have ever witnessed! It was also an excellent use of the “it’s your interpretation” dodge.

Yes, I know those who are involved in homosexuality don’t want to think for a second that it (homosexuality) is immoral (according to the Bible). Hence, they will twist and turn the truth, as you have done in order to make sure that they come out looking just fine.

This way you can continue to sin (according to the Bible) and still maintain your ?Christianity.? However, as we will see from a complete look at the stated scriptures, your interpretation is a gross distortion of the facts.

First of all let?s discuss the actual sequence of events in the Bible. Yes Lot did have sex with his daughters. However, this came AFTER the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, not BEFORE as you imply, so obviously had nothing to do with the towns destruction. It also happened in a very deceitful way:

Genesis 19:30, 31, 32- “He and his two daughters lived in a cave. One day the older daughter said to the younger; 'our father is old and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. Let’s get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

The above had nothing at all to do with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and I suspect you probably know that!

You then erroneously state: “Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality.” Yes, there was sin in Sodom, all kinds I bet, just like any City. However, why do you think that the following is highlighted: Genesis 19:4,5-"Before they had gone to bed, all the men (that means all of the men wanted to commit a homosexual act) from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house.

They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” Do you think that this passage was mentioned to give homosexuality a free pass? Not hardly!

The word “homosexual” is not used. However, a rose by any other name is will smell as sweet. “Have sex with them.” Pretty clear, it’s a very large group of men (all of them) trying to have sex with other men. If God was so thrilled with this act I wonder why he destroyed a town full of homosexuals.

You actually draw a distinction between the act of two men having sex together, which is a homosexual act, and being a homosexual. I have read desperate attempts by social liberals (and homosexuals) to twist this verse before, but this one is the king, or should I say queen of them all! :slight_smile:

Next:

Leviticus 18:22- “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” You stated: “There is no mention of orientation here.” That would be a very funny line, if I didn’t think you were actually serious. It sort of reminds me of one of your hero’s, Bill Clinton, who stated: “What is the meaning of ‘is’.” Um…I guess you can tear anything apart in order to prove your point-That does not make it correct however.

It says, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman.” There were plenty of terms that were used in the Bible to mean “having sex,” one of them is “lie with.” To describe it even further it states: “As one lies with a woman.” That is very clear to all but social liberals and homosexuals looking for a rationalization, instead of the truth.

In the Old Testament God does not want two men or two women having sex. It makes no exemption whether they are “in love” or not, as you attempted to claim. You are however correct with this statement: “Fortunately leviticus (mosaic law) is nailed to the cross for christians (that’s me) collosians 2:14.”

However, that does not mean that we are to continue to sin! Where does it say that you should continue in your sin" In fact it states the opposite: "Galatians 5:13 “You my brothers were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature”

Surely, you have seen references in the Bible asking us to “flee from temptation.” “Turn your back on sin.” To the whore: “Go and sin no more.” Would you twist this to mean that being a whore is fine now that Christ has come? Or, would you twist it to mean that since there is no acknowledgment of money changing hands that there is no proof that she was a whore? Or, maybe you do not have a horse in that race so you would actually accept the true meaning as it’s written.

NEXT:

You once again attempt to distort the very clear anti-homosexual text in Romans 1:26, 27. Launching an attack from Peter. Who is taking things out of context? You! If you want full context you look before (and after) the actual scripture quote:

Before the actual scripture that I quoted it states in Romans 21, 22, 23. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

Apparently they had no gratitude and their hearts were “darkened” and they chose to follow other religions with images of animals, birds etc. We now have a situation where God gave them up to their lusts. Then the following passage, my original quote from Romans explains what then occurs:

Romans 1:26, 27-“Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural (natural in Greek for your own edification means “Phufikof” ) relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.”

And to be clear, here is the passage after that: Men committed indecent (Greek interpretation means “aschemonsune” or “shameful”) acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Does this at all sound like praise of men having sex with other men? Again the Greek word for indecent is “aschemonsune” or shameful. This is pretty clear to all but homosexuals trying to rationalize their sin.

