LOL.
The fact that someone isn’t being forced at gunpoint doesn’t mean they have to appreciate what is happening to their culture either.
Unless they are really distorting facts, which I’m not for, I think you need to let people have their own nation-centric viewpoints.
This means putting your values and beliefs ahead of others… which is perfectly natural for every country to do… and that is what has been done for centuries, perhaps millenia.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
but you make it sound as though there is some American conspiracy to destroy European culture. [/quote]
I’m sorry for not being clearer; no, I do not think there is a conspiracy. I do think American companies are excellent at pushing their product down people’s throats, and using several techniques (that some easily argue that are not particularly ethical) to eliminate competition. American companies are great at perverting the (Free-market Capitalist) system they are supposed to work in.
It’s about greed, but it’s definitely not a large-scale conspiracy, since American companies are working in their own individual interest, not through some collective effort to destroy European culture…
France’s reaction to Apple’s attempt to expand their hegemony in online music sales (through iTunes) to France was nothing short of brilliant; most other countries in Europe, however, didn?t have the balls to do the same – neither did our own government, for that matter.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
the Austrians I know are still very Austrian and don’t want to be thought of as Germans, regardless of whether they buy Coke products on occasion.[/quote]
I have two Austrian friends I’ve known since they were teenagers. I can see them “Americanize” with every visit I pay them. They might still be very “Austrian” to you, but it’s all relative – my point is that they are moving in that direction. Not that there’s anything necessarily wrong with that – however, you cannot blame them for noticing it and getting slightly alarmed.
And on a larger scale:
The first time I went to Europe I was 11 years old – my mother took me to Paris, to see Europe to help me improve my French. I’ve been going back regularly, over the decades since then – and trust me, Paris is no longer the unique, bustling city that I fell in love with when I was 11, and is now becoming a second-rate NYC… In fact, I can say these days, Paris is more American than NYC is or ever was in my lifetime.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Moreover, the formation of the EU stands to do more to dissemble national identities in European countries than does the fact that people buy food from a McDonald’s from time to time.[/quote]
I do not believe that. If at any point any of the populations of any of the countries in the EU feels that the EU is affecting national identities, the EU will far apart; both the Scandinavian countries and the UK, who are particularly sensitive to that, have already their backs turned; if for one moment any of the other countries feels the same, they will turn their backs too.
For now, the “cultural enemies” of Europe are the US and the Arab world… Maybe that will change, but not anytime soon.
[quote]knewsom wrote:
The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.[/quote]
I honestly do not believe that – with all positive things I’ve said about Europe, you might think I hold them in great regard – and I do socially and culturally, but that does not extend to their capability of making money.
The US and China have one clear goal in common: power. Money is a source of power, so we/they covet that too. That has proved to be a great economic motivator, and has served both countries well, at least in monetary terms. At the cost of a large percentage of the population living below poverty levels, but hey, that’s not what we worry about, right? What we want is a higher GDP, no matter who we have to enslave.
Europe, at least for now, is different; most Europeans have other priorities before money and power; quality of life, for them, is the first priority, and that quality of life includes ingredients that are much more important than money – things like job security, good schools, good public transit systems, good air, good water, good food – and not having people living on the street.
The popular reactions to any recent proposals (in Germany and France, among other countries) to reduce the strenght of labor laws is quite a symptom of that: Europeans want job security above money, and, trust me, I get that: job security is a fundamental ingredient of quality of life, and one they will never want to voluntarily part with, even if it costs them money.
This is just an example – there are many others…
So, unless Europe gets completely assimilated by American culture and loses its cultural identity altogether – which can actually happen, as we discussed – I honestly don’t think they will ever be able to compete with the US and China at the same level, nor I think they want to – nor I think they should. It is quite possible to provide great quality of life to your citizens without being an “economic powerhouse”. Power and Money are not everything – in fact, they’re highly overrated. If they can get motivated and be happy with other things, so be it! Who are we to judge?
The flip side of this is interesting, really. All of this means that if we ARE successful in assimilating Europe, we might actually be hurting ourselves by creating yet another competitor.
Now, imagine a world where Europe and China become so similar to the US that their most brilliant minds will no longer have an incentive to come here and work for/with us. A world where all OUR scientists and engineers were born and educated here. A world where Indian, Chinese and European companies have learned our techniques (popularized by the likes of Microsoft, Intel and Apple) to kick out their competitors.
We’d be so outnumbered and outwitted we probably wouldn’t stand a chance.
