Gay Marriage Amendment

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.

Wow harris, you have had some stupid posts in the past…Oh let’s face it no one tops you when it comes to not understanding very basic data.

But this time, you really went all the way huh?

Here is the data that I have posted and reposted many many times on the other “gay thread.”

"Changing Sexual Orientation or Behavior

(May 9, 2001). Press Release, National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results: “Some Gays can Change.” (last updated May 8, 2001.)

“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.

Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
“The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated ? 58 unchanged) ?A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (PhD dissertation, University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
??optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. ?at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts ? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts ? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA:
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Satinover, J., (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids MI: Baker.
These reports contradict claims that change is impossible. It would be more accurate to say that all the existing evidence suggests strongly that homosexuality is quite changeable.
?Each individual?s homosexuality is the likely result of a complex mixture of genetic, intrauterine, and extrauterine biological factors combined with familial and social factors as well as repeatedly reinforced choices.? (p. 245)
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Spitzer, Robert (May 2001) Psychiatry and Homosexuality, Wall St. Journal, A26.
“In the sample he studied, Spitzer concluded that many (homosexuals) made substantial changes (after gender affirmative therapy) in sexual arousal and fantasy–not merely behavior. Even subjects who made less substantial change believed it to be extremely beneficial.”
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford. ??we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)”

Please point out to me where it says that one must “pray” in order to achieve a cure for a same sex attraction. When you are done FAILING at that task I have another for you. Please point out to me where I have ever said that one must pray to change their same sex attraction.

0 for two nitwit!

Looks like you have once again demonstrated the fact that you cannot read a post and come up with its meaning. And we didn’t really need more proof that you’re an idiot did we?

Noooooooo.

Sort of makes you wish you never did drugs huh?

Once again harris, you should stop playing the message board idiot and pay attention…Oh that’s right you’re not playing…

Please take your time before you post back to me you very very stupid man!

[/quote]

None of these studies have been peer reviewed, therefore they are NOT SCIENCE, you ninny.

Furthermore, all these studies (anecdotal as they are) are utter bullshit because they DO NOT MENTION PEOPLE WHO DROP OUT OF THE “THERAPY”.

Now, again…let’s go to the website of
the largest group offering this “reparative therapy.”

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

All opposition to homosexuality is based in religion. There are NO groups which condemn homos (like, uh…you) which are not based in superstit…uh, religion.

222

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.

Wow harris, you have had some stupid posts in the past…Oh let’s face it no one tops you when it comes to not understanding very basic data.

But this time, you really went all the way huh?

Here is the data that I have posted and reposted many many times on the other “gay thread.”

"Changing Sexual Orientation or Behavior

(May 9, 2001). Press Release, National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results: “Some Gays can Change.” (last updated May 8, 2001.)

“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.

Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
“The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated ? 58 unchanged) ?A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (PhD dissertation, University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
??optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. ?at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts ? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts ? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA:
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Satinover, J., (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids MI: Baker.
These reports contradict claims that change is impossible. It would be more accurate to say that all the existing evidence suggests strongly that homosexuality is quite changeable.
?Each individual?s homosexuality is the likely result of a complex mixture of genetic, intrauterine, and extrauterine biological factors combined with familial and social factors as well as repeatedly reinforced choices.? (p. 245)
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Spitzer, Robert (May 2001) Psychiatry and Homosexuality, Wall St. Journal, A26.
“In the sample he studied, Spitzer concluded that many (homosexuals) made substantial changes (after gender affirmative therapy) in sexual arousal and fantasy–not merely behavior. Even subjects who made less substantial change believed it to be extremely beneficial.”
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford. ??we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)”

Please point out to me where it says that one must “pray” in order to achieve a cure for a same sex attraction. When you are done FAILING at that task I have another for you. Please point out to me where I have ever said that one must pray to change their same sex attraction.

0 for two nitwit!

