I’ve got 2 words for you all - Eric Cressey.
DJ
[quote]Kruiser wrote:
I disagree with this attitude completely. There are A LOT of coaches and trainers out there that could never hope to approach the level of their genetically gifted, younger, or chemically enhanced trainees. Sure, it’s great if they can also “walk the walk”, but knowledge and successful training experience count for more in my book. I would learn just as much from someone half my size who could snatch twice their bodyweight as I could from someone my size even though the actual weight is greater. What’s the difference as long as they’re teaching good form with solid methodologies and helping me progress?
As far as the “Just EAT MORE” crowd goes, it’s usually good advice if they’re also stressing healthy food choices. I agree it’s often a silly, flippant response written without any real thought behind it. But again, just because you don’t have a body like Ronnie Coleman doesn’t mean your incapable of teaching someone else how to achieve it.
Knowledge is the key.[/quote]
These people exist, but are in the infinitesimally small minority. Trainers can earn credibility through the results of their clients, but those individuals will never be encountered in any meaningful way by just about anyone who posts in a thread like this. The big guys are your best bet.
[quote]djreef wrote:
I’ve got 2 words for you all - Eric Cressey.
DJ[/quote]
What does that mean?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You wrote, “doesn’t mean that I don’t have the knowledge to help someone put on muscle.”. Wouldn’t someone weighing 250+lbs at average height already know themselves how to put on muscle?[/quote]
No, not necessarily. People can achieve something, especially a physique, without good explicit knowledge of how to achieve it. Your 250-pound guy may have very different genetics and metabolism from you, so what worked for him may not work for you.
Conversely, it is quite possible to learn how to achieve a certain physique through reading research literature and others’ experiences and through coaching others without doing it yourself. Doing it yourself can give you more conviction and passion, and certainly can inspire others, but it’s not necessary for just knowing how.
This reminds me of research that I did several years ago, building on research done by the motor researcher Bernstein many years ago. We found that people who had achieved a high level of motor skill, in this case playing the piano, had in fact INCORRECT knowledge of how they achieved their skill. They were convinced that they were using their arms a certain way, but measurements proved they did not. (Bernstein used high-speed photography; I used a 4D Optotrak camera system with LED emitters.)
The thing was that not only did the pianists have these strong intuitive opinions about their technique, but they also developed teaching methodologies and technical drills around their opinions. These have dominated piano pedagogy for decades.
Based on what I found from the data, I instructed novice pianists differently, and they progressed more rapidly. So my instruction was better than that of pianists far more skilled than I. They had more skill in piano playing, but I had better information about HOW to get where they are.
And it’s not just pianists. Some researchers in Germany have also shown that there are much more effective instructions than the kind traditionally used to teach people golf, skiing, and tennis skills.
Bottom line, if it’s INFORMATION you need, it’s either right or wrong; the characteristics of the deliverer don’t matter. If it’s INSPIRATION you’re looking for, then of course you want to see someone who’s successfully achieved what you want to achieve. Humans are very emotional, so a lot of times, inspiration trumps information in people’s minds.
[quote]andersons wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You wrote, “doesn’t mean that I don’t have the knowledge to help someone put on muscle.”. Wouldn’t someone weighing 250+lbs at average height already know themselves how to put on muscle?
No, not necessarily. People can achieve something, especially a physique, without good explicit knowledge of how to achieve it. Your 250-pound guy may have very different genetics and metabolism from you, so what worked for him may not work for you.
Conversely, it is quite possible to learn how to achieve a certain physique through reading research literature and others’ experiences and through coaching others without doing it yourself. Doing it yourself can give you more conviction and passion, and certainly can inspire others, but it’s not necessary for just knowing how.
This reminds me of research that I did several years ago, building on research done by the motor researcher Bernstein many years ago. We found that people who had achieved a high level of motor skill, in this case playing the piano, had in fact INCORRECT knowledge of how they achieved their skill. They were convinced that they were using their arms a certain way, but measurements proved they did not. (Bernstein used high-speed photography; I used a 4D Optotrak camera system with LED emitters.)
The thing was that not only did the pianists have these strong intuitive opinions about their technique, but they also developed teaching methodologies and technical drills around their opinions. These have dominated piano pedagogy for decades.
Based on what I found from the data, I instructed novice pianists differently, and they progressed more rapidly. So my instruction was better than that of pianists far more skilled than I. They had more skill in piano playing, but I had better information about HOW to get where they are.
And it’s not just pianists. Some researchers in Germany have also shown that there are much more effective instructions than the kind traditionally used to teach people golf, skiing, and tennis skills.
Bottom line, if it’s INFORMATION you need, it’s either right or wrong; the characteristics of the deliverer don’t matter. If it’s INSPIRATION you’re looking for, then of course you want to see someone who’s successfully achieved what you want to achieve. Humans are very emotional, so a lot of times, inspiration trumps information in people’s minds. [/quote]
There’s a world of difference between researching how to play the piano, and sitting your ass on the bench and playing. People have to be taught.