By the way do you see any stipulation for a homosexual act because the two homosexuals “love each other” How foolish to even suggest such exclusion! How many ways can you interpret (or in your case misinterpret): “Men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.” It’s very clear!

NEXT:

1 Corinthians 6:9,10-“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders…will inherit the kingdom of heaven.”

You pick out the word “homosexual” and claim that it has only showed up in versions of the Bible since 1946. I wonder how many other words did not “show up” in the Bible in earlier versions, probably quite a few. What does that prove? The Greek word used for homosexuals then was “Malakos” which meant “soft or effeminate.” There are several meanings to words today as it was back then.

Perhaps 1000 years from now they will look back at the word “hot” and find that it meant an attractive sexy woman. Does that mean that the new word for “hot” whatever it might be in 1000 years is any less credible? You need to stop twisting the scripture to suit your needs.

Finally, let’s take a look at what Christ did say about “unions.”

Mark 10:5-10: "But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore what God has joined together let no man separate.

Why didn’t he speak of two males joining in a “union?” There are MANY examples of the Bible not looking favorably on homosexual relations. However, there is not one scripture that looks at homosexual relations as a “union.” As it is not a “union” but sin according to the Bible.

I think it’s pretty clear by now that the Bible, both Old Testament and new takes a very dim view of the act of homosexuality. I won’t argue that the word “homosexual” was only invented 100 years ago. Using the actual word is unimportant. We have enough references of “lying with another man” “Exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones.” “men committing indecent acts with other men.” It’s all there. Any adult with common sense and basic reading ability sees the writing on the wall. Sex between two people of the same gender is a sin according to the Bible.

You can commit the act of homosexuality if you want to, not that there is anything wrong with that according to Jerry Sienfeld. However, according to the Bible there is plenty wrong with it. One only needs to read the words without an agenda. Something that I strongly suggest you try doing!

[quote]ZEB wrote:
100meters:
[/quote]

Ahh denial is a good strategy, but still changes nothing in terms of the scripture. Homosexuality IS NEVER mentioned in the bible (well until it was added in 1946 that is—that seems a little late to me) Loving relations between 2 people of the same gender is NEVER mentioned in the bible. Why you’d twist the language I’ve no idea, but I guess you need justification for your disdain of homosexual behavior. Again using the ACTUAL scripture without adding opinion, guessing, and outright language (adding THE word homosexual—clearly not there) You have no basis, none for your argument, not to mention It would be a relatively easy task to find the sins and the wills of God that ARE of concern and are CRYSTAL clear in their language.

My mention of incest with Lot had nothing to do with the reasons of the destruction of Sodom, it was an example of you stretching scripture to fit your view. (Do you view it as an affirmation of incest? Of course not!) but you do it here:

Genesis 19:4,5-"Before they had gone to bed, all the men (that means all of the men wanted to commit a homosexual act) from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house.

Here you end the argument. You prove my point entirely. You’ve actually inserted
your blatantly wrong opinion into the scripture. “all men from every part of the city…both young and old.” MEANS ALL MEN. These were all heterosexual men! Good lord! All men, from every part of the city, young and old… and you add men who wanted to commit a homosexual act! That is a gross distortion that makes my case a hundredfold! Then you say if God was thrilled…I already pointed out God was going to destroy Sodom before the event happened! READ THE SCRIPTURE AND STOP TWISTING! At no point in later mentions of Sodom’s destruction is homosexuality mentioned! It’s all there in your bible, just READ IT!

Worse is this:
Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them. This hinges on the interpertation of YADA–here have sex with them, actual translation “know” plain and simple know. 943 times it’s used in the old testament, to know god, evil, people, places, etc. here—amazingly enough to have sex with. Hilarious. (Please keep in mind in the jewish tradition this story has no relation to homosexuality—ya think it might have been added by biased christians?) And in light of the fact that Sodomites were highly suspect of strangers, and that one of their sins was hostility to strangers (Again, for the love of pete read the bible…) Don’t you think know means, well…know?

Leviticus: I clearly explained this, and you repeat the obvious (to most):
“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman.”

