Gay Marriage Down in Flames!

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
clip11 wrote:
forlife wrote:
clip11 wrote:
And if two men want to get married, no ones stopping them from having a ceremony. But just because they have a ceremony shouldnt mean the rest of us who are against it should be forced into submission to recognize it.

I couldn’t care less if you recognize it. What I do care about is hospital visitation rights, social security benefits, and the 1,000 other benefits of federal marriage that are denied to gays in our country.

On the contrary, I would have to recognize it. How? Well, I do have a social security tax taken out of my check, so some of that would be going to benefit a gay couple. Other taxes I pay (and the majority of US population who are anti-gay marriage) would be going to benefit gay couples. So how can you tell me or anyone else I dont have to recognize gay marriage but I do have to contribute my dollars to support it?

Yet gays have money taken out of their checks to support straight couples… how is this fair?
[/quote]

There isnt a wholescene about whether opposite sex marriages shuold be recognized or not.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
clip11 wrote:
CAn a person choose to be gay? Theres no hardcore evidence that says its not a choice. And like someone brought out earlier in this post, even if it is natural to them, its not normal. Theres nothing abnormal about being black.

Oh wow. Just wow.

So even if being black is natural, I could still consider it “abnormal”? I mean, it’s natural to them, sure, but I think it’s abnormal.

You really think people would CHOOSE to be discriminated against and persecuted?

Wow.[/quote]

Like was said before gayness was once considered a mental disorder with appropiate treatment. Because of pc, it was taken off the list of mental disorders. Just because it was taken off the list doesnt mean there isnt treatment for someone who truly wants to be cured. So yes it is a choice because there are ways to get help. Whether you choose to do so or not is a different story. Its like someone bipolar who mught say they was born that way. That may be, but theres treatment for that, so they dont have to stay that way. Whether they want to be treated or not is a different story.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
That doesn’t answer the question idiot. You simply agreed with my point.

Again…try to keep up…focus.[/quote]

My God you are stupid. You implied that there are NO homosexuals. I said this is not true and that while a lot of self-proclaimed homosexuals are in fact bisexual, this is simply not the case for some.

Fucking idiot.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Like was said before gayness was once considered a mental disorder with appropiate treatment. Because of pc, it was taken off the list of mental disorders. Just because it was taken off the list doesnt mean there isnt treatment for someone who truly wants to be cured. So yes it is a choice because there are ways to get help. Whether you choose to do so or not is a different story. Its like someone bipolar who mught say they was born that way. That may be, but theres treatment for that, so they dont have to stay that way. Whether they want to be treated or not is a different story.[/quote]

So you’re basically saying some people put there decide they WANT to be discriminated against in their day to day lives.

Sure.

You can’t “pray out the gay” or treat it in any way. It’s innate and part of who they are.

Here’s a fun fact for you:

  • In the United States, the FBI reported that 15.6% of hate crimes reported to police in 2004 were based on perceived sexual orientation. Sixty-one percent of these attacks were against gay men.

Now why on earth would people CHOOSE to be a potential part of that statistic? Also, Bipolar disorder isn’t really cured (to my knowledge) they just medicate people to contain the symptoms.

Also: “The so-called “gay uncle” theory posits that people who themselves do not have children may nonetheless increase the prevalence of their family’s genes in future generations by providing resources (food, supervision, defense, shelter, etc.) to the offspring of their closest relatives. This hypothesis is an extension of the theory of kin selection. Kin selection was originally developed to explain apparent altruistic acts which seemed to be maladaptive. The initial concept was suggested by J.B.S. Haldane in 1932 and later elaborated by many others including John Maynard Smith and West Eberhard. This concept was also used to explain the patterns of certain social insects where most of the members are non-reproductive.

If it happens in nature, it’s bound to happen in humanity.

EDIT: More reading for you all.

"Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his samesex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person?s (client?s) right to selfdetermination; be sensitive to the client?s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors."

