Fun With Religion

Off Topic
62

Faisal,

I don’t “buy into” the Catholic doctrine that Mary was completely free of even the Taint of sin, since it is because of man’s sin that our lifespans were shortened in Genesis 6:5,“The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.”
So for me there goes the immaculate conception.

As for Jesus dying. Some background information as I understand it. God does want all to have everlasting life. My experience has been that as you “meditate” or ponder/think about the Law you get to the Spirit of the Law which is why Jesus summed up the ten commandments (that have very specific actions attached to them) with “Love the Lord your God with all you heart,soul, mind, strength” and “Love your neighbour as your self.” Notice there is no specific actions tied to these. When you get to the Spirit You are living completely as God intended. So I would propose that he was more human than us in that he actually lived his life exactly as God intended us as his creation. That was why he came, that’s part of the Good news, here we have God become man showing us that in our humanness we can be right with God. His physical death provided the way to forgiveness. I say physical because he lived without sin, therefore he had no spiritual taint of sin and therefore he will not/ cannot be judged, his spirit will not die even though his body did. So his body did die but that is not the essence, identity of man, that is in the spirit what drives a man and that did not die.

That is why as someone pointed out that if you identify with a group you pretty much are identified with all their opinions and beliefs whether you agree with them or not. So while I am a Christian I guess I cannot be a Catholic.

Peace,
T-Ren

63

[quote]faisal wrote:

If you claim that Jesus is the son of God, shouldn’t he have not died at the time of crusifiction? Since he is a “half mortal”? [/quote]

Jesus refers to himself as “Son of Man” and answers to the title “Son of God” throughout the four gospels. Satan even mockingly refers to Jesus as “Son of God” in Matt 4.

RE: Jesus’ inability to die; See John 10:18 - Jesus speaking: “No one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” He died willingly to pay the penalty of sin for all, and then rose again by his own power.

Correct - Catholic church tradition says Mary was born free from sin, but there is no bible verse to support this claim.

Bibically speaking, Jesus is the the only one who was born sinless, lived a sinless life and therefore was an acceptable, complete sacrifice for the sin of the human race.

MIKE

64

[quote]T-Ren wrote:

As for the rest of what you say good job. I have never heard the “history” behind most of Jesus’ comments, but have held the same idea on this teaching thank-you.

Peace,
T-Ren[/quote]

Also the great thing is the only example of anyone going the 2nd mile in the bible is Jesus.

peace to all

steve

65

Stan: No. No, it’s okay. The ship took us to another planet. A beautiful, lush place called Marklar.
Kyle: Yeah. And the leader, he said that all the Ethiopians can go live there.
Hollis (Christian missionary): Alien race? Have they? heard the word of Christ?
Cartman: No, never. It’s perfect.
Hollis: Ooh, no. Those poor souls. We must spread the Gospel to them.

66

[quote]Stevemax wrote:
1 GOD CAME TO MAN through Christ. All other religions are Man tring to reach God.[/quote]

Not even close. The gods walked among men for their own purposes in pretty much EVERY religion from the beginning of time. Consider the Nordic mythology, where Odin released two trees from the earth to create mankind – clearly, the trees were not going about looking for gods.

[quote]Stevemax wrote:
All other religions have no relationship with God.[/quote]

Again, most ancient religions have a very distinct concept of relationships with the gods; in fact, many deal specifically with the question of mortals being impregnated by gods. That’s a mighty personal relationship, if you ask me.

[quote]T-Ren wrote:
I figured it was forgiveness by faith not acts or sacrifice.[/quote]

This is a Protestant belief expounded by Luther based on Paul’s distortions of Jesus’ teachings, which in turn were based in a flawed concept of Jewish law.

This is really the crux of my dissent with christianity. I can believe that some random philosopher might have some good ideas without knowing much about Jewish law, but I have a really hard time believing the son of God Himself wouldn’t know it backwards and forwards – so when Jesus argues with Jewish scholars from a position of almost shocking ignorance, I don’t think they run away from the truth so much as they back away from the lunatic.

It seems strange to me that christians actually believe their religion is somehow unique and distinct. Haven’t you noticed that religion in general only differs on a few key points from faith to faith? Look, here’s every religion in a nutshell:

“You will be rewarded for following these rules.”