These are heteros sleeping with the same gender in pagan god rituals! Obviously God would frown on such ritualistic behavior, especially in the service of false gods! Again the keyword is abomination–used in cases of idol worship or unclean religous practices. How can you miss the caveat over and over again “as one sleeps with a woman”?
Then, again, you add God does not want… HE NEVER SAYS THAT, AT ANY POINT, and you’d think if it was his will he’ have gone through some effort to get one of his prophets to say so. At no point is homosexuality condemened…You just added it. Stop.

“For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions: for their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural use of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”

again this a part of Paul’s rant against idol worship and it’s ritual. Again PLEASE note that these aren’s homosexual men, they are men who’ve abandoned women in the rituals that he is condemning.(A key theme here is reading the scripture—if you haven’t noticed! This would save you from having to distort its meaning—as you keep doing, and as you’ve been warned against–in the scripture!)

“By the way do you see any stipulation for a homosexual act because the two homosexuals “love each other” How foolish to even suggest such exclusion! How many ways can you interpret (or in your case misinterpret): “Men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.” It’s very clear!”

No stipulation is actually needed, because homosexuality is never referred to, clearly God does condemn straight men involved in (all)rituals of false, Gods, that is very clear —crystal clear, and you keep proving my point with the scripture, thanks!

For corinthians:
Here your just forced to change the subject. Good. The scripture wasn’t written in english, and the scripture is what were going on here right? Let me repeat, there is no word, not one that is parallel to homosexual. Adding it in 1946 does not change that fact. The words in question are malakoi which is “soft” (as used in the bible) and arsenokoites which is 2 words male and bed and not used elsewhere. Painfully to you it also doesn’t mean or reference homosexuality.

Well again using the scripture instead of your “common sense” (bias) we can see that at the very least God never took the time to express his views on homosexuality, which would logically lead one to believe that God doesn’t really care about Sexual orientation, certainly using your logic this would be and affirmation of love between genders

Sam 26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women

“the word used for love here (ahbh; used also in 1 Samuel 18:3 and 1 Samuel 20:17 referring for Jonathon’s love for David) is the same word used in Genesis 29:20 for Jacob’s love for Rachel, and is used repeatedly in Song of Songs. It is typically translated as love in the context of a marriage or sexual desire”

This is a little less ambiguous interpertation than those you’ve mentioned, oh ZEB! Time to move on! God is not petty! Time for you to discover the scripture or at the least find a new sunday school teacher!

100meters:

You argue that homosexuality is never mentioned in the Bible because the word was not inserted until 1946. Your illogical conclusion from this fact is that since the word “homosexual” was not mentioned then it must be an act that God is pleased with.

You are hung up on the actual word “homosexuality.” As I have already pointed out to you words change as times do. You disregard my example of calling a woman “hot.” In 2005 “hot” means one thing when some refer to a woman. It will probably not be noted as such 1000 years from now. However, it still meant that the woman was sexually attractive way back in 2005.

If I see two men fighting with each other and I describe them as punching and kicking each other violently did I still not describe a fight without stating the word “fight?”

You are the one twisting and turning and looking for loopholes so that you can rationalize and act that is clearly sin according to the Bible!

You also love to draw a line between a homosexual act and actually being homosexual. You stated: "All men from every part of the city…both young and old. “MEANS ALL MEN. These were all heterosexual men!” Do you honestly think that it matters if they were basically heterosexual men who wanted to commit a homosexual act, or, if there were 50% homosexual men and 50% heterosexual men, or, any combination thereof?

Furthermore, I see no provision in the Bible which makes an exemption for those who simply commit a homosexual act (because of a ritual etc), or those who are fully homosexuals. The “ACT” of homosexuality is wrong based upon the Bible. Typical of your ineffective argument is your rant regarding the word “know” as used in the Old Testament describing Lots plight in Genesis. You really, really want that word “know” to mean something like a greeting in this case. Yes “know” does have other meanings, so does the word “hot.” How do we know that the “hot” chic you want to meet is not simply very warm as in body temperature? Not that difficult, this ones a no brainer.