I can’t believe in this day and age this even needs to be said, but there we go.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
That’s simply not the case, and I’d ask you to show me some statistics which prove that there is no danger in monogamous homosexual relationships and in fact if there even are that many truly monogamous homosexual relationships. From what I’ve read most homosexual men have sex outside of there “regular” relationship.[/quote]

"Research indicates that many lesbians and gay men want and have committed relationships. For example, survey data indicate that between 40% and 60% of gay men and between 45% and 80% of lesbians are currently involved in a romantic relationship. Further, data from the 2000 U.S. Census indicate that of the 5.5 million couples who were living together but not married, about 1 in 9 (594,391) had partners of the same sex. Although the census data are almost certainly an underestimate of the actual number of cohabiting same-sex couples, they indicate that there are 301,026 male samesex households and 293,365 female same-sex households in the United States.

Stereotypes about lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have persisted, even though studies have found them to be misleading. For instance, one stereotype is that the relationships of lesbians and gay men are dysfunctional and unhappy. However, studies have found same-sex and heterosexual couples to be equivalent to each other on measures of relationship satisfaction and commitment.

A second stereotype is that the relationships of lesbians, gay men and bisexual people are unstable. However, despite social hostility toward same-sex relationships, research shows that many lesbians and gay men form durable relationships. For example, survey data indicate that between 18% and 28% of gay couples and between 8% and 21% of lesbian couples have lived together 10 or more years. It is also reasonable to suggest that the stability of same-sex couples might be enhanced if partners from same-sex couples enjoyed the same levels of support and recognition for their relationships as heterosexual couples do, i.e., legal rights and responsibilities associated with marriage."

This is probably the part where you bash the source and generally look for any excuse to make your own stance seem right in you own twisted logic.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Like was said before gayness was once considered a mental disorder with appropiate treatment. Because of pc, it was taken off the list of mental disorders. Just because it was taken off the list doesnt mean there isnt treatment for someone who truly wants to be cured. So yes it is a choice because there are ways to get help. Whether you choose to do so or not is a different story. Its like someone bipolar who mught say they was born that way. That may be, but theres treatment for that, so they dont have to stay that way. Whether they want to be treated or not is a different story.

So you’re basically saying some people put there decide they WANT to be discriminated against in their day to day lives.

Sure.

You can’t “pray out the gay” or treat it in any way. It’s innate and part of who they are.

Here’s a fun fact for you:

  • In the United States, the FBI reported that 15.6% of hate crimes reported to police in 2004 were based on perceived sexual orientation. Sixty-one percent of these attacks were against gay men.

Now why on earth would people CHOOSE to be a potential part of that statistic? Also, Bipolar disorder isn’t really cured (to my knowledge) they just medicate people to contain the symptoms.

Also: “The so-called “gay uncle” theory posits that people who themselves do not have children may nonetheless increase the prevalence of their family’s genes in future generations by providing resources (food, supervision, defense, shelter, etc.) to the offspring of their closest relatives. This hypothesis is an extension of the theory of kin selection. Kin selection was originally developed to explain apparent altruistic acts which seemed to be maladaptive. The initial concept was suggested by J.B.S. Haldane in 1932 and later elaborated by many others including John Maynard Smith and West Eberhard. This concept was also used to explain the patterns of certain social insects where most of the members are non-reproductive.

If it happens in nature, it’s bound to happen in humanity.

EDIT: More reading for you all.

"Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his samesex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person?s (client?s) right to selfdetermination; be sensitive to the client?s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors."

I can’t believe in this day and age this even needs to be said, but there we go.[/quote]

Well out of the many gay ppl there are I cant give u an answer on why they dont seek treatment.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Like was said before gayness was once considered a mental disorder with appropiate treatment. Because of pc, it was taken off the list of mental disorders. Just because it was taken off the list doesnt mean there isnt treatment for someone who truly wants to be cured. So yes it is a choice because there are ways to get help. Whether you choose to do so or not is a different story. Its like someone bipolar who mught say they was born that way. That may be, but theres treatment for that, so they dont have to stay that way. Whether they want to be treated or not is a different story.

So you’re basically saying some people put there decide they WANT to be discriminated against in their day to day lives.