That’s it. Where you get the reward, what the reward is, and what the rules are – those are the only differences. Some religions have lots of rules, like the 613 mitzvos of Judaism. Some have very few rules, like the wiccan “an thou harm none, do what thou wilt”. But it’s all about following rules and being rewarded. There’s nothing particularly special or unique about any of them. Just pick one where you like the rules.

67

CDarklock, you are intelligent and eloquent. Awesome.

To-Shin Do

68

[quote]I have a really hard time believing the son of God Himself wouldn’t know it backwards and forwards – so when Jesus argues with Jewish scholars from a position of almost shocking ignorance, I don’t think they run away from the truth so much as they back away from the lunatic.
[/quote]

Can you give some examples of Jesus’s lunacy?

69

Stevemax: He thought he was the son of God. That’s pretty wacky. If anybody walks around these days saying they’re the son of God, we tend to put them in a straitjacket. Didn’t he go starve himself in the desert for a long time? Didn’t he claim to have magic healing powers? But my contention is this: it’s not just Jesus that was a little “touched”. The whole bible (old testament and new) is pretty much “out there”. There’s a book called “Ken’s Guide to the Bible” which outlines a great deal of lunacy in the bible: all the contradictions, weird stuff that God supposedly told his followers, oddball rules and whatnot (like when it’s acceptable to stone your neighbor to death, etc.) I think you would find it interesting at least, even if you won’t like some of the things that Ken points out to the reader about the Good Book. The bible is basically a novel with a lot of sex, betrayal, murder, crime, war and tragedy.

70

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Stevemax: He thought he was the son of God. That’s pretty wacky. If anybody walks around these days saying they’re the son of God, we tend to put them in a straitjacket. Didn’t he go starve himself in the desert for a long time? Didn’t he claim to have magic healing powers? But my contention is this: it’s not just Jesus that was a little “touched”. The whole bible (old testament and new) is pretty much “out there”. There’s a book called “Ken’s Guide to the Bible” which outlines a great deal of lunacy in the bible: all the contradictions, weird stuff that God supposedly told his followers, oddball rules and whatnot (like when it’s acceptable to stone your neighbor to death, etc.) I think you would find it interesting at least, even if you won’t like some of the things that Ken points out to the reader about the Good Book. The bible is basically a novel with a lot of sex, betrayal, murder, crime, war and tragedy.[/quote]

To human beings, any thing supernatural is way out there. The power of God/Jesus
is supernatural. Jesus’s miracle were just small glimpses of his supernatural evidence - Which are historically reported from non christian historians back 2000 years ago just in case you think it was made up by a bunch of fisherman.
And these miracles are at work today in the name of jesus

http://www.miraclestories.org/testimonies.html

And as far as contadictions go in the bible your probably refering to the old covenant, which is no longer in effect as Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of yours and my sins.

71

Take a look at Ken’s guide, buddy. The contradictions are there, even in the new testament. But you are right about the old one, too. It is just crazy with them. In terms of weirdness, the old testament wins hands down, making the new testament look kinda boring. But in all fairness, it would be tough to top the goofiness of the old testament. I mean, I forget the exact passage, and I don’t have Ken’s Guide here in front of me, but I remember at some point that God announced to his followers that his real name was “Jealousy”. That’s pretty kooky.

As far as the supernatural appearing weird to mortal man. Well, yeah. But just because a bunch of people said that Jesus had magic powers doesn’t make it true. I don’t care who said it, either. You could have the most anti-religious man in the world say to me that Houdini had magic powers because he made an elephant disappear in a crowded room, but I’m still not going to believe that it was a supernatural act of God or anything. Anything that happens – even weird stuff like lepers healing themselves or something – isn’t a divine act until somebody comes along and defines it as such. We make up our own miracles, bro. Just because we can’t explain something scientifically does not make it authentically miraculous. Can you see what I’m getting at?

72

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

As far as the supernatural appearing weird to mortal man. Well, yeah. [quote]

[quote]
But just because a bunch of people said that Jesus had magic powers doesn’t make it true.

I don’t care who said it, either.

You could have the most anti-religious man in the world say to me that Houdini had magic powers because he made an elephant disappear in a crowded room, but I’m still not going to believe that it was a supernatural act of God or anything. Anything that happens – even weird stuff like lepers healing themselves or something – isn’t a divine act until somebody comes along and defines it as such. We make up our own miracles, bro. Just because we can’t explain something scientifically does not make it authentically miraculous. Can you see what I’m getting at? [/quote]

YOU SEEM A LITTLE CLOSED MINDED TO THE SUPERNATURAL LIKE IT DONT EXIST OR SOMETHING.