So maybe it is actually in our best interest to pull back and leave Europeans to their own devices… leave them with their job security and their quality of life, their artsy films, their multi-layered music, their complex and rich cuisine, and their 30-something languages…
[quote]hspder wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Personally, I think that those questions encourage critical thinking and analysis, which is what high school kids need to learn, instead of simple regurgitation.
Great post, knewsom. Couldn’t agree more.[/quote]
Leave it to an idiot and a feel good limo-lib to totally misunderstand what education is about. And why - following their ‘ideas’ of what education should be - the US is dumber than ever before.
Education is not about fucking critical thinking. It is about reading, writing, and counting shit. Maybe in college you can learn critical thinking, if you stay away from a certain limo-lib’s classes, but college is nothing but indoctrination.
But it’s the fucking French - so I don’t understand why it’s an issue. They are no more important to the US than any other 3rd world country. Correction: They are less than a 3rd world country. has anyone coined the phrase 4th world country yet?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
hspder wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Personally, I think that those questions encourage critical thinking and analysis, which is what high school kids need to learn, instead of simple regurgitation.
Great post, knewsom. Couldn’t agree more.
Leave it to an idiot and a feel good limo-lib to totally misunderstand what education is about. And why - following their ‘ideas’ of what education should be - the US is dumber than ever before.
Education is not about fucking critical thinking. It is about reading, writing, and counting shit. Maybe in college you can learn critical thinking, if you stay away from a certain limo-lib’s classes, but college is nothing but indoctrination.
[/quote]
The problem is that with this kind of education you can run a power plant as well as a concentration camp.
Maybe a little bit of critical thinking adds a nice touch to an “educated” person?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
hspder wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Personally, I think that those questions encourage critical thinking and analysis, which is what high school kids need to learn, instead of simple regurgitation.
Great post, knewsom. Couldn’t agree more.
Leave it to an idiot and a feel good limo-lib to totally misunderstand what education is about. And why - following their ‘ideas’ of what education should be - the US is dumber than ever before.
Education is not about fucking critical thinking. It is about reading, writing, and counting shit. Maybe in college you can learn critical thinking, if you stay away from a certain limo-lib’s classes, but college is nothing but indoctrination.
But it’s the fucking French - so I don’t understand why it’s an issue. They are no more important to the US than any other 3rd world country. Correction: They are less than a 3rd world country. has anyone coined the phrase 4th world country yet?
[/quote]
The problem is that thousands of America’s finest have died to liberate the Europeans from themselves. Since the French want to rewrite history, they’re doomed to repeat their real history…and more of our sons and brothers will die again.
In one sense, I agree with Hspder. Our cultures are different. We should simply leave them to their own devices. If they decide to annihilate each other ever again, as they’ve tried repeatedly to do so, let them go.
[quote]orion wrote:
The problem is that with this kind of education you can run a power plant as well as a concentration camp.
Maybe a little bit of critical thinking adds a nice touch to an “educated” person?[/quote]
I disagree. Our greatest gains in technology, industry and literature came when folks were just taught the three R’s.
Nowadays critical thinking is nothing more than feel-good outcome based education. It involves neither thinking, nor learning. It is an excuse for teachers not to have to really teach. Just look at how stupid our young people are.
If one is equipped with the right tools (3R’s) one is more than able to develop thinking skills on their own. A school’s job - regardless of which side of the atlantic it sits - is to educate, not indoctrinate.
Just look across the Pacific and see how much bullshit they are being spoon fed, and how badly they kick the rest ot the world’s asses when it comes to technology as well as art.
[quote]hspder wrote:
knewsom wrote:
The EU has become an economic powerhouse, and will continue to grow if Europe can continue to co-operate. I personally forsee a future with three world economic and military superpowers - China, the US, and the EU.
I honestly do not believe that – with all positive things I’ve said about Europe, you might think I hold them in great regard – and I do socially and culturally, but that does not extend to their capability of making money.
The US and China have one clear goal in common: power. Money is a source of power, so we/they covet that too. That has proved to be a great economic motivator, and has served both countries well, at least in monetary terms. At the cost of a large percentage of the population living below poverty levels, but hey, that’s not what we worry about, right? What we want is a higher GDP, no matter who we have to enslave.
Europe, at least for now, is different; most Europeans have other priorities before money and power; quality of life, for them, is the first priority, and that quality of life includes ingredients that are much more important than money – things like job security, good schools, good public transit systems, good air, good water, good food – and not having people living on the street.