Sure.

You can’t “pray out the gay” or treat it in any way. It’s innate and part of who they are.

Here’s a fun fact for you:

  • In the United States, the FBI reported that 15.6% of hate crimes reported to police in 2004 were based on perceived sexual orientation. Sixty-one percent of these attacks were against gay men.

Now why on earth would people CHOOSE to be a potential part of that statistic? Also, Bipolar disorder isn’t really cured (to my knowledge) they just medicate people to contain the symptoms.

Also: “The so-called “gay uncle” theory posits that people who themselves do not have children may nonetheless increase the prevalence of their family’s genes in future generations by providing resources (food, supervision, defense, shelter, etc.) to the offspring of their closest relatives. This hypothesis is an extension of the theory of kin selection. Kin selection was originally developed to explain apparent altruistic acts which seemed to be maladaptive. The initial concept was suggested by J.B.S. Haldane in 1932 and later elaborated by many others including John Maynard Smith and West Eberhard. This concept was also used to explain the patterns of certain social insects where most of the members are non-reproductive.

If it happens in nature, it’s bound to happen in humanity.

EDIT: More reading for you all.

"Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his samesex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person?s (client?s) right to selfdetermination; be sensitive to the client?s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors."

I can’t believe in this day and age this even needs to be said, but there we go.[/quote]

Like I said all this stuff is politically correct. Ask yourself this for a minute and really think about it. If a group of recognized scientist did a study in which it was found homosexuality could be cured and was a disorder, and this study was purely objective in that the ppl conducting it wouldnt stand to gain or lose anything one way or the other, do u know what would happen?

I’ll tell you, that study would be bashed and called untrue and a bunch of lies (despite the abundant evidence that proves it is true), the ppl who conducted it would be called bigots and hateful and every move would be to censor them, and not to mention they would risk losing their jobs (even though they didnt make up any evidence on their own, simply reporting the results of their objective study). Every pro gay organization on this side of the planet would be demanding an apology (for what, a fact is a fact).

My point is is that any study is obviously going to favor the pro gay agenda. They would rather have blatant lies told to further their agenda than truth told that could hinder their agenda. They only want truth told when it is to their advantage.

No one can deny that because we see it every day.

Homosexuality very clearly is a mental illness. Where the data available then on suicidality and mental illness amongst homosexuals as it is today, it never would have been removed from the DSM-II. And that’s leaving out the incidence of disease transmission, which is worse now than then. HIV was mostly in monkeys back then.

The fact is that the APA and these other medical organizations are heavily pressured by the gay lobby (as the Roman Catholic Church and Mormon churches have been recently), and it has influenced the science.

It’s just like a “global warming”: it’s another political football.

Read this article to see what I mean about poltical correctness and homosexuality:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11612

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
clip11 wrote:
CAn a person choose to be gay? Theres no hardcore evidence that says its not a choice. And like someone brought out earlier in this post, even if it is natural to them, its not normal. Theres nothing abnormal about being black.

Oh wow. Just wow.

So even if being black is natural, I could still consider it “abnormal”? I mean, it’s natural to them, sure, but I think it’s abnormal.

You really think people would CHOOSE to be discriminated against and persecuted?

Wow.

Like was said before gayness was once considered a mental disorder with appropiate treatment. Because of pc, it was taken off the list of mental disorders. Just because it was taken off the list doesnt mean there isnt treatment for someone who truly wants to be cured. So yes it is a choice because there are ways to get help. Whether you choose to do so or not is a different story. Its like someone bipolar who mught say they was born that way. That may be, but theres treatment for that, so they dont have to stay that way. Whether they want to be treated or not is a different story.

[/quote]

The last time some fool tried this ex-gay movement bullshit… well, lets say it didn’t go well for him either. Don’t take your chances.

Also read this…another pc article concerining queers:
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/05/protected_by_po.html

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Like I said all this stuff is politically correct. Ask yourself this for a minute and really think about it. If a group of recognized scientist did a study in which it was found homosexuality could be cured and was a disorder,
[/quote]
Which has never happened…

rolls eyes I bet you’ll tell us.

yaaaay

Oh, I see, now your fantasy study has “abundant evidence”… well, since it is a fantasy, and had no reflection on the real world, sure…why not put in a part about taped confessions from every homosexual on the planet that they were just doing it to get under your skin?

