However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]
That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]
IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]
Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…[/quote]
Correct. But the scenario is that Stalin just kept rolling.
However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]
That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]
IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]
Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…[/quote]
Correct. But the scenario is that Stalin just kept rolling.
[/quote]
Even a totalitarian regime has to bow eventually to the fear of the people. He had a “luxury” if you will of being able to push his population to accept massive casualties in war, and to mobilize them, but that is not an infinite well. We drop one on a major population center and tell him we have more. Hustle for a time and then drop the second. It doesn’t matter that it will take time, not all the propaganda in the world can quell the viral news that a city or two was just incinerated in a single stroke…
However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]
That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]
IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]
Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…[/quote]
Correct. But the scenario is that Stalin just kept rolling.
[/quote]
Even a totalitarian regime has to bow eventually to the fear of the people. He had a “luxury” if you will of being able to push his population to accept massive casualties in war, and to mobilize them, but that is not an infinite well. We drop one on a major population center and tell him we have more. Hustle for a time and then drop the second. It doesn’t matter that it will take time, not all the propaganda in the world can quell the viral news that a city or two was just incinerated in a single stroke…[/quote]
I am sure glad it didn’t go down and we don’t actually know the answer. WWII was bad enough.
I must say I feel soft and weak compared to those who went through it, but I can’t say I am not happy that I missed it. Getting used as cannon fodder by CentCom in a great war between great powers isn’t really my cup of tea.
However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]
That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]
IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]
Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…[/quote]
Correct. But the scenario is that Stalin just kept rolling.
[/quote]
Even a totalitarian regime has to bow eventually to the fear of the people. He had a “luxury” if you will of being able to push his population to accept massive casualties in war, and to mobilize them, but that is not an infinite well. We drop one on a major population center and tell him we have more. Hustle for a time and then drop the second. It doesn’t matter that it will take time, not all the propaganda in the world can quell the viral news that a city or two was just incinerated in a single stroke…[/quote]
Um, Stalin had already sacrificed the entirety of large population centers and kept on rolling. People here really don’t seem to understand what went on in the eastern front. In fact, the causalities in numerous individual Russian cities were larger by many multiples of the casualties in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]
That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]
IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]
Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…[/quote]
Correct. But the scenario is that Stalin just kept rolling.
[/quote]
Even a totalitarian regime has to bow eventually to the fear of the people. He had a “luxury” if you will of being able to push his population to accept massive casualties in war, and to mobilize them, but that is not an infinite well. We drop one on a major population center and tell him we have more. Hustle for a time and then drop the second. It doesn’t matter that it will take time, not all the propaganda in the world can quell the viral news that a city or two was just incinerated in a single stroke…[/quote]
Um, Stalin had already sacrificed the entirety of large population centers and kept on rolling. People here really don’t seem to understand what went on in the eastern front. In fact, the causalities in numerous individual Russian cities were larger by many multiples of the casualties in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.[/quote]
I get what you are saying, but that was in defense of the homeland. Do you think they would have the same desire to sacrifice in say, southern France?
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I get what you are saying, but that was in defense of the homeland. Do you think they would have the same desire to sacrifice in say, southern France?[/quote]
As long as they continue to think they’re fighting a defensive war (as in in defense of their motherland), then yes.
I think we need to get our premise straightened out.
Are we talking about Russia being the aggressor and pushing out? Or the Allies being the aggressor and pushing out?
Are we talking about the war occurring around VE Day, when the Allies still had the majority of their men in Europe? Or after the Japanese surrendered?
Though, I honestly think the Russians would have fought on to the end. Don’t forget- their will to fight had already been broken multiple times. The civilians and the cannon fodder, that is. I’m sure everyone knows that the Russians fought with a literal gun at their backs. Stalin wants something? He’ll sacrifice everyone and their mothers in an attempt to get it.
I get what you are saying, but that was in defense of the homeland. Do you think they would have the same desire to sacrifice in say, southern France?[/quote]
Really, at this point, I’m just trying to give people some perspective. The whole “America, Fuck yeah, we would have handed Stalin his ass in an instant because we dominated that war” view is revisionist and misguided.
Think about this, doing some math, to equal the total number of Russian casualties in the war, the US would have to have a D-day, every single day, for more than 10 straight years… That is more than 3600 d-days.
You also have to remember the US and Britton were fighting over foreign soil too after all.
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce[/quote]
If you really want to get into some stuff most people don’t know about WW2, look up China’s role and the China-Japanese side of things.
