[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Can a being that is all powerful create something he doesn’t have absolute control of? (can he make a rock so big he canâ??t lift it?) If he doesn’t control it or didn’t intend absolutely everything, he isn’t all powerful.
[/quote]
He does have absolute control over his creation. He simple chooses, uses his free will to not to interfere at the moment, or at any given moment.
I see it as leading by example.
Cortes:
Why why why…I told myself I was not to get sucked in to this subject!!!
Sometimes my free will is total fail.
Man I go to bed in Japan and wake up to a three page long thread. I am going to need a bit to time to catch up. But right now my 2 year old son is informing me that I have to watch him draw pictures, and that I have no choice in the matter, lol.
So yes, Alpha, I’m feeling the irony, as well 
No offense to anybody else, but I’m askin him right now.
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance take,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.
A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
“The stars aren’t aligned,
Or the gods are malign…”
Blame is better to give than receive.
Chorus
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose freewill.
There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them; they weren’t born in Lotusland.
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can’t pray for a place
In heaven’s unearthly estate.
Chorus
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that’s far too fleet.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< that earlier conversation led me to do something I normally do not have to do: To admit I could not explain the basis or origin for one of my core beliefs: that there exists and man possesses free will and the ability to determine the arc of his earthly existence. [/quote]Lemme start with this. Another question first. Don’t let me down here. What is THE, bar none, THE most important choice a man (or woman) will ever make?
[/quote]
Without pondering it too much, I would have to say deciding to let go and trust in God.
I wrote more but I just erased it and I’ll leave it at this for now.
I found I was spending more psychological energy trying to read the punch I thought you might be telegraphing. The first sentence was pretty much spontaneous, though.
[quote]forlife wrote:
It might help if someone would define what they mean by free will.
Is free will the capacity to act without being influenced by anything external to the person?
Is it even possible not to be influenced by anything external to the person?
And is the person himself not a composite of influences outside his control?[/quote]
I tried to cover this in the OP by asking if man has the ability to determine the arc of his earthly existence.As we are contingent beings, I don’t have any illusions that we would ever be able to exert influence without having been first influenced. My questions are trying to get at the rest of it.
For the purpose of this argument, I guess I am asking if humans possess some spark of non-contingence or, possibly even, omni-contingence with which they may exert their will and ultimately be held accountable for their actions.
In short, are we men, or wet robots?
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Without pondering it too much, I would have to say deciding to let go and trust in God. >>>[/quote]That’s close enough. In relation to His creation wouldn’t you say that God agrees that the decision to savingly believe His gospel is of paramount significance? Seein that He sent His only eternally begotten Son to die for it n all? [quote]Cortes wrote:I wrote more but I just erased it and I’ll leave it at this for now.
I found I was spending more psychological energy trying to read the punch I thought you might be telegraphing. The first sentence was pretty much spontaneous, though.
[/quote]Your transparency is a disarming virtue my friend. Yes, there is a punch and it is THE key to this whole topic for professing Christians. Unbelievers may or may not find it important depending on what version of unbelief they allege.
[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote: Rush: Freewill[/quote]I have R U S H tattooed across the knuckles of my left hand (Many years ago) and could have recited the lyrics to this song from memory just like I told mikethebear when he posted the same thing last summer.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It might help if someone would define what they mean by free will.
Is free will the capacity to act without being influenced by anything external to the person?
Is it even possible not to be influenced by anything external to the person?
And is the person himself not a composite of influences outside his control?[/quote]
I tried to cover this in the OP by asking if man has the ability to determine the arc of his earthly existence.As we are contingent beings, I don’t have any illusions that we would ever be able to exert influence without having been first influenced. My questions are trying to get at the rest of it.
For the purpose of this argument, I guess I am asking if humans possess some spark of non-contingence or, possibly even, omni-contingence with which they may exert their will and ultimately be held accountable for their actions.
In short, are we men, or wet robots?[/quote]
Men or wet robots? Hmmm I’ll go with my gut and say men. Thanks for simplifying things for us now we don’t have to bother with actually using our brains to decide the issue rationally.
It’s amazing you throw out a bunch of non-sense flashy words without combining them in to anything resembling an argument for your claim.
[quote]joyfull_beast wrote:<<< Men or wet robots? Hmmm I’ll go with my gut and say men. Thanks for simplifying things for us now we don’t have to bother with actually using our brains to decide the issue rationally.
