Free Will

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Here’s the thing, Tirib. As a Mormon, I prayed sincerely to know if my church was true. And god told me it was true, through the undeniable power of the holy ghost. >>>[/quote]As a Mormon you were just as dead in trespasses and sins as you are now and that very prayer was itself sin. God has already stated in His Word that mormonism is false. God has never told one Mormon that an idolatrous polytheistic religion is true. You have never yet been alive Elder Forlife. Never.

That’s what you keep missing. Once more. Christianity is not the acquiescence to a set of intellectual or even spiritual propositions among competing options. Being a religious conservative does not make one a Christian. It is the sovereign resurrection of a human soul from actual death to actual life. The same way that those who are naturally dead cannot interact with the kingdom of this world, all children of Adam are born into that spiritual death and are unable to interact with the kingdom of God. That is until He Himself births them into new life in that very kingdom by virtue of the indwelling presence of the King Himself.
[/quote]

Other believers can (and do) say exactly the same about your particular beliefs. They know YOU are spiritually dead and deceived. How do you know they’re wrong? I received powerful, poignant, undeniable spiritual knowledge from god that my church was true, and when I testified, the spirit bore witness to others that it was true. I KNEW that the LDS church was god’s true church. I was born again, through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. I was a new creature, made whole and clean through him. I would have given my life before denying what I knew to be true.

Utter certainty is different from knowledge. In order for it to be knowledge, it must reflect what is actually true, and not just what we “know” to be true.

That is the inescapable quandary of every human belief, religious or otherwise. We can never truly “know” whether we have knowledge or just misguided certainty.

One of the most profound statements ever made on this board, so profound that most don’t comprehend it well enough to apply to their own beliefs:

342

[quote]kamui wrote:
Just out of curiosity, could you show me that you’re really, truly alive ? How would you do it?
could you concretely define, explain or describe what you means by “interact with the kindgom of God”
[/quote]Describe? Yes. Concretely define? Sorta. PROVE, as in render objectively certain on the basis of unbelieving logic? Nadda chance. The very attempt would itself be a concession of the falsity of my position. A thing I would gladly prefer being skinned alive rather than doing.

Gimme about a day or so please.

343

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Unless YOU know EVERYTHING, YOU can be certain about NOTHING.[/quote]God DOES and IS both. He cannot give me all HIS knowledge directly, but He does give me HIS certainty by His glorious grace through HIS gift of faith. No other God but mine is even alleged to have this certainty. We appear to be goin in circles here Elder Forlife.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:<<< Ah, gnosticism, nice.[/quote]I can’t think of any reason why you should, but you clearly have no knowledge of either gnosticism or Christianity.
[/quote]

I know that you preach a gnostic version of it.

If all else fails you resort to “truths” that can only be experienced.

In that way you are much like Zen Buddhism or Daoism.

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Let me elaborate.

You claimed that Forlifes intuitions were wrong because he had been spiritually dead.

You claim that your intuitions are right because you are not.

So, the only way one can “know” is if one already believes what you do, i.e is one of the initiated true believers who have access to knowledge that is hidden from the rest of us.

One of the main reasons Voegelin referred to the mass movements of the 20th century as political religions is because they operate similarly.

That is how gnostic movements think.

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Orion you are simply wrong (everywhere that really matters), but I believe sincerely so. I will do my best to squeeze some time to tell you why, but Kamui’s first.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Unless YOU know EVERYTHING, YOU can be certain about NOTHING.[/quote]God DOES and IS both. He cannot give me all HIS knowledge directly, but He does give me HIS certainty by His glorious grace through HIS gift of faith. No other God but mine is even alleged to have this certainty. We appear to be goin in circles here Elder Forlife.
[/quote]

Your reasoning is circular, not our discussion.

You don’t know everything, so you cannot be certain about anything. Since you don’t know everything, you can’t be certain your god exists or that your god has told you he exists. It could all be a mental/emotional/social/cultural/religious fabrication that, however poignant and real it seems to you, doesn’t reflect reality. Since you don’t know everything, you can’t rule this possibility out.

It’s easy for you to see this in others, and so hard to see it in yourself.

348

Elder Forlife has been taking “how to read dozens of posts where somebody says something and still not hear them say it” lessons from Pat.

