Fruits...Eat Them or Not??

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
MODOK,

I don’t want to take away from what Lustig has to present, but is he the guy that Aragorn/McDonald got into a debate with regarding fructose as the main culprit driving obesity rates?

I can’t recall. I think I’ve seen this lecture but I’ll watch it again; it was informative.[/quote]

It was. Aragon made him look pretty bad. Not that Lustig’s not a brilliant guy, I think it was more of the fact that obesity was being blamed solely on fructose and more so HFCS. He basically got owned by Alan and then bailed out of the discussion when it was clear he was being bested… [/quote]

is this in a video or was it on a forum somewhere? do you have a link for it?

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Also, he makes a really good point when he’s comparing sugar and alcohol – fructose is habit forming. So its no surprise food companies pack as much HFCS into their food as possible - the more fructose, the more people get hooked on the food.
[/quote]

Don’t be a conspiracy theorist. Just because that’s one possible outcome does not mean it was the intention. It doesn’t mean it WASN’T the intention, either, but people forget how heavily subsidized corn is and thus the preference to use HFCS as a sweetener.

So, why don’t we find something that’s naturally sweet (Stevia?) and subsidize the shit out of that? It would take 5-10 years to see the impact.[/quote]

I dont consider it a conspiracy theory. Think about it - we both run food companies. I start using HFCS in my food, suddenly the shelf life is longer and sales are going up. Wouldnt you follow suit?

I’d actually really like to research food sales in America, comparing different foods and how they sold before they had sugar, after sugar, and after HFCS. My starting hypothesis would be that introducing sugar/HFCS increses food sales.

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
MODOK,

I don’t want to take away from what Lustig has to present, but is he the guy that Aragorn/McDonald got into a debate with regarding fructose as the main culprit driving obesity rates?

I can’t recall. I think I’ve seen this lecture but I’ll watch it again; it was informative.[/quote]

It was. Aragon made him look pretty bad. Not that Lustig’s not a brilliant guy, I think it was more of the fact that obesity was being blamed solely on fructose and more so HFCS. He basically got owned by Alan and then bailed out of the discussion when it was clear he was being bested… [/quote]

Saying that fructose is the main problem isnt the same as blaming it solely on fructose. If we banned sugar/HFCS, yes, there would still be some fat people, but not the 60%(?) obesity rate we have now.

Yes, its a matter of calories. But what happens when you pump food full of sugar/HFCS? The empty calories go up.

Yes, its a matter of overeating. But what happens when you pump food full of sugar/HFCS? People eat more.

Yes, its a matter of exercise. But people who eat sugar-heavy diets seem to (seem - I’m not claiming this as fact but general observation) have less energy than people who arent eating sugar all the time.

So, no, fructose isn’t the only cause, but if we listed, in order of severity, the causes of obesity in America, I think it would top the list.

[quote]relentless2120 wrote:
is this in a video or was it on a forum somewhere? do you have a link for it?
[/quote]

A forum - I can look for a link, but Tmag doesn’t usually let anything be linked involving Lyle or Alan.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So, no, fructose isn’t the only cause, but if we listed, in order of severity, the causes of obesity in America, I think it would top the list.[/quote]

Whatever you say - I don’t have a dog in this fight and don’t really care. I can’t be bothered arguing the same shit over and over again. I just mentioned it because Ponce brought it up. I have NO opinion on the matter.

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]relentless2120 wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
http://www.weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=19

Fructose isn’t the problem.

And from another site regarding claims by Lustig:

"The only practical difference between sucrose and HFCS is in the bonding. The glucose & fructose in HFCS is mainly free and unbonded, while it is bonded in sucrose. However, this makes no meaningful difference in regards to metabolism in the body. The bonds in sucrose are quickly broken when sucrose hits the acid environment of the stomach. This means that once sucrose hits the stomach, it�?�¢??s no different from HFCS. Once you get to the small intestine, metabolism is exactly the same. This little bit of difference does not lead to the problems Dr. Lustig talks about. The fact is, HFCS and sucrose are identical as far as your body is concerned. The difference in bonding wouldn�?�¢??t make a shred of difference in regards to your health.�?�¢??[/quote]

I think fructose definitely is a big part of the problem, but HFCS isn’t necessarily much worse than sucrose. they both contain a similar amount of fructose (HFCS typically has about 5% more) so to say HFCS is more of a problem isn’t really accurate, but fructose consumption in general is[/quote]

Chemically, they are virtually identical and lead to the same issues. The problem with HFCS was that it was soooo cheap, manufacturers started putting it everywhere;; places that were cost-prohibitive to put cane sugar. The conversion, but more specifically the proliferation, started in the 1980’s. [/quote]

This is what I was getting it. It’s EVERYWHERE. If it was a different carb source, then that source would be he one “villified.”

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]Einzakin wrote:

I’m 5’10ish 165. So does this change whether or not you will listen to what I say?
[/quote]
Yes.

and this

[quote]gregron wrote:
Capped and Plan It… what do you look like?