Looks like you have once again demonstrated the fact that you cannot read a post and come up with its meaning. And we didn’t really need more proof that you’re an idiot did we?

Noooooooo.

Sort of makes you wish you never did drugs huh?

Once again harris, you should stop playing the message board idiot and pay attention…Oh that’s right you’re not playing…

Please take your time before you post back to me you very very stupid man!

None of these studies have been peer reviewed, therefore they are NOT SCIENCE, you ninny.

Furthermore, all these studies (anecdotal as they are) are utter bullshit because they DO NOT MENTION PEOPLE WHO DROP OUT OF THE “THERAPY”.

Now, again…let’s go to the website of
the largest group offering this “reparative therapy.”

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

All opposition to homosexuality is based in religion. There are NO groups which condemn homos (like, uh…you) which are not based in superstit…uh, religion.
[/quote]

You freaking idiot, I told you to “take your time before you posted back to me.”

But noooooo…you rushed right into another position where you look bad.

Your point was that ALL homosexual related therapy relied on religion.

I proved you wrong many many times over with the above information.

Now you want to change the subject.

LOL…(shaking head)

Why don’t you go get an adult to help you out on these threads so that you don’t look like the moron that you are!

223

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.

Wow harris, you have had some stupid posts in the past…Oh let’s face it no one tops you when it comes to not understanding very basic data.

But this time, you really went all the way huh?

Here is the data that I have posted and reposted many many times on the other “gay thread.”

"Changing Sexual Orientation or Behavior

(May 9, 2001). Press Release, National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results: “Some Gays can Change.” (last updated May 8, 2001.)

“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.

Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
“The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated ? 58 unchanged) ?A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (PhD dissertation, University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
??optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. ?at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts ? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts ? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA:
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Satinover, J., (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids MI: Baker.
These reports contradict claims that change is impossible. It would be more accurate to say that all the existing evidence suggests strongly that homosexuality is quite changeable.
?Each individual?s homosexuality is the likely result of a complex mixture of genetic, intrauterine, and extrauterine biological factors combined with familial and social factors as well as repeatedly reinforced choices.? (p. 245)
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Spitzer, Robert (May 2001) Psychiatry and Homosexuality, Wall St. Journal, A26.
“In the sample he studied, Spitzer concluded that many (homosexuals) made substantial changes (after gender affirmative therapy) in sexual arousal and fantasy–not merely behavior. Even subjects who made less substantial change believed it to be extremely beneficial.”
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford. ??we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)”

Please point out to me where it says that one must “pray” in order to achieve a cure for a same sex attraction. When you are done FAILING at that task I have another for you. Please point out to me where I have ever said that one must pray to change their same sex attraction.

0 for two nitwit!

Looks like you have once again demonstrated the fact that you cannot read a post and come up with its meaning. And we didn’t really need more proof that you’re an idiot did we?

Noooooooo.

Sort of makes you wish you never did drugs huh?

Once again harris, you should stop playing the message board idiot and pay attention…Oh that’s right you’re not playing…

Please take your time before you post back to me you very very stupid man!

None of these studies have been peer reviewed, therefore they are NOT SCIENCE, you ninny.

Furthermore, all these studies (anecdotal as they are) are utter bullshit because they DO NOT MENTION PEOPLE WHO DROP OUT OF THE “THERAPY”.

Now, again…let’s go to the website of
the largest group offering this “reparative therapy.”

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

All opposition to homosexuality is based in religion. There are NO groups which condemn homos (like, uh…you) which are not based in superstit…uh, religion.

You freaking idiot, I told you to “take your time before you posted back to me.”

But noooooo…you rushed right into another position where you look bad.

Your point was that ALL homosexual related therapy relied on religion.

I proved you wrong many many times over with the above information.

Now you want to change the subject.

LOL…(shaking head)

Why don’t you go get an adult to help you out on these threads so that you don’t look like the moron that you are!

