Gay Marriage Down in Flames!

[quote]Otep wrote:
rainjack wrote:
They want preferential treatment under the law because of a lifestyle choice. They took it by force with the help of activist judges, which was the reasoning behind Prop 8.

The will of the people is the will of the people - which is the way it should be.

It occurs to me that just because the people will it, they still have no right to infringe on the liberties of a minority. And that the job of courts is to decide whether or not an infringement has occured (with respect to the rights afforded in state and federal law and all that).[/quote]

What rights are being infringed upon? Name one.

More liberal psycho-drivel.

Gays are no more a fucking minority than bass fishermen are. It’s a fucking lifestyle choice. Not a minority group.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Mark 7:21 is Jesus talking to the Pharisees[/quote]

Please show me where Jesus mentions homosexuality in Mark 7:21.

The American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, etc. disagree with you. Who am I supposed to believe, the actual medical community or you?

See my numerous quotes in the other gay threads. As I said, I’m not getting into it again here. The bottom line is that the mental health and medical organizations have done the research, and they say you are wrong.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I always have the option of civil disobedience in the event that laws are passed that I find conflict with my religious beliefs. [/quote]

And gays have the right to oppose laws that are passed which impinge on their basic civil rights. Speaking of which:

[b]Gay rights backers file 3 lawsuits challenging Prop. 8

Lawyers for same-sex couples argue that the anti-gay marriage measure is an illegal constitutional revision. Backers of the measure attack the suits.
By Maura Dolan and Tami Abdollah

November 6, 2008

Reporting from San Francisco and Los Angeles ? After losing at the polls, gay rights supporters filed three lawsuits Wednesday asking the California Supreme Court to overturn Proposition 8, an effort the measure’s supporters called an attempt to subvert the will of voters.

“If they want to legalize gay marriage, what they should do is bring an initiative themselves and ask the people to approve it,” said Frank Schubert, co-chairman of the Proposition 8 campaign. “But they don’t. They go behind the people’s back to the courts and try and force an agenda on the rest of society.”

Lawyers for same-sex couples argued that the anti-gay-marriage measure was an illegal constitutional revision – not a more limited amendment, as backers maintained – because it fundamentally altered the guarantee of equal protection. A constitutional revision, unlike an amendment, must be approved by the Legislature before going to voters.

The state high court has twice before struck down ballot measures as illegal constitutional revisions, but those initiatives involved “a broader scope of changes,” said former California Supreme Court Justice Joseph Grodin, who publicly opposed Proposition 8 and was part of an earlier legal challenge to it. The court has suggested that a revision may be distinguished from an amendment by the breadth and the nature of the change, Grodin said

Still, Grodin said, he believes that the challenge has legal merit, though he declined to make any predictions. Santa Clara University law professor Gerald Uelmen called the case “a stretch.”

UC Irvine Law School Dean Erwin Chemerinsky said his research found too little case law on constitutional revisions to predict how the state high court might resolve the question.

“There is very little law about what can be done by amendment as opposed to revision,” he said.

Jennifer Pizer, a staff lawyer for Lambda Legal, said the initiative met the test of a revision because it had far-reaching magnitude.

“The magnitude here is that you are effectively rendering equal protection a nullity if a simple majority can so easily carve an exception into it,” she said. “Equal protection is supposed to prevent the targeting and subjugation of a minority group by a simple majority vote.”

Glen Lavy, an attorney for the Proposition 8 campaign, called the lawsuits “frivolous” and “a brazen attempt to gut the democratic process.”

The first action was filed by the ACLU, the National Center for Lesbian Rights and Lambda Legal. Santa Clara County and the cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles also sued, and Los Angeles lawyer Gloria Allred filed a third suit on behalf of a married lesbian couple.

All the lawsuits cited the constitutional revision argument, and two of them asked the court to block Proposition 8 from taking effect while the legal cases were pending.

“The court must hold that California may not issue licenses to non-gay couples because if it does it would be violating the equal protection clause,” Allred said at a news conference.

A California Supreme Court spokeswoman said the court would act “as quickly as possible” on the challenges.

Other lawsuits could follow, but gay rights groups have called on supporters not to file cases in federal court. They fear that a loss at the U.S. Supreme Court could set back the marriage movement decades.

