France Alarmed at Obama's Iranian Capitulation

I just wrote an edit, but something screwy is going on with the post, so if I end up repeating myself, apologies.

If I am not making true statements, please correct me. I believe that I am. The definition of treason is pretty clear:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Terrorists are our enemy - have been for a while now. Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism. That makes IRAN our enemy. Barrack Hussein Obama, peace be upon him, is openly courting Iran and offering to lift sanctions against them - all while they are chanting “death to America” in their streets. Lifting sanctions would both AID and COMFORT them. Therefore our President is committing TREASON…

Am I missing something here? Help my little brain comprehend what appears to be pretty fucking simple…

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Bis, if you’re convinced you’re confident in your assurances here and willing to put up cold, hard cash I’d be willing to wager you Iran never makes it 10 years; never honors its commitments.

Wanna bet?[/quote]

I’ve made assurances regarding the potential efficacy of a final agreement, not the longevity of one. I’ve stated in no uncertain terms that it’s precisely because I do not trust Iran that I am for a deal; the increased inspection and monitoring measures of a final agreement will ensure an Iranian nuclear program that is more limited and transparent than it has been in years. This would greatly increase the odds of detecting and preventing an Iranian nuclear breakout or sneak-out.

Bismark, Is my question too simplistic for you? I mean, surely someone as knowledgeable and as well educated as you can explain what I’m missing here…

Perhaps another layer to my question is this: HOW is an “enemy” of the United States defined? Because W had Iran right in there with the “Axis of Evil”. When did THAT change? Who defines who our enemies are? The President? Congress? The People? The Press?

I mean, just last month, Iran’s supreme leader - THE GUY IN CHARGE OF IRAN - was recorded saying "death to America. But the White House brushed that off as “pandering to his base”. Two flaws with that argument: 1) This asshole doesn’t have a “base” - he kills, tortures and imprisons those who oppose him - He doesn’t need to “pander” to anyone. 2) World leaders need to be held accountable for what they say, or they don’t… If Bibi said “there will be no Palestinian state as long as I am prime minister” the DAY before an election, now THAT’S pandering to his base. But the White House spent WEEKS raking Bibi over the coals because of that statement saying, “we have no choice but to take Netanyahu at his word”. So which one is it? Are world leaders ACCOUNTABLE for what they say? Or aren’t they?

Why should we ignore the supreme leader of a gang of shiite fanatics egging on a crowd chanting “death to America” during nuclear negotiations? Is that how Iranians negotiate in “good faith”?

If a LEADER of a country is chanting “death to America” within the last month, would that NOT make that country an enemy by ANY FUCKING STANDARD?

I am a citizen of the United States of America. Iran’s supreme leader has openly and loudly proclaimed that he wants me, my family and everything I hold dear TO DIE… How is he not my enemy?

I know, I’m not a very smart person and I’m poorly educated. But please could you enlighten me? What am I missing here? This seems like pretty simple, straight forward stuff…

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

They are paying money to organizations that KILL PEOPLE. People who happen to be OUR ALLIES. People who happen to be OUR SOLDIERS.
[/quote]

True, never mind even what they did to our troops in Iraq, I’m going way back to the 80’s in Lebanon with the atrocities of Iranian backed Hezbollah. Hell, there’s even theories these guys aided Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda at one time or another.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Hell, there’s even theories these guys aided Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda at one time or another.[/quote]

Nope. Hatred between the Shia and Sunni is visceral and dates back over 1300 years. Despite the recent century, the hatred towards us westerners cannot even be compared to the hatred felt towards the “deniers”. A lapsed one is worse that an infidel, as they say.

See Iraq, Yemen and even Lebanon. They have no qualms about blowing up in each others places of worship, and ISIS is nothing more that a very nasty sunni militia.

The idea that Iranian shias would help a Saudi operation such as Al-Qaeda i absurd.

Iranians have their own terrorist proxies - Hezbollah. And they are waging a bloody war in Syria right now against Saudi/UAE/Qatar funded foreign sunnis, who in turn are fighting local sunnis along tribal lines.