[/quote]

I love the fact that when you have no point whatsoever, you just put up an unreadable list of bullshit “citations” and then just accuse people of being stupid.

I made one point, over and over: all anti-gay groups are based in religion. Period. There are no secular groups which call for the abolition of homosexuality.

Which is what you do if you think about it. You want faggots to go away, through “therapy” or other psychotic bullshit.

Just imagine the response of someone said the same abut Christians.

I really hope this post didn’t offens you so much you have to go running to TClike a little whiny bitch again.

224

This proposed amendment is pure politics. Whether it passes or not is immaterial, as that was not its purpose. The purpose is simply to rally together anyone that thinks homosexuality is wrong, particularly the fundamentalist christians, and make them support Bush and his other plans, which, were they to go by their Christian morals, they might otherwise not find so endearing.

It’s the oldest sales trick in the book. First they sell you the car, then they sell you $10,000 in accessories and special plans.

225

Zeb,
Harris clearly wrote: “It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion” before you posted your list of studies. It does not appear he changed that portion of his arguement at all.

He did also write “You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it” So my question is do you not believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying? Exodus.to believes it is an important part. They even have a request a prayer hotlink. Are you saying they are wrong?

The studies you posted all suggest that the majority of homosexuals cannot change their orientation. Most of them claim that at best somewhere between 20-30% can/did change. What, then, is to be done about the remaining 70-80% ?

226

[quote]harris447 wrote:

I love the fact that when you have no point whatsoever, you just put up an unreadable list of bullshit “citations” and then just accuse people of being stupid.
[/quote]

No point whatsoever?

Scroll back oh slow one. Your orginal assertion was that the ONLY proof that I offered for change was religious based.

And…

the fact is, I have not offered up any studies that were religious based. In fact, all of the studies that I have ever offered I listed above.

And…

That proves you WRONG!

Naturally, like any other child, you don’t like to be proven wrong. Hence, you now complain that the evidence which proves you wrong is too long.

I suggest that before you get into such a mess like this again, and look bad AGAIN, you at least get an adult to help you read and comprehend the particular post which you are trying to attack.

227

I’m not looking to argue with anyone, just post my view.

The issue in question is whether gays should be able to LEGALLY marry one another. As of yet I cannot find any reason why they shouldn’t. It will not adversley affect my life in anyway whatsoever. All this would mean is that 2 gay men/women, who will be togethor anyways, will have the same legal rights as a strait married couple. The institution of marriage that the christians are referring to is relative to the individual. The government has no business defining marriage. Husbands and wives cheat on eachother all the time so how sacred is it? We live in a country where the gov’t is supposed to be minimally intrusive on our lives, and laws that are enacted should only be made to protect the health, safety or welfare of citizens. Two men or women getting married will in no way threaten the health, safety, or welfare of anyone so it is really out of the gov’ts power.

228

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’m sure he can. Zeb is an amazing source of dubious studies and thinly veiled half-truths. Apparently, while he was perfecting his chin up technique, his head hit the bar a lot.

You wouldn’t happen to have a slightly more objective source?
[/quote]

Dude, if you think the CDC is not objective then no data will be good enough for you.

You missed the part about gays having a much higher occurrence of pedophilia. But I guess the facts don’t mean anything to you. I also guess that in your book Blacks are not really black because there are some who are albino and calling them all black is too broad a brush!

229

[quote]harris447 wrote:
I love the fact that when you have no point whatsoever, you just put up an unreadable list of bullshit “citations” and then just accuse people of being stupid.

I made one point, over and over: all anti-gay groups are based in religion. Period. There are no secular groups which call for the abolition of homosexuality.

Which is what you do if you think about it. You want faggots to go away, through “therapy” or other psychotic bullshit.

Just imagine the response of someone said the same abut Christians.

I really hope this post didn’t offens you so much you have to go running to TClike a little whiny bitch again.