The popular reactions to any recent proposals (in Germany and France, among other countries) to reduce the strenght of labor laws is quite a symptom of that: Europeans want job security above money, and, trust me, I get that: job security is a fundamental ingredient of quality of life, and one they will never want to voluntarily part with, even if it costs them money.
This is just an example – there are many others…
So, unless Europe gets completely assimilated by American culture and loses its cultural identity altogether – which can actually happen, as we discussed – I honestly don’t think they will ever be able to compete with the US and China at the same level, nor I think they want to – nor I think they should. It is quite possible to provide great quality of life to your citizens without being an “economic powerhouse”. Power and Money are not everything – in fact, they’re highly overrated. If they can get motivated and be happy with other things, so be it! Who are we to judge?
The flip side of this is interesting, really. All of this means that if we ARE successful in assimilating Europe, we might actually be hurting ourselves by creating yet another competitor.
Now, imagine a world where Europe and China become so similar to the US that their most brilliant minds will no longer have an incentive to come here and work for/with us. A world where all OUR scientists and engineers were born and educated here. A world where Indian, Chinese and European companies have learned our techniques (popularized by the likes of Microsoft, Intel and Apple) to kick out their competitors.
We’d be so outnumbered and outwitted we probably wouldn’t stand a chance.
So maybe it is actually in our best interest to pull back and leave Europeans to their own devices… leave them with their job security and their quality of life, their artsy films, their multi-layered music, their complex and rich cuisine, and their 30-something languages…
[/quote]
If europe doesn’t become as competitive as the US, China and eventually india, they will fade into obscurity…their social model will collapse(isnt it already showing cracks?). What happens when europe has a lot of competitors? Is the EU just gonna sit back with all of its tariffs protecting everything? Well that wont work…the EU must adapt or it will perish.
The US and the EU have very similar ideals and values and it is in our best interest to have a strong and stable EU, especially to ally against the likes of China who share very little of our values for human rights and freedom
[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
The problem is that with this kind of education you can run a power plant as well as a concentration camp.
Maybe a little bit of critical thinking adds a nice touch to an “educated” person?
I disagree. Our greatest gains in technology, industry and literature came when folks were just taught the three R’s.
Nowadays critical thinking is nothing more than feel-good outcome based education. It involves neither thinking, nor learning. It is an excuse for teachers not to have to really teach. Just look at how stupid our young people are.
If one is equipped with the right tools (3R’s) one is more than able to develop thinking skills on their own. A school’s job - regardless of which side of the atlantic it sits - is to educate, not indoctrinate.
Just look across the Pacific and see how much bullshit they are being spoon fed, and how badly they kick the rest ot the world’s asses when it comes to technology as well as art.
[/quote]
Teach them the technical skills to develop their own ideas? I think I agree with that because I have come across to many people lately who think having an opinion is the same as actually know or being able to do someting.
However, of course schools job is to indoctrinate young people:
Be on time!
To your job when it is asked of you and the way it is asked of you!
Respect, at least on the outside, your superiors even if you know they are complete morons!
I would argue that this is indoctrination , but more on a behavioural level.
[quote]hspder wrote:
…
So maybe it is actually in our best interest to pull back and leave Europeans to their own devices… leave them with their job security and their quality of life, their artsy films, their multi-layered music, their complex and rich cuisine, and their 30-something languages…
[/quote]
Europe is in a slow decline. They are enjoying the fruits of their ancestors labors. They don’t have a fire in their bellies like America and now China have.
Just look at the crap in France. Short work weeks, tons of vacation, huge social services, high unemployment, large unemployable underclass.
The riots and car burnings are only a precursor to the big problems to come.
This is the path they have chosen and we cannot change it.
Hopefully we can learn from their mistakes so when we go down a similar path we can avoid making the same ones.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
hspder wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Personally, I think that those questions encourage critical thinking and analysis, which is what high school kids need to learn, instead of simple regurgitation.
Great post, knewsom. Couldn’t agree more.
Leave it to an idiot and a feel good limo-lib to totally misunderstand what education is about. And why - following their ‘ideas’ of what education should be - the US is dumber than ever before.
Education is not about fucking critical thinking. It is about reading, writing, and counting shit. Maybe in college you can learn critical thinking, if you stay away from a certain limo-lib’s classes, but college is nothing but indoctrination.
…
[/quote]
I have found that college kids lose critical thinking skills and have to redevelop them in adult life.
Too much “group think” in college. The same happens in all big institutions.