Let’s take a look at how it is used and in what context (without hidden homosexual agendas).

All (non-homosexual-social liberal) Bible scholars are aware that the term “know,” as used in Lots case is a term to have sex. "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out so that we might “know” them.?

Now how do we know that they wanted to have sex with them? Perhaps they just wanted to shake their hands and give them a ?support Gay rights? button. No, that’s what the homosexual agenda might have you think, but as usual that’s not the case.

We know that the word “know” meant “to have sex” because in Genesis 19:8 Lot pleads with the men of the town not to have sex with the “strangers.”: “Behold now I have two daughters who have not “known” a man. Do to them as you would have done to these two men. Only leave these two men alone…” What do you suppose Lot was pleading for? What do you think he was begging the men of the town to do with his daughters, instead of the visiting strangers? Obviously, it was sexual relations! ?know? in this case absolutely means ?sexual relations.?

However, to drive the point home even further, in verse 7 Lot again pleads with the men: “Don’t do this wicked thing.” “Wicked” was used throughout the old and new testament, it means “morally bad.” (That’s when morals were universal, not like today.).

Honestly, this stuff is not difficult if you look at it without the pro homosexual slant.

Your explanation of Leviticus is just as ridiculous.

You are claiming that what God was upset about was the act of homosexuality committed during a ?pagan ritual.? I see, then if you take away the ritual, or “pagan act” there is no problem at all with homosexuality, right? That’s what you are claiming.

By your perverted (I like that word) logic then every act in Leviticus, if not done “as a pagan act” (your words) is perfectly alright, just like the homosexual act, right?

That means that Leviticus 18:23, (the verse right after the warning not to perform sexual acts with those of the same gender) is a perfectly good act to commit as long as it’s not done in a “pagan ritual.”:

Leviticus:
18:23-“Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile your self with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is perversion.”

Either God was warning us not to have sex with animals (not just because of a pagan ritual) or he wasn’t. If he was warning us not to have sex with animals, then he was also warning us not to have sex with people of the same gender as it states in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” You can’t have it both ways 100meters. Which is it?

The following Romans 1:26, 27, 28 is the Greek text with the King James version below:

26dia touto paredwken autouV o qeoV eiV paqh atimiaV ai te gar qhleiai autwn methllaxan thn fusikhn crhsin eiV thn para fusin

1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 omoiwV te kai oi arreneV afenteV thn fusikhn crhsin thV qhleiaV exekauqhsan en th orexei autwn eiV allhlouV arseneV en arsesin thn aschmosunhn katergazomenoi kai thn antimisqian hn edei thV planhV autwn en eautoiV apolambanonteV

1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 kai kaqwV ouk edokimasan ton qeon ecein en epignwsei paredwken autouV o qeoV eiV adokimon noun poiein ta mh kaqhkonta

1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 peplhrwmenouV pash adikia porneia ponhria pleonexia kakia mestouV fqonou fonou eridoV dolou kakohqeiaV yiquristaV
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Do you still want to claim that all of the above would be just fine in Gods eyes as long as it was not part of “Pauls rant” of “idol worship and it’s ritual.”

That means either by your definition “murder” is just fine if not associated with “idol worship and it’s ritual.” Either that or they are all wrong according to the Bible, including men having sex with other men as explicitly stated in Romans 1:27 (both Greek and King James versions). I don’t want to use the word “homosexual” because that was not yet invented. Oh…I guess it doesn’t matter what you call it huh? :slight_smile: So, which is it? Is homosexuality a sin or not? If you say no based upon this then neither is murder or any other sin which is mentioned. Your choice!

For Corinthians, you stated:

?The scripture wasn’t written in english, and the scripture is what were going on here right? Let me repeat, there is no word, not one that is parallel to homosexual. Adding it in 1946 does not change that fact."

Again I will use the King James version with the Greek above for your own edification:

6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 oute kleptai oute pleonektai oute mequsoi ou loidoroi ouc arpageV basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Seems your entire defense of homosexuality being accepted (and never attacked) in the Bible is that the actual word “homosexual” had not yet reached common usage. However, as I stated above, words fall in and out of vogue over hundreds of years, as the in the “hot” woman example.