Their objective fantasy study that you just made up just now.

And a fantasy is a fantasy, and you’re talking about your imagined study as though it actually exists…

Because, in your fantasy world, there was a conclusive study with “abundant evidence” that was censored…

Of course we cant deny it! We know that there are conclusive studies with abundant evidence that…oh, wait, no, that was just in your widdle fantasy world.

Every time someone says something against gays or their program they are censored or ridicled. Like the actor who called someone a fag and was fired and had to apologize…over calling someone a fag???

I think his name was Isaiah Washington

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
clip11 wrote:
Like I said all this stuff is politically correct. Ask yourself this for a minute and really think about it. If a group of recognized scientist did a study in which it was found homosexuality could be cured and was a disorder,

Which has never happened…

and this study was purely objective in that the ppl conducting it wouldnt stand to gain or lose anything one way or the other, do u know what would happen?

rolls eyes I bet you’ll tell us.

I’ll tell you,

yaaaay

that study would be bashed and called untrue and a bunch of lies (despite the abundant evidence that proves it is true)

Oh, I see, now your fantasy study has “abundant evidence”… well, since it is a fantasy, and had no reflection on the real world, sure…why not put in a part about taped confessions from every homosexual on the planet that they were just doing it to get under your skin?

, the ppl who conducted it would be called bigots and hateful and every move would be to censor them, and not to mention they would risk losing their jobs (even though they didnt make up any evidence on their own, simply reporting the results of their objective study).

Their objective fantasy study that you just made up just now.

Every pro gay organization on this side of the planet would be demanding an apology (for what, a fact is a fact).

And a fantasy is a fantasy, and you’re talking about your imagined study as though it actually exists…

My point is is that any study is obviously going to favor the pro gay agenda.

Because, in your fantasy world, there was a conclusive study with “abundant evidence” that was censored…

They would rather have blatant lies told to further their agenda than truth told that could hinder their agenda. They only want truth told when it is to their advantage.

No one can deny that because we see it every day.

Of course we cant deny it! We know that there are conclusive studies with abundant evidence that…oh, wait, no, that was just in your widdle fantasy world.
[/quote]

Read this article from Time Magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,808760,00.html

[quote]forlife wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
No, try and follow. I’m not against the government giving tax benefits, etc to anyone, which is what occurs now either through the domestic partners law or marriage. In terms of benefits these are both the same.

Why do you keep saying this when you know very well that civil unions don’t allow federal benefits while marriage does?
[/quote]

Because this thread was started in reference to Prop 8, which is California only. So IN CALIFORNIA THEY ARE THE SAME!

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
clip11 wrote:
CAn a person choose to be gay? Theres no hardcore evidence that says its not a choice. And like someone brought out earlier in this post, even if it is natural to them, its not normal. Theres nothing abnormal about being black.

Oh wow. Just wow.

So even if being black is natural, I could still consider it “abnormal”? I mean, it’s natural to them, sure, but I think it’s abnormal.

You really think people would CHOOSE to be discriminated against and persecuted?

Wow.

Like was said before gayness was once considered a mental disorder with appropiate treatment. Because of pc, it was taken off the list of mental disorders. Just because it was taken off the list doesnt mean there isnt treatment for someone who truly wants to be cured. So yes it is a choice because there are ways to get help. Whether you choose to do so or not is a different story. Its like someone bipolar who mught say they was born that way. That may be, but theres treatment for that, so they dont have to stay that way. Whether they want to be treated or not is a different story.

[/quote]

True: http://www.peoplecanchange.com/

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I think you’re the one who is missing the point. Race is not a “preference.” End of story.
[/quote]

The choice to marry someone of the same or different race is absolutely a preference.

Irrelevant in any case, because as I said several times it is about the twisted logic being used, not about race, sexuality, or anything else.