[/quote]

Riiiiiiight! And the Center for Disease Control (CDC) is a front for the “Religious Right” because they point out that the gay lifestyle is physically and mental risky compared to heterosexuals?

230

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Dude, if you think the CDC is not objective then no data will be good enough for you.[/quote]

Have you read it? It’s objective, but not relevant for the current discussion.

No, I saw it. Your conclusion is still wrong. Get someone with more time to explain it to you.

Whatever. Trying to discuss anything with you is pointless. Worse, it’s boring.

231

[quote]pookie wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Dude, if you think the CDC is not objective then no data will be good enough for you.

Have you read it? It’s objective, but not relevant for the current discussion.
[/quote]

You brought up the data issue and the CDC data show a much higher incidence of sexually transmitted disease and depression. So it is very relevant, just not what you want to here. Get over it!

Wow, you must have been a real terror on your high school debate team!

Well, if you can’t explain it then it must not be valid.

True, you need to actually have some facts and a brain to articulate them when discussing issues with me. So apparently you don’t have either. Oh well.

232

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:

I love the fact that when you have no point whatsoever, you just put up an unreadable list of bullshit “citations” and then just accuse people of being stupid.

No point whatsoever?

Scroll back oh slow one. Your orginal assertion was that the ONLY proof that I offered for change was religious based.

And…

the fact is, I have not offered up any studies that were religious based. In fact, all of the studies that I have ever offered I listed above.

And…

That proves you WRONG!

Naturally, like any other child, you don’t like to be proven wrong. Hence, you now complain that the evidence which proves you wrong is too long.

I suggest that before you get into such a mess like this again, and look bad AGAIN, you at least get an adult to help you read and comprehend the particular post which you are trying to attack.

[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

You kill me, you really do.

You’ve done this before: when you have no argument, you change the other person’s assertion.

I never said there were no studies that weren’t religious.

What I said was that there were no anti-gay groups that did not have their basis in religion.

In fact, I said it three or four times.

But you can’t do anything with that fact: it points out that you’re a bigot who hides behind religion to make your hatred more palatable.

I pointed out that the largest group offering “reparative therapy” is Exodus, which explicitly states on its home page that the only way out of homosexuality is through Jesus Christ.

Just a little bit of intellectual honesty, please.

And…continually calling everyone who disagrees with you ‘stupid’ while pulling obvious bullshit like this is kinda sad.

Now, go find 8 pages worth of non-peer reviewed studies to post and send more e-mails to TC whining about how mean I am to you, little bitch.

233

harris447,

You continue to dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself…

I never ONCE stated that people change what sexually arouses them by praying about it.

But that didn’t stop you from writing this:

on 7-16-06.

Then you gave us more of your “wisdom” here:

[quote]

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

http://www.exodus.to/

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.[/quote]

And while the one example you gave above IS based upon religion…

I then posted many many studies (scroll back) which demonstrated that those with same sex attraction COULD in fact change that desire through therapy. And not even ONE of the studies that I posted was religious based.

You see that makes YOU a dumb ass harris.

You don’t read the threads very well do you stupid?

I usually don’t call people names who disagree with me. In fact, I don’t think I have ever called anyone a name…except you that is.

And you have earned it.

You are without a doubt the stupidest adult who has ever posted on these threads…

Do you think that ALL of the studies that I posted from the non-Christian based groups are “anti-gay”?

If you think that then you have blown your original assertion that ALL groups who are against gays are Christian based!

Think about it tard man.

234

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447,

You continue to dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself…

I never ONCE stated that people change what sexually arouses them by praying about it.

But that didn’t stop you from writing this:

Mmm, yes: I’m the dumb one. I’m the one who thinks people can change what sexually arouses them by praying really hard.

on 7-16-06.

Then you gave us more of your “wisdom” here:

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.

And while the one example you gave above IS based upon religion…

I then posted many many studies (scroll back) which demonstrated that those with same sex attraction COULD in fact change that desire through therapy. And not even ONE of the studies that I posted was religious based.

