Force Against Iran

[quote]rainjack wrote:
It’s just like Bush said. If you are not against terrorism and everythng it stands for, then are no better than the terrorists themselves. That is a paraphrase, but you get the idea. [/quote]

yeah and if you cant see the flawed logic in that theres something wrong… . theres a fucking huge difference from “not giving a shit about terrorism” and actually going out and blowing people away. …

terrorism is a boogey man plain and simple… . its not much worse today than it was 10-20-30 years ago… . its easy to worry about something that doesnt actually matter… . it clouds your mind and keeps your eyes off the big picture… . would you wage a war against vechiles around your country since road deaths in the us alone are a staggering 42,000 a year? shit thats a good 40,000 more than terrorists claimed the world around last year… . you know what? FALLING DOWN costs the US more lives each year than 3 combined 9/11’s but you dont hear that shit on the news. …

its easier for the government to keep everyone in line with some little ghost storys about “some foreign guys that might blow you up when you least expect it” but its only masking much bigger and more important issues such as the energy future of the US and much of the western world. …

Oh, let me guess, this is where you say something like I didn’t CALL YOU an apologist or an appeaser.

Maybe you like to hide behind extremely simple platitudes, like the one you quoted from Bush. It must be nice to live in such a simple world where you never actually have to think or care about real or complex issues.

Congratulations.

However, until you are man enough to look at, think about and discuss issues seriously, maybe you shouldn’t go around sticking nasty labels on people.

Especially when they don’t fit.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I could give a shit if I’ve convinced you, or any other apologist/appeaser on here. So you can stop trying to force me into a corner. I’m not going.

Oh, let me guess, this is where you say something like I didn’t CALL YOU an apologist or an appeaser.

Maybe you like to hide behind extremely simple platitudes, like the one you quoted from Bush. It must be nice to live in such a simple world where you never actually have to think or care about real or complex issues.

Congratulations.

However, until you are man enough to look at, think about and discuss issues seriously, maybe you shouldn’t go around sticking nasty labels on people.

Especially when they don’t fit.[/quote]

Guess all you want, vroom. Like i said - I could give a shit.

Please make another post about how I am not a man. See if I care.

And finally - It will be a cold day in hell when I let someone such as you set the framework of an argument. My opinions are not subject to being proven. I know what I think about you - and there is nothing I need to do about it.

Are you “man enough” to understand that?

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s just like Bush said. If you are not against terrorism and everythng it stands for, then are no better than the terrorists themselves. That is a paraphrase, but you get the idea.

yeah and if you cant see the flawed logic in that theres something wrong… . theres a fucking huge difference from “not giving a shit about terrorism” and actually going out and blowing people away. …

terrorism is a boogey man plain and simple… . its not much worse today than it was 10-20-30 years ago… . its easy to worry about something that doesnt actually matter… . it clouds your mind and keeps your eyes off the big picture… . would you wage a war against vechiles around your country since road deaths in the us alone are a staggering 42,000 a year? shit thats a good 40,000 more than terrorists claimed the world around last year… . you know what? FALLING DOWN costs the US more lives each year than 3 combined 9/11’s but you dont hear that shit on the news. …

its easier for the government to keep everyone in line with some little ghost storys about “some foreign guys that might blow you up when you least expect it” but its only masking much bigger and more important issues such as the energy future of the US and much of the western world. …

[/quote]

Whatever you say. What was I thinking? Supporting the President is for pussies, right?

[quote]

Whatever you say. What was I thinking? Supporting the President is for pussies, right? [/quote]

I got it, I got it! The correct answer is: That depends on the president.

Did I win anything?

[quote]orion wrote:

Whatever you say. What was I thinking? Supporting the President is for pussies, right?

I got it, I got it! The correct answer is: That depends on the president.

Did I win anything?

[/quote]

LOL! At least someome on your side has a sense of humor.

[quote]Guess all you want, vroom. Like i said - I could give a shit.

Please make another post about how I am not a man. See if I care.