The people of the western end of the fertile crescent (current Lebanon, western Syria) were allied with the tribes of the Zagros mountains (Kurdistan, Iran) even before islam burst onto the world stage.

As far the “Axis of Evil” thing is concerned, I distinctly remember Condoleezza Rice being unaware in an interview of the shia sunni split. Considering that 99% of violence is perpetuated among muslims themselves based on this schism, this was shocking.

For example, ISIS invaded a Palestine refugee camp Yarmouk near Damascus a few days ago, killed a shitload of civilians there and beheaded senior Hamas commanders (remember, in this case this is sunni vs. sunni).

As Israel wasn’t involved, I didn’t see any outrage in the Western media, street protests and pictures of helpless children. The same thing about Saudi airstrikes in Yemen that are killing shia civilians.

People in Syria and the Middle East are duking it out along religious and tribal lines for millennia, this thing hasn’t started with the “evil Americans”, nor with the Jewish immigration in Palestine for that matter.

Yet almost no US policy maker understands these centuries-old grudges, at takes everything literally and at face value, without dwelling deeper. And locals are exploiting this - just say that you’re “pro-democratic” and you’ll get the US backing in a second.

Policy making became like Fox news, buzzwords and faux hysteria.

can the sunni - shiite civil war juts happen already? We keep trying to paint this as something other than bickering between the secs, and the west keeps getting caught in the crossfire. Just kill each other already, sort it out, and then let the world know when you’re ready to play as adults on the world stage.

[quote]Aggv wrote:
can the sunni - shiite civil war juts happen already? We keep trying to paint this as something other than bickering between the secs, and the west keeps getting caught in the crossfire. Just kill each other already, sort it out, and then let the world know when you’re ready to play as adults on the world stage. [/quote]

It’s been going on in one way or another since the year 632.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Aggv wrote:
can the sunni - shiite civil war juts happen already? We keep trying to paint this as something other than bickering between the secs, and the west keeps getting caught in the crossfire. Just kill each other already, sort it out, and then let the world know when you’re ready to play as adults on the world stage. [/quote]

It’s been going on in one way or another since the year 632.[/quote]

Exactly, enough already. They need to grow up and stop; or just kill everyone. I’ll support whichever will cost the USA the least amount of money and lives.

So… I’ve read two or three times this may very well prompt a nuclear arms race…

Any truth to that?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Maybe I missed it but I don’t believe it’s come up here yet about the unconstitutional end-run once again Obama is trying to pull off by labeling this as an agreement and not a treaty (subject to Senate approval).

Even liberal Chuck Schumer (likely the next Democrat Senate Majority leader) is squawking.[/quote]

The Constitution does not define the term treaty, but has two relevant provisions dealing with treaty practice. Under Article II, section 2.2, the president has the power with “the advice and consent” of two-thirds of the Senate to make treaties. The president ratifies and proclaims treaties, not the Senate. Article VI, section 2, declares that “all Treaties made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby.” In addition to “treaties”, the president has the power to make other international agreements (1) on the basis of congressional authorization, (2) on the basis of his own foreign relations power, or (3) on the basis of authority contained in an earlier treaty made pursuant to Article II.

If the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action results in a final agreement, it will not be a bilateral agreement between Iran and the US, but rather one that will be concluded with the participation of five other countries, including all permanent members of the Security Council, and will also be endorsed by a Security Council resolution. Congress has no authority in regard to the dealings of the UNSC, and has no power to veto any resolutions that body may conclude. Executive agreements do not require the Senate’s final approval. They are binding international obligations made solely by the executive branch. According to international law, Congress may not modify the terms of the agreement at any time as they claim, and if Congress adopts any measure to impede its implementation, it will have committed a material breach of US obligations. Article 25 of the UN Charter states that “The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter”. Even if congress abrogates a final agreement, this will not relieve the United States of its international obligations. I draw your attention to the reasoning of the District of Columbia Court of Appeals in Diggs v. Schultz (1972).

“We think that there can no blinking the purpose and effect of the Byrd Amendment. It was to detach this country from the U.N. boycott of Southern Rhodesia in blatant disregard of our treaty undertakings.”