“We think it is early to go into federal court and ask federal courts to say we have a federal right to marry,” Pizer said.

In addition to going to court, gay rights advocates sought to assure about 18,000 same-sex couples that their marriages will remain valid.

The groups cited comments by Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown, who has said the initiative was not retroactive. If the marriages are challenged in court, that case too would go to the California Supreme Court. Experts differ on whether the law would protect the marriages.

The California Supreme Court voted 4 to 3 on May 15 that a state ban on same-sex marriage was unconstitutional. The ruling also elevated sexual orientation to the constitutional status of race and gender, an elevation that provides strong legal protection from discrimination.[/b]

I should also mention this

Forlife you seem like a stand up straight forward kind of person and I mean no disrespect to you.

It is this nation that adopted the christian definition of marriage and they have no right to try to force us to change what preordained them.

So you can have the same rights priviliges anything you are human and deserve that, I never said that, but just like you don’t want us telling you who to have a relationship with, don’t force us to change the definition of our morals or state.

As far as religious belief becoming part of government it is because this county was founded on those values, morals and beliefs.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
There is a separation of church and state the state is the body that took the biblical definition of marriage.[/quote]

You just contradicted yourself. How would you like it if the state took the Qu’ran definition of marriage instead? Their holy book is as good as yours, right?

According to you, not according to Jesus.

[quote]forlife wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
Mark 7:21 is Jesus talking to the Pharisees

Please show me where Jesus mentions homosexuality in Mark 7:21.

And Yes there is enough evidence in medical research to support that being homosexual is a disorder, especially if you use a more evolutionary or genetic model of disorder. Not the happy go lucky psychology version.

The American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, etc. disagree with you. Who am I supposed to believe, the actual medical community or you?

You show me the research that states it is not a abnormal behavior, that it is not a characteristic that is statistically different from the population. And I will take the time to dig back into behavioral neuroscience books and other journals to show you contrary.

See my numerous quotes in the other gay threads. As I said, I’m not getting into it again here. The bottom line is that the mental health and medical organizations have done the research, and they say you are wrong.

[/quote]

I will pay your game then and say I see no proof just you stating that they said so, no quotes, no links.

And they take multiple stances on multiple issues, depends on who is saying it for them.

A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men
S LeVay

Salk Institute for Biological Studies, San Diego, CA 92186.

The anterior hypothalamus of the brain participates in the regulation of male-typical sexual behavior. The volumes of four cell groups in this region [interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 1, 2, 3, and 4] were measured in postmortem tissue from three subject groups: women, men who were presumed to be heterosexual, and homosexual men. No differences were found between the groups in the volumes of INAH 1, 2, or 4. As has been reported previously, INAH 3 was more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the women. It was also, however, more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the homosexual men. This finding indicates that INAH is dimorphic with sexual orientation, at least in men, and suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.

Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain

L S Allen and R A Gorski

bstract

The anterior commissure, a fiber tract that is larger in its midsagittal area in women than in men, was examined in 90 postmortem brains from homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. The midsagittal plane of the anterior commissure in homosexual men was 18% larger than in heterosexual women and 34% larger than in heterosexual men. This anatomical difference, which correlates with gender and sexual orientation, may, in part, underlie differences in cognitive function and cerebral lateralization among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. Moreover, this finding of a difference in a structure not known to be related to reproductive functions supports the hypothesis that factors operating early in development differentiate sexually dimorphic structures and functions of the brain, including the anterior commissure and sexual orientation, in a global fashion.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You have done nothing to prove that it is anything but a lifestyle choice. [/quote]

I’ve provided quotes from every major medical and mental health organization stating that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. You can choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change the fact that science disagrees with you.

I didn’t say you cried foul. I said you didn’t agree with the outcome, despite it being the clear will of the people. The will of the people is not always right.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Gays are no more a fucking minority than bass fishermen are. It’s a fucking lifestyle choice. Not a minority group.
[/quote]

Isn’t religion a fucking lifestyle choice? Maybe we should remove legal protections against religious discrimination as well.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men
S LeVay

Salk Institute for Biological Studies, San Diego, CA 92186.