You must be taught by someone that has done what it is you are wanting to learn.
This is not a science. It is not an art. It is getting off your ass and doing. No research paper is going help you lose weight. No scientist is going to put LBM on you.
IS this yet another verse to the same song?
Jesus.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
djreef wrote:
I’ve got 2 words for you all - Eric Cressey.
DJ
What does that mean?[/quote]
an example of someone who knows how to train champions, and walks the walk at 170lbs soaking wet. You might want to check out some of his vids posted on this site.
DJ
[quote]djreef wrote:
malonetd wrote:
djreef wrote:
I’ve got 2 words for you all - Eric Cressey.
DJ
What does that mean?
an example of someone who knows how to train champions, and walks the walk at 170lbs soaking wet. You might want to check out some of his vids posted on this site.
DJ [/quote]
I’m familiar with him. I just didn’t understand what “question” you were answering with his name. For the record, I would listen to Cressey for my training. But at the same time, I don’t necessarily expect anyone looking to get huge to go running in his direction.
This argument keeps coming up, what do you trust more experience or science?
For me I’ll take the “dumb” gym rat who’s 250 lbs and moving a small african elephant on his hack squats over the “genius” 150 guy who’s got supertraining memorized and can’t squat 135…
EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK when it comes to making me a large individual.
Pro level bodybuilders(oh geeze here’s that freaking word again) sometimes employ trainers to get them past sticking points in their career, and that usually means they need more size in this day and age. Are they going to 150 lb Timmy the gold’s gym trainer?
They go to Charles Glass a lot for training(former NPC-maybe pro) level bodybuilder, they go to Milos Sarcev(current/former pro) they go to Dante Trudel(never competed but a 280 lb brute) they go to Scott Abel(another land monster in his own right). Other guys might do the prep work for them, but if you want some size they go to guys who A) have some themselves and B) can put it on others.
If the guys who can hire the best of the best go to people that happen to have had success with their own bodies, don’t you think that YOU should think about looking at the hulking mass at the gym as a probable source for information on how to gain size? They are exceptions of course, but let’s not start acting like that’s the rule.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
djreef wrote:
malonetd wrote:
djreef wrote:
I’ve got 2 words for you all - Eric Cressey.
DJ
What does that mean?
an example of someone who knows how to train champions, and walks the walk at 170lbs soaking wet. You might want to check out some of his vids posted on this site.
DJ
I’m familiar with him. I just didn’t understand what “question” you were answering with his name. For the record, I would listen to Cressey for my training. But at the same time, I don’t necessarily expect anyone looking to get huge to go running in his direction.[/quote]
He wasn’t answering anything. It was the same outburst we hear every time this topic comes up. We are discussing how most trainers who are underdeveloped would be ignored by someone who has already built an “extreme” level of muscle mass and we always get at least one person who mentions one trainer who isn’t big but is well known. None of that has anything to do with what we were discussing.
While I am sure I could learn something from, or at least discuss things with, Cressey, I would head towards a Charles Glass or, hell, even CT long before I went to Cressey for advice at this level.
I really don’t understand why that needs to be explained…unless some of the people responding are near beginner status and could basically learn something from anyone.
Great thread. I’ve been working out for ever. Got a lot of shit in my head about exercising, endurance and high intensity training. But I don’t know shit about how to get big. I read some of the diet plans for putting on weight and I’m lost.
I do know one thing, it ain’t only about eating thats for sure. Personally eat between 4-5k calories a day with very large amounts of fiber. I can’t afford to fade out during a workout. Since I eat so much fiber what my body does not need or use I crap out, hence 168lbs.
It would be my belief if you want to get big eat right and work your ass off. All the huge guys I’ve seen working out impress the shit out of me, they move a lot weight. If I wanted to get big they would be the first ones I’d be talking to. Read what they read eat what they eat and if that didn’t work I’d find another big guy and start over again.
Live is all about trial and error, no one thing works for everyone. It takes time to figure it out, then it’s all about given’er shit.
[quote]andersons wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You wrote, “doesn’t mean that I don’t have the knowledge to help someone put on muscle.”. Wouldn’t someone weighing 250+lbs at average height already know themselves how to put on muscle?
No, not necessarily. People can achieve something, especially a physique, without good explicit knowledge of how to achieve it. Your 250-pound guy may have very different genetics and metabolism from you, so what worked for him may not work for you. [/quote]
I’m sorry, but this is retarded. The 250lbs guy does NOT know how to gain muscle mass? As if he woke up one day weighing 250lbs and never had to lift a weight to do it? Who are you kidding? Just because someone has better genetics than you, it does not mean they are clueless.