You see that makes YOU a dumb ass harris.

And…continually calling everyone who disagrees with you ‘stupid’ while pulling obvious bullshit like this is kinda sad.

You don’t read the threads very well do you stupid?

I usually don’t call people names who disagree with me. In fact, I don’t think I have ever called anyone a name…except you that is.

And you have earned it.

You are without a doubt the stupidest adult who has ever posted on these threads…

Do you think that ALL of the studies that I posted from the non-Christian based groups are “anti-gay”?

If you think that then you have blown your original assertion that ALL groups who are against gays are Christian based!

Think about it tard man.

[/quote]

Same old shit: misquoting, outright lying, and stupidity from the bigot of the day.

You believe that “reparative theory” can change someone’s sexual orientation.

The largest group dealing with “reparative theory” is Exodus, which state on the FRONT PAGE of their website that the way out of homosexuality is through Jesus.

(Can Buddha make you straight? I wonder…)

And now, the second point: the studies–and follow me now, this requires thought–the studies done might not have been from anti-gay jebus freaks, but the “therapy” was!

Get it?

It’s like a non-racist person can report onwhat happened at a Klan rally.

See?

Schmuck?

I will stand by both of my statements: you believe that people can change what gives them boners by praying real hard; and, there are NO anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You advocate genocide upon gays. You want there to be no more of them. and you can pull out out all of the non-peer reviewed studies (which means they don’t count) you like, but your final wish is that there are no more homosexuals. That makes you an asshole.

Well, a lot of things make you an asshole, but this is one of them…

But, just call me stupid some more and quote a page-and-a-half of studies from bullshit sources.

235

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447,

You continue to dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself…

I never ONCE stated that people change what sexually arouses them by praying about it.

But that didn’t stop you from writing this:

Mmm, yes: I’m the dumb one. I’m the one who thinks people can change what sexually arouses them by praying really hard.

on 7-16-06.

Then you gave us more of your “wisdom” here:

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.

And while the one example you gave above IS based upon religion…

I then posted many many studies (scroll back) which demonstrated that those with same sex attraction COULD in fact change that desire through therapy. And not even ONE of the studies that I posted was religious based.

You see that makes YOU a dumb ass harris.

And…continually calling everyone who disagrees with you ‘stupid’ while pulling obvious bullshit like this is kinda sad.

You don’t read the threads very well do you stupid?

I usually don’t call people names who disagree with me. In fact, I don’t think I have ever called anyone a name…except you that is.

And you have earned it.

You are without a doubt the stupidest adult who has ever posted on these threads…

Do you think that ALL of the studies that I posted from the non-Christian based groups are “anti-gay”?

If you think that then you have blown your original assertion that ALL groups who are against gays are Christian based!

Think about it tard man.

Same old shit: misquoting, outright lying, and stupidity from the bigot of the day.

You believe that “reparative theory” can change someone’s sexual orientation.

The largest group dealing with “reparative theory” is Exodus, which state on the FRONT PAGE of their website that the way out of homosexuality is through Jesus.

(Can Buddha make you straight? I wonder…)

And now, the second point: the studies–and follow me now, this requires thought–the studies done might not have been from anti-gay jebus freaks, but the “therapy” was!

Get it?

It’s like a non-racist person can report onwhat happened at a Klan rally.

See?

Schmuck?

I will stand by both of my statements: you believe that people can change what gives them boners by praying real hard; and, there are NO anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You advocate genocide upon gays. You want there to be no more of them. and you can pull out out all of the non-peer reviewed studies (which means they don’t count) you like, but your final wish is that there are no more homosexuals. That makes you an asshole.

Well, a lot of things make you an asshole, but this is one of them…
[/quote]

harris, you cannot even follow simple logic. I refuse to believe that you are a teacher…Please tell me that your not. Tell me that you just play one on the Internet.

