French Soldiers View on US Troops in Afganistan

[quote]pushharder wrote:
The simple fact of the matter is it is what it is – the Russians won WWII because of assistance from the English speaking world and the English speaking world won WWII because of assistance from the Russians.[/quote]

Oh no doubt.

The Russians would have ran out of certain essential materiel if it weren’t for the U.S. industry backing them up.

Conversely, the Allies would have had a hell of a job trying to invade France if the Russians didn’t put up one hell of a fight and eventually wreck the shit out of the German army during '43-44.

Imagine what would have happened if the Russians really did fold as easily as Hilter predicted… That would mean at least an additional 1-2 million men on the Western front and a helluva lot of tanks. Who cares about brilliant diversion tactics when you have 1-2 million men at your disposal and your opponent is bottled up.

Push is correct about the extent of aid to the Soviet Union during WWII. I studied this particular subject in depth and I’ve read quite a bit about it.

Over 22,000 armoured vehicles were shipped during the war. A continuous convey was set up along the Arctic route from September 1941. Many ships were sunk supplying the Russians and the crews were treated very badly. A number of them were arrested on trumped up charges and held in prison like cards for Stalin to use against the West if he needed.

This author details how the US and Britain kick-started Soviet industry and their agricultural sector:

The whole time Stalin was positioning himself in Eastern Europe and Iran.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

He would of gotten crushed by the U.S.
[/quote]

No offense, but I doubt the US public would have had the will to stomach the losses necessary to even contemplate defeating the Russians. There were far too many poor Russian peasants with a ruthless leader more than willing to sacrifice millions of soldiers. If he’d attacked, about the only hope the allies would have had would be an uprising from within the Russian ranks or a generous application of atomic weapons.

As painful as it is to admit, it was the Russians who defeated the Germans in WW2 with some support from the other allies who mostly just kept the western front open enough to tie up some German troops and contributed to the demoralization of the German population through bombing.

Things like D day are small scale in comparison to battles on the eastern front. And that was only even possible because 80% of the German military was on the other side of the continent

While this doesn’t diminish the courage and valor of the individual soldiers in these battles, most people vastly over estimate US military power back then.

[/quote]

Agree.

Strongly disagree.

America’s manufacturing might was key even early in the war. Even to the USSR.

Stalin probably doesn’t make it to 1944 without the US shipping a gazillion tons of materiel to the USSR a few years prior.

No.

It would’ve been a bloody, bloody war if fought conventionally but the allies would’ve prevailed because America’s might in supplies, personnel and weaponry was massive (we were planning a conventional war to finish Japan).

However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]

Yeah, I mentioned the bomb in my very first post. Without it, though, the man power simply did not exist to have stopped the Russians. If, given time and political will, could we have eventually built an army to defeat them, yeah probably. But that would have taken a time, and would have required us to re-invade Europe after being kicked out of it. Though I still highly doubt the US had the will to take the losses, fighting in foreign lands, it would have required. Popular support for the war would not survive battles like Stalingrad.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Popular support for the war would not survive battles like Stalingrad.[/quote]

I’m not so sure that would be true in the 40s/50s. Today, you’re almost certainly right.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Popular support for the war would not survive battles like Stalingrad.[/quote]

I’m not so sure that would be true in the 40s/50s. Today, you’re almost certainly right. [/quote]

Literally, take the allied losses on D-day and multiply them by 100+.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Popular support for the war would not survive battles like Stalingrad.[/quote]

I’m not so sure that would be true in the 40s/50s. Today, you’re almost certainly right. [/quote]

Literally, take the allied losses on D-day and multiply them by 100+.[/quote]

I understand that. I also understand the U.S. had sustained relatively less losses compared to Russia (as you pointed out) by wars ended and (as you also pointed out) it takes time and resources to produce trained soldiers. Russia doesn’t have an endless supply of bodies and as casualties continue to mount those bodies will provide less and less value. You can force someone to fight for your cause, but you can’t force them to buy into that cause. It’s a completely different mind set.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Popular support for the war would not survive battles like Stalingrad.[/quote]

I’m not so sure that would be true in the 40s/50s. Today, you’re almost certainly right. [/quote]

Literally, take the allied losses on D-day and multiply them by 100+.[/quote]

I think you underestimate the will of the Greatest Generation.