The anterior hypothalamus of the brain participates in the regulation of male-typical sexual behavior. The volumes of four cell groups in this region [interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 1, 2, 3, and 4] were measured in postmortem tissue from three subject groups: women, men who were presumed to be heterosexual, and homosexual men. No differences were found between the groups in the volumes of INAH 1, 2, or 4. As has been reported previously, INAH 3 was more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the women. It was also, however, more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the homosexual men. This finding indicates that INAH is dimorphic with sexual orientation, at least in men, and suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.

Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain

L S Allen and R A Gorski

bstract

The anterior commissure, a fiber tract that is larger in its midsagittal area in women than in men, was examined in 90 postmortem brains from homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. The midsagittal plane of the anterior commissure in homosexual men was 18% larger than in heterosexual women and 34% larger than in heterosexual men. This anatomical difference, which correlates with gender and sexual orientation, may, in part, underlie differences in cognitive function and cerebral lateralization among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. Moreover, this finding of a difference in a structure not known to be related to reproductive functions supports the hypothesis that factors operating early in development differentiate sexually dimorphic structures and functions of the brain, including the anterior commissure and sexual orientation, in a global fashion.

[/quote]

Not genetic proof. It may satisfy you, but unless it is unique, ie - a genetic marker that only homosexuals possess, it is not proof.

This discussion has been beat to death. And when the smoke cleared, there is still no definitive genetic proof. IF you feel the need to drag this out even further, take it up in the original thread. There is no need to go over the same stupid shit in this thread.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
It is this nation that adopted the christian definition of marriage and they have no right to try to force us to change what preordained them.[/quote]

This nation also forbade women and blacks from voting. Does that mean it should always be that way?

If I deserve the same rights and privileges, then allow me to have them. You are welcome to whatever morals make sense to you, but let’s keep church and state separate.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
And they take multiple stances on multiple issues, depends on who is saying it for them.[/quote]

That is false. I’m talking about official policy statements from every major medical and mental health organization in the world.

[quote]forlife wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Gays are no more a fucking minority than bass fishermen are. It’s a fucking lifestyle choice. Not a minority group.

Isn’t religion a fucking lifestyle choice? Maybe we should remove legal protections against religious discrimination as well.[/quote]

Glad to see you are admitting that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Or are you just creating a strawman that has no relevance to the discussion?

If you want to discuss whether or not religious discrimination should be eliminated - start a thread about it. I would wager that it would be a wildly popular idea.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men
S LeVay

Salk Institute for Biological Studies, San Diego, CA 92186.

The anterior hypothalamus of the brain participates in the regulation of male-typical sexual behavior. The volumes of four cell groups in this region [interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 1, 2, 3, and 4] were measured in postmortem tissue from three subject groups:

women, men who were presumed to be heterosexual, and homosexual men. No differences were found between the groups in the volumes of INAH 1, 2, or 4. As has been reported previously, INAH 3 was more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the women.

It was also, however, more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the homosexual men. This finding indicates that INAH is dimorphic with sexual orientation, at least in men, and suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.

Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain

L S Allen and R A Gorski

bstract

The anterior commissure, a fiber tract that is larger in its midsagittal area in women than in men, was examined in 90 postmortem brains from homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women.

The midsagittal plane of the anterior commissure in homosexual men was 18% larger than in heterosexual women and 34% larger than in heterosexual men. This anatomical difference, which correlates with gender and sexual orientation, may, in part, underlie differences in cognitive function and cerebral lateralization among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women.

Moreover, this finding of a difference in a structure not known to be related to reproductive functions supports the hypothesis that factors operating early in development differentiate sexually dimorphic structures and functions of the brain, including the anterior commissure and sexual orientation, in a global fashion.

[/quote]

Not genetic proof. It may satisfy you, but unless it is unique, ie - a genetic marker that only homosexuals possess, it is not proof.