Yet once more after at least a half dozen posts TO ELDER FORLIFE saying essentially this and this particular post being re-pasted for the literal maybe 10th time. I said:

[quote]2+2 does not equal 4 without God because two, plus, equals and four all have no meaning without Him. The statement I just made has no meaning without Him. Every upcoming protestation to the contrary has no meaning without Him. As my man Van Til was fond of saying. God is Himself the emplacement upon which men mount the very weapons they attempt to use to destroy Him. They can’t help it.

Pagans jump and down, stamp their feet with red face glowing while they demand there be no circular reasoning. That is humorous at best. When forced to face the foundation of their alleged beliefs, every time it comes down to the laws of logic. Laws which are invisible, immaterial, absolute and universal. Sound familiar? When I demand proof of the validity of the laws of logic they are trapped either re-appealing to those same laws which is circular or hypothetically looking somewhere else which destroys their authority.

Of course I also engage in circular reasoning and make no pretense otherwise because ALL finite reason is by definition and in the nature of the case eventually circular. It never reaches the termination point of ultimate resolution because it’s like finite see? The dead logic of unbelievers circles around THEM and hence never ultimately explains anything whatsoever. Mine circles around an infinite intellect and ultimately explains everything. They by utterly preeminent unconditional faith in themselves loudly proclaim what they fallaciously perceive as the brilliance of their own unavoidably content-less existence. I by utterly preeminent unconditional faith in the triune God of Christianity loudly proclaim HIS brilliance and rest assured that He is the explanation for everything.

It’s not that unbelievers do not advance true knowledge and hence contribute much good to the world. Of course they do, but they do it in spite of and not because of their own foundational beliefs. It’s only because my foundational beliefs are true that anything they do bears fruit. They hate that. They hate God. They are His enemies. Same as I was. That’s why Paul told us in Romans 1 that they “suppress” or as the Greek has it, they “hold under” the truth in their unrighteousness. Picture a beach ball in the water. They keep holding it down, while it keeps popping up. That’s how they attempt to hide from their true selves and the God who created them. Paul says they are without excuse. God has reveled Himself unavoidably everywhere and especially IN themselves as created in His very image fractured though it is in sin.

THAT is the discussion that has to happen or any quibbling about this or that particular proof or evidence has no genuine framework to even legitimately take place.[/quote]

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Kamui and Orion I apologize. I have been barely able to be here and haven’t gotten to your responses yet.

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Just wondering if anyone can tell me if they think free will and predestination can co-exist/be reconciled? Do you think Molinism successfully posits this?

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Just wondering if anyone can tell me if they think free will and predestination can co-exist/be reconciled? Do you think Molinism successfully posits this?[/quote]
Yes

Start at 1:34:00.

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Thanks, watching it now.

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Speaking to one of the things you asked in the other thread, brother Joab is a perfect example. I have no doubt that this young man loves the same God I do. None. I also observe that he is exceedingly capable and seeks to use his gifts for the glory of our Lord. A rare and beautiful thing today, especially among people his age and which I do praise God for.

All that said, he and I disagree profoundly on some rather major, in my view, but not fatal theological areas.

I do not require, nor could I, that people believe precisely as I do on every area of doctrine to be embraced as brethren.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Speaking to one of the things you asked in the other thread, brother Joab is a perfect example. I have no doubt that this young man loves the same God I do. None. I also observe that he is exceedingly capable and seeks to use his gifts for the glory of our Lord. A rare and beautiful thing today, especially among people his age and which I do praise God for.

All that said, he and I disagree profoundly on some rather major, in my view, but not fatal theological areas.

I do not require, nor could I, that people believe precisely as I do on every area of doctrine to be embraced as brethren.[/quote]

Fair enough. I could never agree with the concept of “total depravity.”

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[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Just wondering if anyone can tell me if they think free will and predestination can co-exist/be reconciled? Do you think Molinism successfully posits this?[/quote]
Yes

Start at 1:34:00.[/quote]

Very interesting thanks. The subject raises all sorts of implications in relation to Ontology, Christology, Epistemology and even physics/quantum physics. It’s something I’ll have to give a great deal of thought to before I can understand it fully.

