endgamer711, thank you for a very accurate and intelligent post. I think that is a non partisan non biased look at the situation and more importantly a truthful one.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Whatever you say. What was I thinking? Supporting the President is for pussies, right? [/quote]from the pen of one of your own:
“The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”
“Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star”, 149
May 7, 1918
but I see someone else allready addressed your question in a much more funny, and concise way (;
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Whatever you say. What was I thinking? Supporting the President is for pussies, right? from the pen of one of your own:
“The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”
“Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star”, 149
May 7, 1918
but I see someone else allready addressed your question in a much more funny, and concise way (; [/quote]
No where in your quote does it say that supporting the Presient is for pussies. And the “truth”, in this situation is completely subjective, no?
Who is the arbitor of the subjective truth? The left wing? I’m sorry, but it is not the left. They can’t even win elections, much less win in the arena of ideas. I’m not about to pretend that I know what the truth is. But I trust and believe in the President. You are entitled to your own opinions, but they are no closer to the the truth than my trust of the President.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
No where in your quote does it say that supporting the Presient is for pussies. And the “truth”, in this situation is completely subjective, no?
Who is the arbitor of the subjective truth? The left wing? I’m sorry, but it is not the left. They can’t even win elections, much less win in the arena of ideas. I’m not about to pretend that I know what the truth is. But I trust and believe in the President. You are entitled to your own opinions, but they are no closer to the the truth than my trust of the President. [/quote]what you think of as truth may be a lie and it may never be uncovered… . history can be written on lies and no ones the wiser so you have a point there. …
saying something as profoundly stupid as “They can’t even win elections” as your reasoning is pathetic and you may as well have said “They can’t even rig elections” despite whether you think they did or not… . either way I dont care because John Kerry was not a serious contender and the american 2 party system is a mockery of a real free democratic system. …
Hmm, not sure insulting the American way is going to win you any debating points. Maybe you should have gone for something profound, which never works for me…
Any man who lets another man do his thinking for him is a fool.
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
saying something as profoundly stupid as “They can’t even win elections” as your reasoning is pathetic and you may as well have said “They can’t even rig elections” despite whether you think they did or not… . either way I dont care because John Kerry was not a serious contender and the american 2 party system is a mockery of a real free democratic system. …
[/quote]
I’ll have to take exception to your “profoundly stupid” remark. What you seem to be horribly ignorant about is the fact that the left has been steadily losing elections since 1994. I’m not talking about the Presidential races. I’m talking about the Senate and the House of Reps, as well as state and local races. It’s a fact. Look it up.
Since the country is taking a decided right turn on the political map, it would be incredibly stupid to entrust the left with being the arbitors of the truth that I mentioned in my earlier post. The american people are not listening to what they have to say.
Maybe you should read up on your poly-sci before you try and tell me how “profoundly stupid” I am.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’ll have to take exception to your “profoundly stupid” remark. What you seem to be horribly ignorant about is the fact that the left has been steadily losing elections since 1994. I’m not talking about the Presidential races. I’m talking about the Senate and the House of Reps, as well as state and local races. It’s a fact. Look it up.
Since the country is taking a decided right turn on the political map, it would be incredibly stupid to entrust the left with being the arbitors of the truth that I mentioned in my earlier post. The american people are not listening to what they have to say.
Maybe you should read up on your poly-sci before you try and tell me how “profoundly stupid” I am. [/quote]
All anyone has to do to see how ineffective that the democrats have been at winning elections is simply look at Presidential history.
Bill Clinton was the only democrat to win a second term since FDR! In that same 60 year time frame there have been four republican Presidents to win a second term!
As the democratic party drifts further to the left more American people will continue to vote republican.
Iran is and has been a much greater threat to the U.S. and world at large than Iraq. If Iraq, why not Iran? Or why not Iran instead of Iraq? Too late now-we are involved and I think we need to stay involved and fulfill our committment to resolve things as much as we possibly can. But this is something we should’ve thought of a long time ago. Some people did.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Iran is and has been a much greater threat to the U.S. and world at large than Iraq. If Iraq, why not Iran? Or why not Iran instead of Iraq? Too late now-we are involved and I think we need to stay involved and fulfill our committment to resolve things as much as we possibly can. But this is something we should’ve thought of a long time ago. Some people did.[/quote]
I think that Iraq, Iran, and North Korea were all mentioned as being the Axis of Evil in one of Bush’s SOTU addresses.
I will guarantee you that no matter which country we had decided to ‘deal with’ first, that there would be detractors by the droves telling the President he picked the wrong country.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Great argument skills – you can’t handle the verbal ass-raping you just got, so you go to your tired fall back of calling me “jerffy”.