[quote]2busy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Popular support for the war would not survive battles like Stalingrad.[/quote]

I’m not so sure that would be true in the 40s/50s. Today, you’re almost certainly right. [/quote]

Literally, take the allied losses on D-day and multiply them by 100+.[/quote]

I think you underestimate the will of the Greatest Generation. [/quote]

I think you overestimate it.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
atypical,
it’s rather doubtful such a campaign would’ve lasted very long, so bombings would have little impact (as they had on the war).
Bear in mind the soviets were already IN Germany pillaging and raping like …well, like 1945.

US forces dealt only with a small fraction of german forces in E.
They consistently fought with much more strength and material versus an exhausted enemy.
Soviets spend years perfecting their Deep Battle Doctrin against the other best army while the US started to perfect their strategy of fighting weaker foes.
Flag Football vs NFL
Compare the bafoonery of Market Garden, which is time and again displayed as some epic battles with the vile meatgrinder Bagration, which took place roughly at the same time.
Again: a few thousand dead vs hundreds of thousands.

I know some of you guys never had to question the stuff they teach you in school, but did you honestly know that India has more men fighting the Japanese then the US? That Canada or New Zealand lost way more men compared to their population?

No doubt, the US is militarily the strongest heavyweight on the planet who benches a ton and has a beautiful chest with sculpted abs.
But his chin is made of sparkly china and he’s never been even properly hit.
And his possy talks mad shit all day how great he is.[/quote]

Compared to their population sure–but Canada’s population is 30 million TODAY, and New Zealand’s is miniscule, so that’s not really a big deal. If you have less than 1/10th the population of the US, it is not hard to take an equal or greater % of casualties to your total population if engaged in fighting. Their population was only 12 million in 1945.

You overestimate the strength of the Russians to withstand air and sea dominance. Air dominance especially, combined with the total and instantaneous loss of all material and logistic aid. You say a campaign would not have lasted long and therefore our air power would not have made a critical impact—but you do not properly take into consideration that our bombers and fighters were already there EN MASSE, ready to sortie on a few hours notice. We had tons and tons of munitions to provide them, we had infinitely better logistics, and the Soviets relied on rail transport. Further the Soviets had very little in the way of AA because, of course, Britain and the US had taken over the skies. The amount of carnage we could have wreaked from the sky would have very seriously hurt them. Also, truck convoys may change route but rail transport does not.

As a final note, your comments on Vietnam are entirely off base. Our military was fully capable of stomping them, and we did stomp them–only to have our politicians fuck everything up repeatedly. Were we to simply make a command decision to dominate our enemy, we could have done so. Instantaneously? No, of course not. Jungle warfare was new to us. But it would have happened if we were not hamstrung by elected people.

Besides which, you are seriously underestimating the amount of aid in supply, logistics, military aircraft/units, military training, and even “boots on the ground” that the VC got from both China and Russia. This was a proxy war, not simply the VC holding of a glass-jawed USA.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]

That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]

That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]

IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

However, I don’t think we necessarily would’ve fucked around fighting Stalin conventionally. We would’ve assessed our success in Japan after dropping The Bomb and we would’ve nuked him too. In fact, that may very well be the primary reason Stalin cooled his heels after taking Eastern Europe and east Germany.
[/quote]

That’s true undoubtedly. But the scenario currently at issue stipulates conventional only warfare after VE day as its premise I believe.[/quote]

IIRC, we had maybe enough material to produce one more bomb at the time we dropped the first two, and by the end of 1945 we had exactly two fat-man type nukes actually produced. Obviously enough to nuke two population centers, but it is not like we had a whole pile of nukes at our disposal. [/quote]

Yes, but the USSR didn’t know that at the time…