This discussion has been beat to death. And when the smoke cleared, there is still no definitive genetic proof. IF you feel the need to drag this out even further, take it up in the original thread. There is no need to go over the same stupid shit in this thread.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Not genetic proof. It may satisfy you, but unless it is unique, ie - a genetic marker that only homosexuals possess, it is not proof.[/quote]

I’m not going to get back into this with you because I know nothing will change your mind. I never chose to be gay any more than you chose to be straight. For the rest of the group though, I’ll offer this:

[b]In 2005, Dr. Brian Mustanski and his colleagues at the University of Illinois at Chicago, in the first-ever study combining the entire human genome for genetic determinants of sexual orientation, identified several stretches of DNA that appeared to be linked to sexual orientation on three different chromosomes.

The bottom line, according to Mustanski, is that “genes play an important role in determining whether or not men are gay or straight.”[/b]

Regardless, it is a moot point. Legal protections are offered to groups based on lifestyle choice (like religious organizations), so you have no standing for discriminating against gays, even if it is a lifestyle choice.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
[…]You have done nothing to prove that it is anything but a lifestyle choice. Not one thing. You have had your ass handed to you time and again on your “science”.[/quote]

With all due respect, then you haven’t been reading. Forlife, some others and I have provided literally hundreds of references, sources, texts, from proper peer-reviewed scientific sources (psychological, psychiatric, biological, medical, etc.) etc.

that a sexual orientation is not a lifestyle choice and homosexuality has some biological component. Living it in a specific way may be a choice - as well as campaigning for it’s acceptance as well - but I’m quite troubled by your assertion as it seems to indicate you haven’t engaged with the topic at all.

We’ve made the distinction clear dozens of times that it doesn’t have to be genetic to be natural - or irreversible; and again supported that by peer-reviewed articles evidencing that homosexual behaviour is a natural form of sexuality in humans and other mammals.

If you don’t trust me - read Nature, Scientific American, look around PubMed - science has moved on a long time ago.

Now, don’t misunderstand me - you do have imho every right to be opposed to gay marriage and it’s legal and social implications, whether on political, social or religious grounds. But ignoring the massive scientific evidence that contradicts the choice/life-style myth is just irrational.

There’s nothing holding anyone back being concerned about or even opposed to homosexuality in general while accepting the known facts which surround it. There’s plenty of room to argue the moral points - but there’s really nothing more to say on the scientific basis of sexual orientation.

Makkun

[quote]forlife wrote:
rainjack wrote:
You have done nothing to prove that it is anything but a lifestyle choice.

I’ve provided quotes from every major medical and mental health organization stating that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. You can choose to ignore them, but that doesn’t change the fact that science disagrees with you. [/quote]

People talking is not proof. I don’t care how smart they are. I have burden of proof that must be satisfied before I will take their ramblings as fact.

That is the last I will say on the subject, as any further discussion is nothing but multiple re-hashings of the same tired out argument.

[quote]I didn’t want the new baby jesus to win, but I challenge you to find a post where I am crying foul because he was elected.

I didn’t say you cried foul. I said you didn’t agree with the outcome, despite it being the clear will of the people. The will of the people is not always right.[/quote]

You said I was crying about the new baby jesus winning. I have not done anything of the sort. Still a lie.

I don’t like it that the new baby jesus won. About 46% of the population doesn’t like the fact that the new baby jesus won. But he won.

Just like you and the sue happy militant homosexual crowd in California lost. But you don’t see me filing lawsuits in a legal titty fit because I didn’t get my way.

That is something liberal fuckwads do.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Glad to see you are admitting that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Or are you just creating a strawman that has no relevance to the discussion?[/quote]

I’m pointing out that even if every medical and mental health organization is wrong and you are right about homosexuality being a lifestyle choice, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

Since when does it being a lifestyle choice justify civic discrimination?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
People talking is not proof. I don’t care how smart they are. [/quote]

It’s not just “smart people talking”, it is the 100% consensus of every major medical and mental health organization based on scientific research conducted over the past 30 years.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
The liberals do have a point when they say conservatives should care just as much about out-of-wedlock births and divorce laws as they do about gay marriage.

They do.

So where are the propositions to amend state constitutions to ban no-fault divorce?

Don’t give them any ideas.[/quote]

You don’t have to worry about that, because the (so super well kept secret) is that they aren’t actually concerned with the “sanctity of marriage” as they are with making sure gays don’t get the same rights because they are “right” and the gays are “wrong”.