Maybe I should put this in smaller words so you can understand it: You are a pussy, Shortround. While really brave people are camping outside of Bush’s ranch in Crawford Texas, you are typing away on your computer from the safety of your nice snug apartment.
I dominated you, and you haven’t got shit to say.
Funny how Cream has the same Internet tough guy persona as Jerffy… kinda reminds me of a movie. You know, “Dumb and Dumber”.
[quote]Cream wrote:
Great argument skills – you can’t handle the verbal ass-raping you just got, so you go to your tired fall back of calling me “jerffy”.
Maybe I should put this in smaller words so you can understand it: You are a pussy, Shortround. While really brave people are camping outside of Bush’s ranch in Crawford Texas, you are typing away on your computer from the safety of your nice snug apartment.
I dominated you, and you haven’t got shit to say.[/quote]
“I dominated you”. Revealing how your latent impulses and insecurities keep coming thru. You are losing it jerff. Take a deep breath go bow at your Bush altar and get a grip. Me camped on a dirt road… you camped out in Baghdad… who is the real pussy with the lack of support?
e-hater wrote:
““I dominated you”. Revealing how your latent impulses and insecurities keep coming thru. You are losing it jerff. Take a deep breath go bow at your Bush altar and get a grip. Me camped on a dirt road… you camped out in Baghdad… who is the real pussy with the lack of support?”
Ok, e-hater/lumpy/a d/marmadogg/anyone from Boston,
I guess multiple names are too much for your small mind. To make it easier for your 1 watt brain, from now on: Everyone who votes correctly will be called: Conservative. The left-over misfits will be called liberals.
Now that I think about it, Conservative was right, after all of your nastiness about people who support the war, why aren’t you at Crawford?
Why aren’t you throwing yourself in front of an Army truck to stop them from boarding a transport to Iraq?
Why aren’t you on television protesting the war?
In short, where are you?
You’ve got a lot of nerve ripping on people from behind your computer screen when you can’t risk going to Texas and interrupting your cushy little life.
Conservative.
jerff/cream, you truly are a sick bastard. Creating multiple identities on a weightlifting and fitness forum where you have never posted one fitness oriented post shows with crystalline clarity the twisted nature of your mind. You say you are a shepherd… do you truly believe you are one. Most people put some stats in their profiles, yours is revealingly empty. Are you that bitch Anne Coulter? You sure act like her!
[quote]rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Iran is and has been a much greater threat to the U.S. and world at large than Iraq. If Iraq, why not Iran? Or why not Iran instead of Iraq? Too late now-we are involved and I think we need to stay involved and fulfill our committment to resolve things as much as we possibly can. But this is something we should’ve thought of a long time ago. Some people did.
I think that Iraq, Iran, and North Korea were all mentioned as being the Axis of Evil in one of Bush’s SOTU addresses.
I will guarantee you that no matter which country we had decided to ‘deal with’ first, that there would be detractors by the droves telling the President he picked the wrong country.
Hindsight is 20/20. [/quote]
True. But it’s not just hindsight. There were people who were convinced Iran was the true threat and concern before we went to Iraq. I think it’s a good thing that Saddam’s out of power. But I still question whether it was the right thing to move into Iraq and am unsure whether the ultimate outcome will be positive.
I also thing a lot of things were mishandled. But I agree that what’s done is done. The important thing now is picking up the pieces and trying to ensure that Iraq will be now be a better place for Iraquis and the world at large.
liberal (-)-(e-hater) wrote:
“jerff/cream, you truly are a sick bastard. Creating multiple identities on a weightlifting and fitness forum where you have never posted one fitness oriented post shows with crystalline clarity the twisted nature of your mind. You say you are a shepherd… do you truly believe you are one. Most people put some stats in their profiles, yours is revealingly empty. Are you that bitch Anne Coulter? You sure act like her!”
Why are you posting the names “JeffR/Cream/Ann Coulter?”
We are known simply as the CONSERVATIVE.
We have figured out that your mind cannot handle disparate concepts.
Remove the clutter from your Atari 800 mind. It can’t handle the data.
Yes, liberal (-), we are all the same person.
I must add that the CONSERVATIVE has indeed posted things on other parts of the website.
We are all things.
Now that you are the liberal (-), I have to say that we did see you outside of the Ranch. You looked small, weak, smelly, and devoid of ideas. You looked exactly like we expected you to look.
CONSERVATIVE
[quote]JeffR wrote:
liberal (-)-(e-hater) wrote:
“jerff/cream, you truly are a sick bastard. Creating multiple identities on a weightlifting and fitness forum where you have never posted one fitness oriented post shows with crystalline clarity the twisted nature of your mind. You say you are a shepherd… do you truly believe you are one. Most people put some stats in their profiles, yours is revealingly empty. Are you that bitch Anne Coulter? You sure act like her!”