It’s amazing you throw out a bunch of non-sense flashy words without combining them in to anything resembling an argument for your claim.[/quote]You are one obnoxious arrogant little twit ya know that? You come to this site and with your very 1st post declare everybody here an idiot, entirely unworthy of you tarnishing your towering intellect to engage. You are rude and abusive to people who have been cordial and polite to you. Get your face outta your textbooks and learn some common decency.
[quote]joyfull_beast wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It might help if someone would define what they mean by free will.
Is free will the capacity to act without being influenced by anything external to the person?
Is it even possible not to be influenced by anything external to the person?
And is the person himself not a composite of influences outside his control?[/quote]
I tried to cover this in the OP by asking if man has the ability to determine the arc of his earthly existence.As we are contingent beings, I don’t have any illusions that we would ever be able to exert influence without having been first influenced. My questions are trying to get at the rest of it.
For the purpose of this argument, I guess I am asking if humans possess some spark of non-contingence or, possibly even, omni-contingence with which they may exert their will and ultimately be held accountable for their actions.
In short, are we men, or wet robots?[/quote]
Men or wet robots? Hmmm I’ll go with my gut and say men. Thanks for simplifying things for us now we don’t have to bother with actually using our brains to decide the issue rationally.
It’s amazing you throw out a bunch of non-sense flashy words without combining them in to anything resembling an argument for your claim.
[/quote]
I understand you are trying to establish yourself here, but relax. I’m not sure what I did to offend you. I don’t even know you.
Nobody here is your enemy. Yet. If there is a part of my statement you disagree with, then you are more than welcome to attempt to refute it. That means that if you expect me, at least, to engage you, you can lay off the personal attacks, ad hominems, strawmen and bluster. If you have something to say, then please say it. Try acting like an adult.
And in case you didn’t notice or comprehend it, I never made a claim. The entire purpose of my post clearly stated that I was seeking knowledge on this topic. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. How about proving you know how to use it?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:What is a display of free will?[/quote] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
[/quote]
What is a god without his creation?[/quote]Perfect in every way, lacking nothing in the internal relations of Father, Son and Holy spirit. Why then did He create? To display all that He is before an intelligent audience for His own glory. Why would an infinite, perfect, being who lacks nothing need to do this? He didn’t. Why would He want to? No idea. I’m just glad that He did because not only do I get to willingly and joyfully participate, but I get to tell you how to also willingly and joyfully participate. A most awesome privilege. You’re unwillingly participating now, but that doesn’t have to be.
Sorry I didn’t get to this sooner. You know I’d never intentionally ignore you Eph.
No worries, just forget my exact same question in the other thread.
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Can a being that is all powerful create something he doesn’t have absolute control of? (can he make a rock so big he canÃ?¢??t lift it?) If he doesn’t control it or didn’t intend absolutely everything, he isn’t all powerful.
[/quote]
He does have absolute control over his creation. He simple chooses, uses his free will to not to interfere at the moment, or at any given moment.
I see it as leading by example.
[/quote]
If he knows what will happen when he creates us, aren’t we pre-determined? And if he willingly gives up authority, is he all powerful?
The only way I see free will is if he created us not knowing what we would do, But that is contradictory to the notion of an all powerful god.
Then again maybe god being outside of time isn’t the same as knowing what will happen.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:<<< Then again maybe god being outside of time isn’t the same as knowing what will happen. [/quote]You’re gittin closer, but I really wanna stay on track with Cortes for now. Think about whether God can foreKNOW an uncertainty. Also when the bible says people are foreknown, the original language strongly carries the notion of intimacy. Not that He saw our future like I see somebody on TV, but that He KNEW us before creation like I know my wife.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:<<< Then again maybe god being outside of time isn’t the same as knowing what will happen. [/quote]You’re gittin closer, but I really wanna stay on track with Cortes for now. Think about whether God can foreKNOW an uncertainty. Also when the bible says people are foreknown, the original language strongly carries the notion of intimacy. Not that He saw our future like I see somebody on TV, but that He KNEW us before creation like I know my wife.
[/quote]
Sometimes I think he purposely made us just smart enough to know that we don’t know.
“As for me, all I know is that I know nothing.”
Tirib, before we continue, I want to make certain where the both of us are coming from. Or, rather, going to.