You’ve been a member for 5 years and seem to have lots to say about the subject so I’m curious to know what you look like/what your stats are? [/quote]

[/quote]

Alright then, but just to let you know, the size of your muscles has nothing to do with the size of your brain. Oh, and you do know that a decrease in jaw size has allowed humans to become smarter with bigger brains; having better ability to reason. Meaning many people who have smaller jaws(and usually weigh less) are smarter because they have bigger brains/heads.

People trying to lose weight do not have to stop eating fruit. It does not take a 237 pound man to realize this. People may have other ways that work, that involve removing fruit, but that is not what causes the fat loss. It is VERY hard to gain body fat if you eat only fruit.

Cals In/Out matters, but what matters more is the type of calories you are eating. If you require 2500 and you are eating 3000 calories of pasta, you will gain body fat. But, if you are eating 3000 calories of only Fruit/Veggies/Meat(Organic) - You will lose body fat.

[quote]MODOK wrote:
If anyone is interested,( and I think a few people in tis thread should be ) this is a tremendous primer on fructose metabolism versus glucose metabolism by one of my old preceptors. Dr. Lustig is a great guy, and one of the most intelligent people that I know. This is a very popular lecture that he gave a few years ago. I highly recommend watching it all if you have 90 minutes. If you just want to get to the metabolic pathways skip to about the 42 minute mark. He is a kooky guy with some of his beliefs on governmental regulation, but that does not detract from the excellent science presentation that he gives.

Sugar: The Bitter Truth - YouTube [/quote]

I liked the video. I liked the beginning and end more than the parts specifically about fructose. I have some criticism about the studies he used. I don’t know for sure, but I got the feeling that he was misrepresenting the conclusions of certain studies, or at least exaggerating for emphasis. However, he did convince me that fructose is worse than the other sugars in theory, or on paper. I don’t know enough about fructose, but I’ll research more after seeing the video. I dont think that obesity would be solved if all fructose (which is in fruit) were eliminated. I don’t think that’s even what the lecturer was saying. I believe he was saying his issues with fructose combined with increased calorie intake leads to obesity.

His point was that increased sugar consumption, especially drinkable sugar, causes obesity. According to the lecturer, soda is one of the cheapest sources of calories. Soda is now widely available in third world countries. Meat is a luxury item and soda is the new staple crop. In the United States corn is subsidized as a form of job protection for unneeded farmers. Meanwhile, meat is becoming more and more expensive, especially in Western countries such as Britain, which don’t have large scale farming. People in third world countries used to live healthfully off a diet a grain and a small amount of fruit or meat. Now, people in the third world, and low income areas of Westernized countries are living off of fatty meats, cheap canola-type oils, and sugar water. They are unable to regulate their intake. This is caused by a lack of self control and education. But, it’s also caused by a Western consumption culture, and the new prices of food.

Frankly, I agree with the lecturer that the problem is cultural, socio-economic, and political. Like the lecturer said, the worst part of everything is first generation children are being raised to become fat. There are fat toddlers - it’s very sad. Those children have no choice when it comes to being fat. The government is going to have to pay for heart surgery for those children when they grow up. Meanwhile, politicians are subsidizing corn farmers. WIC is giving out baby formula for free, instead of advocating breast feeding.

Morbid obesity is now common in non-Western countries, and with immigrants to the USA and Britain, and it’s not entirely their fault. There are immigrants in the United States who don’t know that eating a lot causes obesity. Many think obesity is caused by a literal curse. They think if they eat a lot of fruits (which many do, because it’s cheap), or if they take a lot of herbal vitamins (which many do), they won’t become obese or develop diabetes. Many Americans don’t understand calories in, calories out either. But, obesity because of a lack of education is a pandemic among immigrants to Western countries, and low income areas of those countries.

Obesity has gone from being a disease of the rich, to a disease of the poor. What’s required isn’t making food more expensive, but basic education about what causes obesity: too many calories. A government based basic education plan would save the public health care systems in the United States, Britain, and other EU countries a lot of money in the long term.

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]Einzakin wrote:

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]Einzakin wrote:

I’m 5’10ish 165. So does this change whether or not you will listen to what I say?
[/quote]
Yes.

and this

[quote]gregron wrote:
Capped and Plan It… what do you look like?

You’ve been a member for 5 years and seem to have lots to say about the subject so I’m curious to know what you look like/what your stats are? [/quote]

[/quote]

If you require 2500 and you are eating 3000 calories of pasta, you will gain body fat. But, if you are eating 3000 calories of only Fruit/Veggies/Meat(Organic) - You will lose body fat.
[/quote]

I’m not sure people even read the threads in which they post.

It has just gotten goofy now, and boring.
[/quote]

yeah I was just responding to a couple people earlier, there’s so much to read and I really don’t have time right now.

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]Oregand wrote:
Maybe its not your goal to be huge or even big but most of us here have a goal like that in mind.

Its a BBing form, people posting here should want to look like bodybuilders.

If however gaining lean muscle and having good cardio are your goals, I would recommend Shugarts forms rather than these ones.

Most guys here simply want to be tanks, bigger muscles etc. Thats why were here and not posting in say the Olympic forms.

Anyway, Modok, I challenge thee to a duel. Shall we say fruits at dawn?[/quote]

Pomegranates at ten paces?[/quote]
lol