Why are you posting the names “JeffR/Cream/Ann Coulter?”
We are known simply as the CONSERVATIVE.
We have figured out that your mind cannot handle disparate concepts.
Remove the clutter from your Atari 800 mind. It can’t handle the data.
Yes, liberal (-), we are all the same person.
I must add that the CONSERVATIVE has indeed posted things on other parts of the website.
We are all things.
Now that you are the liberal (-), I have to say that we did see you outside of the Ranch. You looked small, weak, smelly, and devoid of ideas. You looked exactly like we expected you to look.
CONSERVATIVE
[/quote]
WOW, you truly are your own worst enemy. Heavy doses of thorazine are what you need Ann. Psss, your losing it, get help.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
WMD wrote:
doogie wrote:
Can one of you peacenik douchebags explain what the U.S. could do, short of everyone converting to Islam, to make the terrorists happy?
Send you and RJ to Iraq?
Yes, indeed, WMD you have hit the nail on the head. I would rather be a peacenik who claimed it then a warnik who talked the talk, but let others walk the walk. Oh, whats that doogie? You would rather stay and teach the schoolchildren… go home at night to your own children?
Those damn peaceniks, I hate those cowardly bastards!
I did my eight years in the reserves and did everything that was asked of me. Now I’ve moved on. Should I be embarrassed about that?
Does this stupid response from ya’ll mean you have no ideas on what would make the terrorists stop hating us?
[/quote]
Well, doogie my boy, I spent time in the first Gulf War commanding a C&J platoon. What did you do? Remain stateside pushing paper as part of the chairborne? If the only thing you can come up with is more wars on more fronts without enough troops and materiel for the one we’re already engaged in, you are a moron. That epithet applies to you, personally, and anyone you voted into office who is now running this war in an incompetent fashion and who seeks to expand the so-called War on Terror to other countries.
It also goes for anyone who favors a nuclear response. Only a complete idiot would use a nuke thinking there would be no consequences for us. There are several other responses that would make much more sense, you know like pursuing diplomacy coupled with a COVERT action of some sort. That way we don’t have to kill every man, woman and child in the region and pollute the whole freakin’ planet in the process.
WMD
[quote]ZEB wrote:
WMD wrote:
Well, ZEB does it all the time. Why isn’t anyone else allowed to?
No actually I don’t Ma’m. :)[/quote]
Actually, you do. The only evidence you ever post is pulled out of your own butt or off of right wing websites. YOu have never in anything I’ve seen you post provide a neutral, empirical peer reviewed source of evidence. And you always expect us to just take your word without any application of critical thought. 
[quote]doogie wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
WMD wrote:
doogie wrote:
Can one of you peacenik douchebags explain what the U.S. could do, short of everyone converting to Islam, to make the terrorists happy?
Send you and RJ to Iraq?
Yes, indeed, WMD you have hit the nail on the head. I would rather be a peacenik who claimed it then a warnik who talked the talk, but let others walk the walk. Oh, whats that doogie? You would rather stay and teach the schoolchildren… go home at night to your own children?
Those damn peaceniks, I hate those cowardly bastards!
Hey WMD and Elkhntr,
Have you douchebags been camping out in Crawford, protesting the war? Have you sent Moveon.org 50% of your net income?
If you think this war is wrong, that our soldiers are dying needlessly, and that we are just in it for the oil, what are you doing to stop it, other than hanging out on the internet?
You see I think the war is right, and it is happening. So pretty much all I have to do in order not to be a hypocrite is pay my taxes and vote Republican. I do a little more than that. I have bought two A/C units for the troops, I donated my last two income tax returns to military charities, and everytime there is a supply drive for the troops I drag my kids down to Wal-Mart to spend $50 or so for stuff the troops need.
You on the other hand think the war is morally wrong. That means you are obligated to try and stop it. So what are you doing? I’ll bet you paid your income taxes the last two years, hypocrites. I’ll bet you still drive an automobile instead of peddling everywhere you go. I’ll bet you still waste electricity while jerking off to Vroom’s picture on the computer.
[/quote]
Well, I lack the proper equipment for jerking off to anybody’s picture. But thanks for raising the tone of the debate. ZEB likes it when the tone remains high.
Not that you’re prone to generalizing or anything, but my opposition to the war is on other grounds besides morality. Like it was stupid, wasteful and promulgated on false information. A nation as powerful as we are can come up with better ways of doing things.
Just so we’re clear, where did you spend your time in the service? I spent part of mine in Iraq the first time around, so I’m not exactly a tree-hugging hippie freak, not that there’s anything wrong with that. It takes all kinds, that’s sort of the basis of our country, you know individual liberties and all that. Maybe read the Constitution, that thing you vowed to protect with your life.
And the douchebag comment is just brilliant.
WMD