In Biblical days there were many terms used to define having sex with one another, ?to lie with," “to know” etc. The Greek word “Malokoi” was used to describe any man who was “effeminate.”

Effeminate is a character trait of a male showing femininity, unmanliness, womanliness, weakness and delicacy. Basically anything that contradicts a traditional masculine role.

Now do you suppose that Paul is using that word to claim that anyone who talks with a lisp and wears pink will not inherit the kingdom of heaven? No…I don’t think so. 2000 years ago homosexuals were referred to as “effeminate” (Malokoi) among other things.

Even today there are a host of names and terms to describe homosexuals: Fag, queer, gay, limp wristed, butt pirates etc., none of them condoned by me, but nonetheless used by many. If one chooses to use any of the above is he still not intending to describe for you (in his own way) a homosexual?

9 h ouk oidate oti adikoi basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin mh planasqe oute pornoi oute eidwlolatrai oute moicoi oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai

6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 oute kleptai oute pleonektai oute mequsoi ou loidoroi ouc arpageV basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin

6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

While there are exactly zero scriptures condoning homosexuality in the Bible (but many condemning it), there are several scriptures in the old and new testament speaking to the sorts of relationships that the Bible views as acceptable:

Matthew 19:4-?In the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said ; For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one.? Just as in many other verses like the above there is no exception here for two men or two women, why do you think that is?

You can continue to condone homosexuality, or even participate in it as well, that is your right. However there is no justification for calling that act anything less than sinful based upon the Bible, which was (and still is) my original claim!

It’s very clear throughout various passages of the Bible that God takes a dim view of homosexuality (or whatever word you choose to call it). Only those blinded by their own lusts could possibly see it any other way.

You are right 100meters, as you stated ?God is not petty.? However, what you forget in your game playing with the scripture is this ?God will not be mocked!? Do you know where that scripture is located?

I?ll leave you with one more lest you think that when Jesus Christ came to earth he eliminated the need to avoid sin, and simply forgives those who continue to sin with no regard for repentence or the truth:

Galatians 5:13, - You my brothers were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature. Rather serve one another in love.?

That’s “love” not “lust.”

ZEB…

Not only are you articulate, and well-read, you have created undeniable proof that the conjoining of two homosexuals is a mortal sin. You have also backed up your claims with pages and pages of unarguable and substantial evidence. Only an uneducated, bone-head, would pursue any further argument with you.

It’s amazing how many hours of research you can consume yourself with to only be rewarded with ignorance isn’t it?

My hat’s off to you…

OD

[quote]Original_Demon wrote:
ZEB…

Not only are you articulate, and well-read, you have created undeniable proof that the conjoining of two homosexuals is a mortal sin. You have also backed up your claims with pages and pages of unarguable and substantial evidence. Only an uneducated, bone-head, would pursue any further argument with you.

It’s amazing how many hours of research you can consume yourself with to only be rewarded with ignorance isn’t it?

My hat’s off to you…

OD[/quote]

First, Zeb is still wrong, dead wrong and has yet to comeup with a single passage that condemns homosexuality, And in fact by not relying on the scripture, he proves my point over and over again by inserting his own opinion of bias.
Second, as for bonehead weren’t you the one that “proved” our nation was founded on christian principles by using the dollar bill? I’m guessing you’ve since discovered your error?

[quote]100meters wrote:
First, Zeb is still wrong, dead wrong and has yet to comeup with a single passage that condemns homosexuality, And in fact by not relying on the scripture, he proves my point over and over again by inserting his own opinion of bias.
Second, as for bonehead weren’t you the one that “proved” our nation was founded on christian principles by using the dollar bill? I’m guessing you’ve since discovered your error?[/quote]

Is a 45 year-old man raping a 10 year-old boy a sin? I can’t find anywhere in the Bible that says molesting children is a sin. But most logical folks think it is wrong. Maybe we’re just imposing our biases on pedophiles.