356

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Just wondering if anyone can tell me if they think free will and predestination can co-exist/be reconciled? Do you think Molinism successfully posits this?[/quote]

No, it cannot. Plain and simple. There are other ways of reconciling the problem of omniscience and freewill. Multiples actually. Any of them are possible… Where most people fail is that they do not recognize omniscience as being subject also to omnipotence.
If you believe God is who he is, you must also believe that he has control over his own ‘cognition’.
It doesn’t mean that the paradox doesn’t exist, it just means that it doesn’t have to. Anybody claiming to know the way God himself reconciles it is a liar and is proposing a heresy, plain and simple. God never revealed it…Nor does he have to. All we can do is speculate. When I do, I error on the side of logic as it is most likely.

357

[quote]kamui wrote:
Just out of curiosity, could you show me that you’re really, truly alive ? How would you do it ?
could you concretely define, explain or describe what you means by “interact with the kindgom of God”[/quote]I apologize for the very long delay here Kamui. What I mean by interacting with the kingdom of God is firstly living with the concrete assurance of the truth of His Word both living and written. The living Word in my heart bearing witness to the written Word in the bible. Is this some sort of sensation or voice in my head? No. I open my eyes every morning after dreaming every night and take every step of my day with the concrete unshakable knowledge that I matter and what I think and say and do matters because there IS a God whose unthinkable power, purity and magnificent majesty is either dishonored or glorified thereby.

Interacting with the Kingdom of God is interacting with God Himself as He lives in the heart of every true Christian by faith which is itself His gift. Anything that can be rendered certain by human logic is by definition NOT the God of the bible. That God is of such an exalted nature as to be uncontainable by logical constructs that He is Himself the author of. Before I go further, here is a definition of God that I accept as being exceedingly biblical.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646:
CHAPTER II.
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity.

I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory, most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin; and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

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[quote]orion wrote:<<< So, the only way one can “know” is if one already believes what you do, i.e is one of the initiated true believers who have access to knowledge that is hidden from the rest of us. >>>[/quote]Nothing is hidden from anybody. Absolutely EVERY possible and actual object of knowledge, physical, logical, empirical etc. screams that the God I serve is not only real but also the only moral authority in existence anywhere and for all time and eternity. That is the real rub.

The problem is not with the objective knowledge of God which is in altogether plain sight utterly everywhere. The problem is with the corruption of sinful man who WILL NOT see it because he CANNOT see it because he will not see it because he cannot see it and so on. He cannot see it because he’s dead and symptomatic of this death is also his refusal to see it.

This has nothing whatever to do with gnosticism or manicheanism which holds that matter is inherently evil while spirit is good and the object of true worship is the wholesale suppression of all things material in an effort to transcend the body into pure idealistic spirit. In a nutshell.

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Interested in how people interpret this:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,

9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1

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There’s plenty more. LOTS in the O.T. too. Read the 10th chapter of Isaiah 5-16 and the 14th of Ezekiel 6-11 to start. Systematic Theology is the ticket. I AM TELLIN YOU my friend. Assume NOTHING except God is God n you ain’t. Study the whole bible with what you find God saying about Himself governing all the rest. (in a nutshell) It’s also not that tough most of the time to figure out what is intended to be literal and what isn’t. It’ll practically tell you itself out loud. People just don’t wanna hear it. You will wind up right where the Westminster Assembly did.

Also, make no mistake. You will see. People will find a way around EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that steps on their self exalted ego. I’ll leave you tonight with my oft quoted gem from Isaiah 46. The LORD is speaking:

[quote]9-"Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,

10-Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, “My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure”;

11-Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it. [/quote] If His good pleasure is to save everybody then He’s a liar and does not accomplish all His good pleasure after all. It’s looks like it’s our purpose being established. No. As He says here. HE is God. There is none other or like Him who declares the end from the beginning, the establishment of His purpose and the accomplishment of ALL His good pleasure. It is EXACTLY this and ONLY this, that provides the ground for all human logic and certainty as I am incessantly harping upon. He alone is absolutely certain and uncontingent as this says. NOTHING can occur that is not ultimately His purpose and good pleasure. That means He is never surprised. He has never learned anything because He has always known everything because EVERYTHING is His purpose. HE has spoken. HE will truly bring it to pass. HE has planned it. Surely HE will do it. It’s all about Him. Once that’s surrendered to? The Word of almighty God comes gloriously to life in both your heart and your hands. I promise.