[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL.[/quote]
LOL at your damn self
I hate to make generalizations but it seems liberals never place blame where blame is due. It’s that same mentality that allows a fat SOB to sue MacDonalds or a dumbass who smoked 2 packs a day for 20 years to sue big tabbacco. When you eat fast food 3 times a day for 15 years you have no one to blame but yourself.
I’m not saying Europeans shouldn’t complain about the destruction of their culture (which, as someone said earlier, is an exaggeration) but it’s obvious that their are enough Europeans who don’t have a problem with Americanization or guess what? they would stop buying American products! Europeans want American products, American movies, and American music, and with all that, for better or worse, comes American culture. You can’t have one without the other…
LOL!
Dude, it’s a process. It isn’t something that one can easily effect. You think an individual is going to turn around global consumerism, trade and commercialization?
I think not.
If people want to lament the loss of the past, as we do here all the time, they can. There’s very little we can do about it either.
However, just like here, most of society is just made up of people who don’t have the time or the inclination to think too deeply about these things. They are just busy going about their daily lives, making a living or having some drinks with friends while watching the game.
Like they are going to care enough to rise up in arms and try to figure out a way to boycott the entire process. Hell, things are so intertwined these days, it would be almost impossible anyway.
[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL!
Dude, it’s a process. It isn’t something that one can easily effect. You think an individual is going to turn around global consumerism, trade and commercialization?
I think not.
If people want to lament the loss of the past, as we do here all the time, they can. There’s very little we can do about it either.
However, just like here, most of society is just made up of people who don’t have the time or the inclination to think too deeply about these things. They are just busy going about their daily lives, making a living or having some drinks with friends while watching the game.
Like they are going to care enough to rise up in arms and try to figure out a way to boycott the entire process. Hell, things are so intertwined these days, it would be almost impossible anyway.[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more, but again, lamenting the loss of one’s past and blaming America for for that loss are two very different things. What is happening to Europe is a natural outgrowth of globalization.
America happens to be the largest exporter of goods and services so it only makes sense that our culture, with those goods and services, is spreading. That the European economy, and therefor culture, can’t keep up, speaks to Europe’s failings, not some form of American cultural colonialism.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
America happens to be the largest exporter of goods and services so it only makes sense that our culture, with those goods and services, is spreading. That the European economy, and therefor culture, can’t keep up, speaks to Europe’s failings, not some form of American cultural colonialism.
[/quote]
That what you just described is a form of cultural colonialism. And very effective, too.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Just look across the Pacific and see how much bullshit they are being spoon fed, and how badly they kick the rest ot the world’s asses when it comes to technology as well as art.
[/quote]
Huh? Give me an example. Seriously. One that cannot be explained simply by statistics (i.e., the fact that there’s a LOT more of them).
Asia is very good at optimizing the costs of production of things; their ability to innovate, however, is extremely limited, and, statistically, much inferior to both the US and Europe.
For example, since Ang Lee left, Chinese cinema went to the crapper, and is basically as bad (or even worse) than ours:
How can a country of over 1 billion people be completely dependent on ONE guy?
Because he’s not that common. And he’s from Taiwan, which is VERY different from mainland China in its education, and does incent critical thinking – for several reasons that are pretty obvious.
(and yes, he’s gay, my conservative friend, but you’re the one who mentioned art – you can’t look at great artists without bumping into a few gay men, I’m “sorry”)
Europe, on the other hand, is a lot smaller, and they somehow continue to be in the forefront of several key scientific and technological areas; we keep needing a steady flow of Europeans to fill our Ph.D. and MS slots.
Even thought there’s a LOT LESS of them than Asians at a global level…
In the past, school could focus on the basics because society provided the rest. We were surround by stimuli for our critical thinking abilities. Today, our society is all about eating pre-packaged thought. Our media actually tells us what to think. Parents really don’t have time to spend teaching their kids that thinking is good.
I agree that US schools and especially colleges do a horrible job of teaching critical thinking – mostly because these days they are teaching people how to pass tests (yes, that happens in college too).
But if it is not the school’s job to teach the kids to think critically, who’s going to do it? Parents, most of which don?t even know how to eat properly?
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Couldn’t agree more, but again, lamenting the loss of one’s past and blaming America for for that loss are two very different things. What is happening to Europe is a natural outgrowth of globalization.
America happens to be the largest exporter of goods and services so it only makes sense that our culture, with those goods and services, is spreading. That the European economy, and therefor culture, can’t keep up, speaks to Europe’s failings, not some form of American cultural colonialism.