And finally - It will be a cold day in hell when I let someone such as you set the framework of an argument. My opinions are not subject to being proven. I know what I think about you - and there is nothing I need to do about it.

Are you “man enough” to understand that? [/quote]

Rainjack,

You can add all the mass to your body that you want, but with an attitude like the above, you will always be a small man.

You ask other people to prove things all the time. It’s fair to ask you to prove your verbal spewage. It has nothing to do with “defining the framework” for an arugment or any such bullshit.

Oh well, you are turning into more and more of a baiting troll, trying to turn conversations to crap all the time.

Your “opinion” has nothing to do with the meaning of the words you use. You can’t just say it is your “opinion” and expect it to be so when the lables you slap on people have specific meanings.

Well, I guess actually you can and have. I’m afraid it just makes you look somewhat confused or silly though.

Been nice chatting with you Rainjack…

I apologized for that comment. Not that it would nmean anything to you.

Were I only half as perfect as the all knowing, all thinking vroom.

Rainjack, in my haste to continue in the spirit of “game on”, I simply missed the apology…

My bad.

terrorism is definitely not a new trend, nor is it on the increase. Terrorist attacks have not skyrocketed; there is no more now an eminent threat than there was 15 years ago. It is funny, but where was the war on terror when the IRA was bombing the shit out of london? At least with suicide bombers, they take themselves out of the picture. A car bomber lives to strike again.

Whether it is a good idea or not to go into iran (in principle), stretching already thin resources is a recipe for disaster which in the end might leave us more vulnerable than had we left them alone.

shortround:

Why aren’t you sitting at the Crawford Ranch protesting if you really believe what you say? Why aren’t you acting as a human shield?

Pussy.

[quote]Cream wrote:
shortround:

Why aren’t you sitting at the Crawford Ranch protesting if you really believe what you say? Why aren’t you acting as a human shield?

Pussy.[/quote]

Jerffy, why do you persist in playing your dual role game? That in my opinion is the height of being a pussy.

e-hater,

I noticed you wrote my name.

Are we back on?

Cream,

Great post. It must be nice to be the e-hater who runs his mouth without doing a damn thing about his “convictions.”

As you know, I’m not especially fond of his Anti-Police stance. He admits he doesn’t have any first hand knowledge (besides these alleged “friends” of his) of policework.

I hope the e-hater will be watching the new 9/11 show August 21-22.

I have a feeling that my brothers on the Force will be represented. I’d bet that they will also be doing things that e-hater would never have done.

In summary, it’s a small man who spouts off about things he knows nothing about, won’t go down to the local station to air his views man to man, and trys to deflect criticism from a fellow veteran (Cream) by charging that he is me.

JeffR

Jerffy,

You are my hero. You have spent how long, years now, on the finest bodybuilding and fitness site on the planet, and yet all you have done is managed to spew your Internet tough guy persona in the political forums.

Keep up the good work tough guy. You make police everywhere cringe, I mean proud, way to go!

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

Jerffy, why do you persist in playing your dual role game? That in my opinion is the height of being a pussy. [/quote]

Way to dodge the question, runt. There are zero similarities in Jeff and my posting styles, although I know that’s probably way beyond your capabilites. Trust me, if you keep at this reading english thing, eventually there will come a time when you don’t have to spend an hour just figuring out literal meanings. Then you can move to a whole wonderful new realm – reading comprehension!

I always caution conservatives that I know that try to lionize every military member. While there are a lot of quality people in the military, there are also a lot of little guys like shortround who basically got to the point in their lives where it was either going to prison or at least trying to make something of themselves in the military, and they choose the service.

While many of these people are changed in a positive way by their experience, you also get the guys like shortround here. These are the guys that regard personal discipline as a burden, who eschew the concepts that make the military great, who sneer at patriotic displays, and who leave the military with nothing other than the training it takes to run the gear. They go right back to teetering on the edge of total collapse – professionally, personally, spiritually.