–You associate the many studies that I have posted which clearly indicate that gays can change their same sex attraction through therapy with “genocide.” A LIE.

–You claim that every single study that I posted uses religious methodologies. ANOTHER LIE.

–You said that I stated that people can change their same sex attraction through praying. ANOTHER LIE.

I thought you were just stupid when we began this. However, I was wrong. You are not JUST stupid, you are also an outright LIAR.

I don’t say this often as I am basically an optimist. But, there really is no hope for you.

If you can’t prove me wrong on the three points above you need to change your screen name to “BIG LIAR.”

236

I wish you two would just have gay sex and get it over with already…

237

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447,

You continue to dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself…

I never ONCE stated that people change what sexually arouses them by praying about it.

But that didn’t stop you from writing this:

Mmm, yes: I’m the dumb one. I’m the one who thinks people can change what sexually arouses them by praying really hard.

on 7-16-06.

Then you gave us more of your “wisdom” here:

Is or is not “reparative therapy” based around religion?

This is the largest participant in “ex-gay” bullshit. Here is a blurb from their website:

For 30 years, Exodus has served men and women who are affected by homosexuality. Freedom is possible through Jesus Christ!

It’s religious. There are no anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You believe people can change their sexual orientation through praying about it, and that makes you a fucking idiot.

And while the one example you gave above IS based upon religion…

I then posted many many studies (scroll back) which demonstrated that those with same sex attraction COULD in fact change that desire through therapy. And not even ONE of the studies that I posted was religious based.

You see that makes YOU a dumb ass harris.

And…continually calling everyone who disagrees with you ‘stupid’ while pulling obvious bullshit like this is kinda sad.

You don’t read the threads very well do you stupid?

I usually don’t call people names who disagree with me. In fact, I don’t think I have ever called anyone a name…except you that is.

And you have earned it.

You are without a doubt the stupidest adult who has ever posted on these threads…

Do you think that ALL of the studies that I posted from the non-Christian based groups are “anti-gay”?

If you think that then you have blown your original assertion that ALL groups who are against gays are Christian based!

Think about it tard man.

Same old shit: misquoting, outright lying, and stupidity from the bigot of the day.

You believe that “reparative theory” can change someone’s sexual orientation.

The largest group dealing with “reparative theory” is Exodus, which state on the FRONT PAGE of their website that the way out of homosexuality is through Jesus.

(Can Buddha make you straight? I wonder…)

And now, the second point: the studies–and follow me now, this requires thought–the studies done might not have been from anti-gay jebus freaks, but the “therapy” was!

Get it?

It’s like a non-racist person can report onwhat happened at a Klan rally.

See?

Schmuck?

I will stand by both of my statements: you believe that people can change what gives them boners by praying real hard; and, there are NO anti-gay groups that are not based in religion.

You advocate genocide upon gays. You want there to be no more of them. and you can pull out out all of the non-peer reviewed studies (which means they don’t count) you like, but your final wish is that there are no more homosexuals. That makes you an asshole.

Well, a lot of things make you an asshole, but this is one of them…

harris, you cannot even follow simple logic. I refuse to believe that you are a teacher…Please tell me that your not. Tell me that you just play one on the Internet.

–You associate the many studies that I have posted which clearly indicate that gays can change their same sex attraction through therapy with “genocide.” A LIE.

–You claim that every single study that I posted uses religious methodologies. ANOTHER LIE.

–You said that I stated that people can change their same sex attraction through praying. ANOTHER LIE.

I thought you were just stupid when we began this. However, I was wrong. You are not JUST stupid, you are also an outright LIAR.

I don’t say this often as I am basically an optimist. But, there really is no hope for you.

If you can’t prove me wrong on the three points above you need to change your screen name to “BIG LIAR.”

[/quote]

You’re an idiot.

i would call you unqualified for whatever job you held, but you’re too much of a coward to even fill out your profile.