[/quote]
Damn. How are we going to argue if we agree?
Anyway, I suspect blaming America is natural because it is the most visible cause or participant in the process – whether or not there is any reason for blame of course is a different matter.
Besides, for all intents and purposes the US expresses a lot of disdain, some of it quite publicly, by politicians, media and general populace, about any and all other nations on the planet.
Blowback makes sense… if they have pride in their own nations it’s only natural they get offended and lash back about these things.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Just look at the crap in France. Short work weeks, tons of vacation, huge social services, high unemployment, large unemployable underclass.
The riots and car burnings are only a precursor to the big problems to come.[/quote]
It’s interesting how you can look at Europe so critically – and pessimistically – but not apply the same lens to the US…
So let me reverse roles a see how you would look at France if you used the same lens you use for the US:
Even in spite of all those problems, the overwhelming majority of the French and German people (Germany has similar problems, albeit not as serious) has a much better quality of life than the majority of the US population. And the difference has been increasing in their favor, not diminishing.
The GDP has also continued to increase, even without any increase in government expenditure or consumer debt (which are the two factors that have fueled GDP increases here in the US).
In particular, their GDP per hour worked has been increasing and is still higher than the US one. They need more vacation because they work harder when they are working.
Hopefully they’ll kick out the imbecile right-wing government they have there now in the next elections and the social unrest will stop.
[quote]hspder wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Just look across the Pacific and see how much bullshit they are being spoon fed, and how badly they kick the rest ot the world’s asses when it comes to technology as well as art.
Huh? Give me an example. Seriously. One that cannot be explained simply by statistics (i.e., the fact that there’s a LOT more of them).
Asia is very good at optimizing the costs of production of things; their ability to innovate, however, is extremely limited, and, statistically, much inferior to both the US and Europe.
For example, since Ang Lee left, Chinese cinema went to the crapper, and is basically as bad (or even worse) than ours:
How can a country of over 1 billion people be completely dependent on ONE guy?
Because he’s not that common. And he’s from Taiwan, which is VERY different from mainland China in its education, and does incent critical thinking – for several reasons that are pretty obvious.
(and yes, he’s gay, my conservative friend, but you’re the one who mentioned art – you can’t look at great artists without bumping into a few gay men, I’m “sorry”)
Europe, on the other hand, is a lot smaller, and they somehow continue to be in the forefront of several key scientific and technological areas; we keep needing a steady flow of Europeans to fill our Ph.D. and MS slots.
Even thought there’s a LOT LESS of them than Asians at a global level…
In the past, school could focus on the basics because society provided the rest. We were surround by stimuli for our critical thinking abilities. Today, our society is all about eating pre-packaged thought. Our media actually tells us what to think. Parents really don’t have time to spend teaching their kids that thinking is good.
I agree that US schools and especially colleges do a horrible job of teaching critical thinking – mostly because these days they are teaching people how to pass tests (yes, that happens in college too).
But if it is not the school’s job to teach the kids to think critically, who’s going to do it? Parents, most of which don?t even know how to eat properly?
[/quote]
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
However, there are still quite a few excellent film makers and films in mainland China. We shouldn’t forget Zhang YiMou, or Wu Ming (aka Wang Xiao Shuai), or Feng XiaoGang. It’s not like Ang Lee was the end all be all of Chinese cinema - Hero was an incredible film, nearly EVERYTHING by Wu Ming is awesome (then again, he’s underground), and the last film I saw of Feng Xiaogang’s was “Shou Ji” which never made it out of the country and doesnt’ even have a US name - even still it was an incredible film.
I also wouldn’t sall all of US cinema is crap either - we’ve made some INCREDIBLE movies. I mean, true, MOST of what Hollywood churns out is absolute crap, and the Indie films from last year were WORSE (Junebug, Squid and the Whale, etc. SUCKED), but NOBODY can do a popcorn flick like Hollywood, and there are plenty of great films that are made in the states - like anything directed by Peter Weir, most of Terrence Malik’s work, David LeBrun’s film Proteus was the most trancendental documentary I’ve EVER seen, and there are countless others.
Sure, you have to wade through piles of Lindsay Lohan and Brittney Spears CRAP to get to the good stuff, but the fact that the US produces utter shit most of the time doesn’t preclude us actually having brilliant art and positive cultural aspects. …we just forget all about it whenever we walk into a Target or Wal-Mart.