These are also the guys that hover in the back of the warzone, stealing the laundry and supplies from the guys doing the work at the front. Then they get back, get a few beers in them, and start talking about how they were Navy SEALS and how they have a notch in their belt for every man they killed and all sorts of other bullshit. Or if they tell the truth, they say shit like: “Oh, I coulda been a ranger, but I ‘aptituded’ out.” As if every single guy in the Rangers wasn’t smarter than some snot-nosed E-1 who needed an officer to hold his hand every time he had to leave the office in Germany to take a leak.

Oddly, I don’t notice guys like RangerTab coming on and saying – “Well, if you don’t support the war, you shouldn’t be allowed to vote, since you are not even responsible enough to defend yourself.” Only the guys in the rear with the gear with something to prove about their toughness talk like that.

Small, weak, ignorant, self-righteous… I hope you marry well, but I pity whatever guy you marry.

jerff, cream, totally pitiful!!! You can’t cheer enough under one personality so, you create another. I have heard of the good cop bad cop routine, but this is ridiculous not to mention sick. Your MO is such like an elementary, hyper, developmentally disabled, child.

Wait, let me guess, know the “you were on steroids smirk smirk” and “I am so big and strong” rhetoric will start. You are a good representative of the neocon movement you are a coward and a liar. I don’t believe for one nano second you are a cop. If you have to create dual personalities on the internet everything you say is suspect. And, that is taking in mind zebs cryptic warning of “you don’t have any idea who jerffy is” enigmatic statement.

You hardcore non action war hawks show your true colors more by the day.

[quote]Cream wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:

Jerffy, why do you persist in playing your dual role game? That in my opinion is the height of being a pussy.

Way to dodge the question, runt. There are zero similarities in Jeff and my posting styles, although I know that’s probably way beyond your capabilites. Trust me, if you keep at this reading english thing, eventually there will come a time when you don’t have to spend an hour just figuring out literal meanings. Then you can move to a whole wonderful new realm – reading comprehension!

I always caution conservatives that I know that try to lionize every military member. While there are a lot of quality people in the military, there are also a lot of little guys like shortround who basically got to the point in their lives where it was either going to prison or at least trying to make something of themselves in the military, and they choose the service.

While many of these people are changed in a positive way by their experience, you also get the guys like shortround here. These are the guys that regard personal discipline as a burden, who eschew the concepts that make the military great, who sneer at patriotic displays, and who leave the military with nothing other than the training it takes to run the gear. They go right back to teetering on the edge of total collapse – professionally, personally, spiritually.

These are also the guys that hover in the back of the warzone, stealing the laundry and supplies from the guys doing the work at the front. Then they get back, get a few beers in them, and start talking about how they were Navy SEALS and how they have a notch in their belt for every man they killed and all sorts of other bullshit. Or if they tell the truth, they say shit like: “Oh, I coulda been a ranger, but I ‘aptituded’ out.” As if every single guy in the Rangers wasn’t smarter than some snot-nosed E-1 who needed an officer to hold his hand every time he had to leave the office in Germany to take a leak.

Oddly, I don’t notice guys like RangerTab coming on and saying – “Well, if you don’t support the war, you shouldn’t be allowed to vote, since you are not even responsible enough to defend yourself.” Only the guys in the rear with the gear with something to prove about their toughness talk like that.

Small, weak, ignorant, self-righteous… I hope you marry well, but I pity whatever guy you marry.
[/quote]

jerff, resorting to homosexual innuendo… Again, your true colors and latent impulses show though more clearly with every post you make. YOU ARE A COWARD, A LIAR, AN IMPOSTER!!!

If Jerffy and Cream aren’t the same person, I’m sure they have a gay union of some type…

Edit: Not that there is anything wrong with that!