NOBODY CAN PROVE ANYTHING TO YOU UNLESS YOU SEE IT FOR YOUR OWN EYES. IS THAT RIGHT???
AND BASICALLY YOUR SAYING ALL THE HISTORIANS AND THEOLOGIANS OF THE WORLD WHO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF JESUS IS NOT TRUE.

OK?

THATS YOUR GOD GIVEN CHOICE, YOU CAN EXERCISE YOUR FREE WILL, BUT DONT BE INFLUENCED BY JUST KEN BRO, READ INTO THE HISTORY OF JESUS FROM THE HISTORIANS PERSPECTIVE.

BY THE WAY SHOOT SOME OF KENS CONTRADICTIONS UP ON THE BOARD.
I PROBABLY KNOW ALL THE ONES HE HAS MISINTERPRETED.

73

[quote]Stevemax wrote:
Can you give some examples of Jesus’s lunacy?[/quote]

Jesus told the Pharisees that he was allowed to pick corn on the sabbath because he was lord of the sabbath day.

This is sort of like telling a cop that you’re allowed to drive this way, because you’re king of the road.

Jesus does a lot of that. Someone comes up and questions him, so he says something nonsensical and weird. Then the questioner looks at him funny and leaves. Most christians claim this is because he was so wise and profound, but unfortunately he didn’t say wise and profound things. He said ridiculous and crazy things.

74

[quote]Stevemax wrote:
READ INTO THE HISTORY OF JESUS FROM THE HISTORIANS PERSPECTIVE.
[/quote]

There isn’t one. Historians work from records, and nobody even mentioned Jesus during his lifetime.

Certain historians have identified a likely mortal father for a bastard son that could have been Jesus, though. Panthera, a Roman centurion, was stationed in roughly the same area that Jesus is thought to have been immaculately conceived. Panthera bragged at length about his secret trysts with Jewish women.

But here’s what clinches it for me: we have records of THAT, but no record of a would-be savior running around healing the sick and ministering to the poor. In light of that, Ockham’s razor pretty much demands that we admit there was no historical Jesus.

Of course, Jesus is still a nice idea. Sort of like Santa Claus.

75

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I forget the exact passage, and I don’t have Ken’s Guide here in front of me, but I remember at some point that God announced to his followers that his real name was “Jealousy”. That’s pretty kooky.[/quote]

No, no, no. God said that He was a jalousie – you know, those little narrow windows they have in the South that open and close like Venetian blinds. By this, He was saying that He was a narrow window through which we could see heaven, but that the window was not always open and would provide us with only a limited view of…

Okay, I’m kidding. God never said anything like that. He did say once that He is a jealous God, though, which might be what you’re thinking.

Regardless, Ken’s guide is essentially fiction. Most of the “problems” he identifies in the bible are based on taking the verses out of context.

76

The discussion of religion always degenerates into each side of the debate calling the other side an idiot.

CD - you are not going to shake my faith because you call my God an idiot.

I won’t convince you get on your knees a pray the sinner’s prayer by calling you a godless infidel.

Those who know God know it - undescribable though it may be to one who doesn’t know him - it’s called faith.

When Christ died - it was to give you a choice - to chose him, or not.

Theology experts have made careers out of debating the most mundane issues of “Religion”, when all it boils down to is a simple choice.

77

Do you like building things? Enjoy biblical stories? Then check out this: http://www.thebricktestament.com/
It’s fun!

To-Shin Do

78

A good read for those truly interested would be, “The Case for Christ”. Also “The Fisherman” is good.

79

You are so incredibly wrong. There is more proof of Christ’s existence than on yours, mine, buddha’s or …etc. Try, “The Case for Christ”. Stop talking as if you know anything and that your words are fact. They are not.

80

Actually it was the Pharisees who were being a little off kilter. What Christ told them makes perfect sense and I don’t remember them picking any corn. Give me one solid example of Jesus’ Lunacy. Just one. In context please.

81

My Christianity requires me to follow no rules in order to get rewarded. My reward is the free gift of eternal life that my Savior paid for. It is a gift of grace from God to me. It has been bought and paid for. All I must do is believe and and be baptized. All of the other rules are not rules but God’s message to us on how we ought to live so that we may be happy and prosperous. It’s all choices.