Article 27 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties holds that “a party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty.” This may not seem applicable to a congressional abrogation of a potential P5+1 deal because the aforementioned Vienna Convention has not been ratified by the U.S, However, insofar as Article 27 reflects a codification of customary law, and arguably, a peremptory norm, the U.S. would not escape the onus of violation. Pacta sunt servanda - treaties must be honored - is an undeniable and unambiguous example of international customary law. Domestic noncompliance with a UNSCR would be a clear and blatant material breach of American obligations.

Since Bis thinks my simple questions are beneath him, any one else care to comment on my simple line of reasoning on the previous page?

Iran give money to terrorists (no one is denying this), ergo Iran is a terrorist state. Terrorists are our enemy, ergo Iran is our enemy. Obama is negotiating with Iran and offering reduced sanctions, which will aid and comfort them. The definition of treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy, ergo Obama is committing treason.

What the fuck am I missing here?

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Maybe I missed it but I don’t believe it’s come up here yet about the unconstitutional end-run once again Obama is trying to pull off by labeling this as an agreement and not a treaty (subject to Senate approval).

Even liberal Chuck Schumer (likely the next Democrat Senate Majority leader) is squawking.[/quote]

The Constitution does not define the term treaty, but has two relevant provisions dealing with treaty practice. Under Article II, section 2.2, the president has the power with “the advice and consent” of two-thirds of the Senate to make treaties. The president ratifies and proclaims treaties, not the Senate. Article VI, section 2, declares that “all Treaties made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the Supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby.” In addition to “treaties”, the president has the power to make other international agreements (1) on the basis of congressional authorization, (2) on the basis of his own foreign relations power, or (3) on the basis of authority contained in an earlier treaty made pursuant to Article II.

If the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action results in a final agreement, it will not be a bilateral agreement between Iran and the US, but rather one that will be concluded with the participation of five other countries, including all permanent members of the Security Council, and will also be endorsed by a Security Council resolution. Congress has no authority in regard to the dealings of the UNSC, and has no power to veto any resolutions that body may conclude. Executive agreements do not require the Senate’s final approval. They are binding international obligations made solely by the executive branch. According to international law, Congress may not modify the terms of the agreement at any time as they claim, and if Congress adopts any measure to impede its implementation, it will have committed a material breach of US obligations. Article 25 of the UN Charter states that “The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter”. Even if congress abrogates a final agreement, this will not relieve the United States of its international obligations. I draw your attention to the reasoning of the District of Columbia Court of Appeals in Diggs v. Schultz (1972).

“We think that there can no blinking the purpose and effect of the Byrd Amendment. It was to detach this country from the U.N. boycott of Southern Rhodesia in blatant disregard of our treaty undertakings.”

Article 27 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties holds that “a party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty.” This may not seem applicable to a congressional abrogation of a potential P5+1 deal because the aforementioned Vienna Convention has not been ratified by the U.S, However, insofar as Article 27 reflects a codification of customary law, and arguably, a peremptory norm, the U.S. would not escape the onus of violation. Pacta sunt servanda - treaties must be honored - is an undeniable and unambiguous example of international customary law. Domestic noncompliance with a UNSCR would be a clear and blatant material breach of American obligations.
[/quote]

What will the UN do if we decide to pull out of that treaty once a Republican is elected to the Executive branch? Write us a strongly worded letter? LOL

Why would anyone respect the UN? The UN is a bunch of bullshit. They are a GELDED institution. We are the only member of the UN who actually wants to take ACTION against any of the “wrong” in world, and all they do is veto us. Because Russia and China are permanent members… Hmmm, who’s bright idea was that? I mean, let’s take an organization designed to promote “world peace” and “human rights” and THEN put the two largest communist regimes, responsible for some of the largest human rights violations in modern times, ON THE COUNCIL. BRILLIANT!

Why do we even bother with the UN? We contribute BILLIONS to that limp dicked organization, and what does it get us? They NEVER back us up. They NEVER want to kill any evil world leaders - even when they are killing their own people. I mean seriously, what fucking purpose do they serve? I can write some strongly worded letters, perhaps I should start an international organization…