I am okay with you leading me where ever it is you have in mind, and I, in particular, cannot complain because this is my own go-to argument form. (And we can both thank that wonderful pagan Socrates for it. Just a friendly jab
If this is the vehicle we will use to explore the will, I would just like to make one request. I’d ask that you are clear and unambiguous with me.I don’t want to be blindfolded and course corrected to the end of this trail. I want to walk its length with you in broad daylight, side by side, if that’s possible.
There is not the slightest suggestion of deception on your part contained in the above statement. I think you know that and know what I mean.
And if we can both agree to that, then without further ado…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Without pondering it too much, I would have to say deciding to let go and trust in God. >>>[/quote]That’s close enough. In relation to His creation wouldn’t you say that God agrees that the decision to savingly believe His gospel is of paramount significance? Seein that He sent His only eternally begotten Son to die for it n all?
[/quote]
Certainly. Faith is so strongly emphasized throughout the gospels that it almost seems it could be described as a “work.”
I’ll admit that the above paragraph of yours was what led me to write my last post. I’m sure you know that as a Catholic I don’t believe that paramount = only. But I also believe that works are the fruit of faith, and that the latter necessarily must come first. Maybe that’s not even where you are going with this. Maybe you want to take the fork in the road with the words “the decision to believe” instead?
I’m looking forward to having the wind knocked out of me.
[quote]joyfull_beast wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
[quote]joyfull_beast wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Free will exists. The human brain has evolved as a complex decision making machine. It is precisely because of the fact that we have to make so many choices in order to survive that it is so complex. The concious mind’s default axiom is that the choices you make directly effect the outcome of your life.
You have constant proof that free will exists every waking moment of your life. To ignore this is stupid. And if you wish to take the stance that all decisions are pre-ordained, since we are fully rational and intelligent beings with strict mechanisms for making decisions that will always pick the same answers given the same circumstances, you are ignoring the fact that humans are NOT always rational or intelligent and quite capable of making very stupid mistakes that almost defy sanity and logic, and if given the same decision twice could easily pick a different choice without knowing the future or having the benefit of hindsight.[/quote]
Perfect example of someone who has no idea what free will is, but probably has the same idea as 99% of people who talk about it. No one is saying you can’t make choices bro. [/quote]
Determinism and choices are perfectly compatible right? Free will isn’t the ability to make choices? Just because you’ve read some philosophy books does not mean you understood whats in them BRAH. If you want to make a point, then articulate it. And if you want to spout some “free will is an illusion” compatibilist crap that you read on a cereal box, then get me some xanax first.[/quote]
lol
first of all i articulated several points i wanted to make in previous posts. and you don’t even understand what a compatibilist is yet you keep throwing the term around. they think determinism is compatible with free will, so they wouldn’t say “free will is an illusion” like you posted lol.
what a basic error and proves my point about people who know nothing about a subject eager to give their opinion on it, while being too lazy and intellectually dishonest to at least learn the fundamentals of the issue.
fyi the categories are: compatibilists vs incompatibilists. the IC’s are broken down in to what’s called libertarians (not to be confused with the political group) who think we have free will and thus the world is not determined, and the NFWGs (the no free will guys, yes this is the techincal term lol) who say obviously that there is no free will, and are silent on whether or not determinism is true.
I’m a NFWG which makes me an incompatibilist.
The idea that you chose, for instance, what cereal to eat and so you have free will misses the issue entirely. It’s similar to people who kick a wall and declare that therefore the wall exists, ignoring the more fundamental question of the external world (e.g., if we’re in the matrix, you can kick the wall but it’s just a computer simulation you’re in, the wall doesn’t really exist. in reality, you’re sitting in a fucking goo being harvested for body heat and your sense perceptions are being controlled by a computer program)
The other problem with debating free will is that 90% of people are committed to it before they even know the first thing about it, because of theological reasons.
[/quote]
Ironically, the particular issue of free will in philosphy is one I have spent a great deal of time studying. If “articulating your points” is posting the work of someone else, and then picking out one particular part to cut and paste from, then make a sweeping generisation about everyone else posting in the thread BEFORE they’ve even posted, then yes you articulate them very well, and no-one could fairly accuse you of being arrogant and closed minded.
And I find it amazing that you claim to be a compatibilist yet do not fully understand the implications of your supposedly chosen philosphical position. “free will is an illusion” is a neat way of summarising the bulk of classical compatibilisms arguments up, since thats what its conclusions amount to. I suggest you pay more attention in class if you want to get those credits.