I get what you are saying, but that was in defense of the homeland. Do you think they would have the same desire to sacrifice in say, southern France?[/quote]
Really, at this point, I’m just trying to give people some perspective. The whole “America, Fuck yeah, we would have handed Stalin his ass in an instant because we dominated that war” view is revisionist and misguided.
Think about this, doing some math, to equal the total number of Russian casualties in the war, the US would have to have a D-day, every single day, for more than 10 straight years… That is more than 3600 d-days.
You also have to remember the US and Britton were fighting over foreign soil too after all.
[/quote]
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce[/quote]
If you really want to get into some stuff most people don’t know about WW2, look up China’s role and the China-Japanese side of things.[/quote]
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce[/quote]
If you really want to get into some stuff most people don’t know about WW2, look up China’s role and the China-Japanese side of things.[/quote]
So…so so brutal.[/quote]
I generally have to break up a lot of the stuff I’ve read because I can only take so much of it at a time. I’ll take a break for a while and read some fiction.
However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]
That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]
IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]
Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…[/quote]
Correct. But the scenario is that Stalin just kept rolling.
[/quote]
Even a totalitarian regime has to bow eventually to the fear of the people. He had a “luxury” if you will of being able to push his population to accept massive casualties in war, and to mobilize them, but that is not an infinite well. We drop one on a major population center and tell him we have more. Hustle for a time and then drop the second. It doesn’t matter that it will take time, not all the propaganda in the world can quell the viral news that a city or two was just incinerated in a single stroke…[/quote]
I am sure glad it didn’t go down and we don’t actually know the answer. WWII was bad enough.
I must say feel soft and weak compared to those who went through it, but I can’t say I am not happy that I missed it. Getting used as cannon fodder by CentCom in a great war between great powers isn’t really my cup of tea. [/quote]
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce[/quote]
If you really want to get into some stuff most people don’t know about WW2, look up China’s role and the China-Japanese side of things.[/quote]
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce[/quote]
If you really want to get into some stuff most people don’t know about WW2, look up China’s role and the China-Japanese side of things.[/quote]
Any sources in particular?
[/quote]
I’m actually open for suggestions too. I haven’t read any from a direct Chinese or Japanese viewpoint. I’ve read Brittish, Russian, and German based books but all treat the fighting in China in varying amounts of import. But, unfathomable cruelty and suffering on an unfathomable scale somehow almost forgotten by the west.
Edit: I have “The Rape of Nanking” checked out from my Library, but haven’t gotten to it yet.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Another factor that was mentioned was cutting off the aid that Russia was being given. I don’t know what their food supply was, or if there was any issues, but with winter coming up after the end of the war could have played a role in feeding the Red army.
I don’t know much of this time period, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting information DoubleDuce[/quote]
If you really want to get into some stuff most people don’t know about WW2, look up China’s role and the China-Japanese side of things.[/quote]
Any sources in particular?
[/quote]
I’m actually open for suggestions too. I haven’t read any from a direct Chinese or Japanese viewpoint. I’ve read Brittish, Russian, and German based books but all treat the fighting in China in varying amounts of import. But, unfathomable cruelty and suffering on an unfathomable scale somehow almost forgotten by the west.
Edit: I have “The Rape of Nanking” checked out from my Library, but haven’t gotten to it yet.[/quote]
This is also a great read from that part of the war.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Really, at this point, I’m just trying to give people some perspective. The whole “America, Fuck yeah, we would have handed Stalin his ass in an instant because we dominated that war” view is revisionist and misguided.
Think about this, doing some math, to equal the total number of Russian casualties in the war, the US would have to have a D-day, every single day, for more than 10 straight years… That is more than 3600 d-days.
You also have to remember the US and Britton were fighting over foreign soil too after all.
[/quote]
I’m pretty sure that I didn’t learn this in American public schools, so I have to call B.S. The ONLY reason that Russians aren’t speaking American is that We are nice guys.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Really, at this point, I’m just trying to give people some perspective. The whole “America, Fuck yeah, we would have handed Stalin his ass in an instant because we dominated that war” view is revisionist and misguided.
Think about this, doing some math, to equal the total number of Russian casualties in the war, the US would have to have a D-day, every single day, for more than 10 straight years… That is more than 3600 d-days.
You also have to remember the US and Britton were fighting over foreign soil too after all.
[/quote]
I’m pretty sure that I didn’t learn this in American public schools, so I have to call B.S. The ONLY reason that Russians aren’t speaking American is that We are nice guys.[/quote]
All countries educate with the prism that enhances their national goals, whether consciously state-sponsored or subconsciously biased through life and personal opinions. We are no different here.