Where did I say the studies used “religious methodologies,” whatever that even MEANS, shithead.

I said, and will say again, that there are NO ANTI-GAY GROUPS THAT ARE NOT BASED IN RELIGION.

Next–and I’ll make this simple, just like you–I stated that the largest group offering “reparative therapy” is Exodus, which–and this is the ninth time I’ve said it–states on their main webpage that freedom from homosexuality comes through Christ.

You believe in this nonsense. Hence: changing one’s sexuality through praying.

As for genocide, here’s the definition:

gen?o?cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Which is what you want to do with gay people.

Now, here’s where you call me a liar or stupid again, and twist my words and attack some bullshit strawman.

Go to it!

238

harris,

I’ve returned your name calling with more name calling. It’s almost methodical how you bring out the worst in people on such a regular basis. You are a good example of what a human being SHOULD NOT do. So, maybe you are in the right position as “teacher” after all. Your students can look at you each day and say “wow I don’t want to be like that when I grow up.”

You are probably the biggest negative factor on this site harris and honestly anyone who tries to discuss anything with you is wasting their time. Debate with you quickly ends in name calling. Out of curiosity I looked back over just a few of your many worthless posts. It seems that you quickly escalate almost every debate that you are involved in to name calling.

It makes no difference the subject matter or who disagrees with you. Shall I make a short list of the people that you have called names over just this past month? It seems that your online life (hopefully it’s just online, but I doubt it) is centered around attempting to feel better about yourself by demeaning others. What sorry circumstances that have driven you to this sort of mentality I do not know and I don’t want to know.

I also know that just about everyone whom you debate eventually lowers themselves to your level with the name calling as well, myself included. Honestly harris, as I have already stated, you really bring out the worst in people. That this somehow brings you joy is just is remarkable.

You are the epitome of what’s wrong with message boards. And one reason why many avoid this form of debate. Teens get blamed a great deal for behavior that you display on a regular basis. It makes me wonder who is actually writing some of this stuff. Immature teens, or disturbed adults like yourself.

I’m going to end this little debate of ours quickly. I no more want to carry on a conversation with you than I would want to stand on a street corner and spend endless hours talking politics with a drug addict. Yes, those folks need help (just like you) but it’s a complicated job and one that I am not trained for.

Real simple, all you have to do is explain these three blatant lies.

Don’t come back to me with more of your “fried brain logic.”

Just prove me wrong on the three points below. Everything else that you post will be ignored. And quite honestly I’m not sure that I’m even going to read one more post from you. Perhaps if you actually try to respond like a rational adult to the three statements below I will.

Here you go harris, you have one last chance to prove yourself a rational thinking adult:

–You associate the many studies that I have posted which clearly indicate that gays can change their same sex attraction through therapy with “genocide.” And that’s a lie.

Here you have to prove that “genocide” equals those who have a same sex attraction and WANT to change, and make a better life for themselves. Based upon their own expectations.

–You claim that every single study that I posted uses religious methodologies. ANOTHER LIE.

Here you have to actually read through the many studies and find that every single one of them has some sort of religiious dogma.

–You said that I stated that people can change their same sex attraction through praying.ANOTHER LIE.

All you have to do here is find ONE post…no just one sentence where I stated that "people can change their same sex attraction through prayer.

No more name calling on my part, I’m through. Just prove the above three points and I will concede this discussion to you.

If you cannot do this, you have lost this debate.

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PS, I noticed a few of your more recent posts actually seem relevant. I hope that your good behavior, at least on other threads, will continue. Who knows hitting bottom around here may have helped you.

I hope so.

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[quote]ZEB wrote:
PS, I noticed a few of your more recent posts actually seem relevant. I hope that your good behavior, at least on other threads, will continue. Who knows hitting bottom around here may have helped you.

I hope so.[/quote]

LOL. Speaking from personal experience, lording your behavior over someone you are arguing with is also quite inflammatory.