[quote]vroom wrote:
If Jerffy and Cream aren’t the same person, I’m sure they have a gay union of some type…[/quote]

No offense, but the same could be said for a couple of you butt buddies on the other side as well.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
That said, we didn’t go over there to get our hands on their oil, to control their oil, or any of that other crap that gets floated (not saying you floated it).
[/quote]
That’s right. We invaded Iraq not to take or control the oil, but just to free it up. It was sitting in the ground - the second largest proven reserves in the world - with Saddam on top of it and the sanctions on top of that. It couldn’t do anyone any good down there. It was vital that this oil find its way to market. If a bunch of American oil firms got first shot on a bunch of leases, so much the better. If the Saudis got second-sourced a bit, so much the better.

Petroleum price spikes are very bad for western-style economies. Such spikes come about because of interruptions in supply in one part of the world or another (e.g. Venezuela a little while back). About a year after one of these price spikes the blowback hits the automobile and aircraft industries, and all their suppliers in turn shortly after that. In the meantime the increased price of fuel works sort of like an extra tax on everything, but especially food. If your economy is already in a weakened state, an oil price spike is a real recovery killer.

At the current time, there is very little reserve petroleum production capacity to be thrown into any gap and make up for interruptions in production here or there around the world. In fact, we are right now in the middle of an oil price spike, although it may not have a distinct finishing downturn like previous spikes because it is superimposed on top of a continuing acceleration in global demand for oil.

Saddam, with a known track record for seeking WMDs, had a very large conventional army, even if it did get its ass kicked in ‘91 by Stormin’ Norman. It was enough to make the neighbors nervous. Speaking of interruptions in petroleum production, Saddam acted pretty crazed, so another Kuwait or worse could have been the result of not keeping the sanctions screwed down tight. But the sanctions were slipping because everybody, especially some Europeans, wanted to get rights to produce Iraqi oil. So there was a lot of talk about “smart sanctions”, which you can just tell from the name probably wouldn’t have worked too well. So it’s not exactly like the situation was long term stable.

This is how I see the wind-up to the war. Yes, it is about oil. That merely means it is about our very way of life itself. Yes, we’re a bunch of petroleum junkies. The way you can tell is by how much denial there is about it! Still, a year ago it would not have been possible to have this conversation here.

The interests are clear enough. After all, in the end the interests are supposed to map onto your interests, right? And it’s drop dead clear, isn’t it: you and I need cheap, abundant oil. Not to mention just at the moment the US economy needs a little stimulating (with real spending, unlike the tax cuts).

It’s only because of politics in this country that everything gets murky. Even if on the numbers the invasion was not such a bad trade-off, still you can’t tell a bunch of denial-sunken oil addicts you’re sending their troops over there to fight for cheaper oil (read: prosperity and avoiding global depression). Not if you or your mates ever want to get reelected. Hence the war is about everything and anything but oil.

So they tell horror stories about WMDs and terror tie-ins, and then fairy tales about spreading democracy. If Gore had won the 2000 election he would have had to do pretty much the same things, and tell similar lies to get the job done. Clinton did what he could to hasten Saddam’s demise short of sending the troops in. But all that prelude including the sanctions failed to do the job so it was time to get a larger hammer. We all do what we have to in order to survive.

It’s hilarious to me to watch the ditto-heads strut up and down mouthing platitudes about bringing democracy to the Middle East. If that had been our objective - after many decades of doing precisely the opposite - there were plenty better ways to do it than invading Iraq. After strutting they all climb back into their SUVs and head home.

I’m a realist, so I reserve my blaming not for the fact the Bushies started the war, but how badly they planned and executed the follow up. Disbanding the Iraqi army was such a cock-up, especially combined with low-balling the troop commitment. The one or the other might have flown, but both at the same time were a fatal mistake. The current situation and massive loss of life need not have happened.

The other thing I’m blaming them for is not leading the country toward energy conservation. That omission was very much against the national interest. Try squaring the energy bill giveaway extravaganza with US interests.

Point is, even a deeper understanding of US interests is not necessarily going to lead you toward a better understanding of the current administration’s policy choices.

As for Iran, let it go. Just redefine the triggers for mutual assured destruction: any suitcase bomb goes off anywhere and the mullahs and musharraf and dear leader all get the nuclear treatment on the same glorious day. We’ve lived with this scenario before.