[quote]
Conversely, it is quite possible to learn how to achieve a certain physique through reading research literature and others’ experiences and through coaching others without doing it yourself. Doing it yourself can give you more conviction and passion, and certainly can inspire others, but it’s not necessary for just knowing how.[/quote]
Interesting. I have a problem. I have been maxing out most of the HS machines I use so what should I do to get my arms to 22"? Please help me…as you must have READ something.
[quote]
This reminds me of research that I did several years ago, building on research done by the motor researcher Bernstein many years ago. We found that people who had achieved a high level of motor skill, in this case playing the piano, had in fact INCORRECT knowledge of how they achieved their skill. They were convinced that they were using their arms a certain way, but measurements proved they did not. (Bernstein used high-speed photography; I used a 4D Optotrak camera system with LED emitters.) [/quote]
Irrelevant. Some people are gifted. This does not mean they are clueless. They simply know WHAT WORKS FOR THEM. What you are attempting to convey is like saying the girl with a photographic memory doesn’t know how to learn. Just because my arms grew faster than average from the start it does not mean I am clueless about training arms. What works for me may not work for someone else. that doesn’t make me wrong. Finding your own path IS THE FUCKING POINT. Trying to find that path without looking to those who have been successful before you is pure ignorance.
Gee, and go figure…look how many people learned to play the piano just fine.
We KNOW now that Arnold S was wrong about pull overs and chest expansion. That doesn’t erase what he was right about and the many who followed his other actions and reached their own goals. Will it work for everyone? Of course not…but then, bodybuilding has never been for EVERYONE in terms of those who are truly successful. I honestly think that alone is what causes so many to micro-analyze every detail despite their lack of progress.
[quote]
Bottom line, if it’s INFORMATION you need, it’s either right or wrong; the characteristics of the deliverer don’t matter. If it’s INSPIRATION you’re looking for, then of course you want to see someone who’s successfully achieved what you want to achieve. Humans are very emotional, so a lot of times, inspiration trumps information in people’s minds. [/quote]
Not one person here has said people should stop learning. The point being made is that your ACTION is more important than your reading skills when it comes to the gym. No one gives a shit how many books you’ve read while they are under 405lbs.
To the OP’s original question, I think people who just say ‘eat big’ are, as some have mentioned, ill-informed scrubs who want to say something that sounds relatively cool, that they know has been said before, so it must be alright.
No one learns anything from reading “SQUATS AND MILK YOU PUSSY!!” or “EAT A TON YOU ANOREXIC LITTLE SUSIE” Whenever I see comments like those, I just shake my head.
(Possibly, the only exception is for those legit 120lb newbies who ask “How do I gain muscle?”–but still, a bit more in-depth response is needed, any person with an IQ in the double digits should know to get larger one must ‘take in’ more)
As far as the other topic that has come up I’d say:
-
It comes down to knowledge. Knowing how to get there is #1 in my book. (Those genetic freaks make up 1% of the population, so don’t worry about them)
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If someone HAS GOT THERE (aka they are big and strong) they did something right. Maybe they’re methods won’t work as well for you, maybe they’ll work BETTER (?!) As a ‘wise man’ once said, “Stand on the shoulders of Giants”
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Why not listen to both sides of the story? If it takes all of 5 minutes to listen to the trainer who is ‘only 170’ consider what he said, decide to use it or not, then move on.
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Personal responsibility. The information is out there. Find it. In person, online, in books, wherever.
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Once you find something to try, TRY IT. I’m positive it won’t take ANYONE a lifetime to find a routine that works for them. So spend less time thinking and more time doing, and you’ll be surprised. (Don’t ignore thinking, just make sure the lifting is what exhausts you.)
In summary (apparently):
-
The better you are at something, the less you know about it and the more everyone else should avoid you.
-
Small people exist.
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People learned to play the piano for centuries without really understanding the biomechanics…and that somehow means everyone in those centuries past was clueless and should have been avoided.
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You should go around the gym asking everyone 100lbs smaller than you for advice…because they just might be Eric Cressey.
-
People over 250lbs don’t know how to lift weights.
Did I leave anything out?
I bet Beethoven was the WORST person to speak with about playing the piano since he was so good and all. Clearly, if you want to learn to play the piano, speak with a kid who just started piano class but read a lot about pianos.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Clearly, if you want to learn to play the piano, speak with a kid who just started piano class but read a lot about pianos.[/quote]
No. No. No. You read a study done by people who have never played a piano, but know how it should be played.
Have you learned nothing? My God. It’s so simple: Making the effort is secondary to reading a fucking book by lab-coated experts.
You know what? I’ve done this before and I’m linking to the thread I started a few months ago. I’m going to continue to link to this every time this dumb argument comes up.
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1774127&pageNo=0
Professor I’d like you to read it especially, it’s sort of a thank you for your(and others) continued effort to help steer some young people(like myself, I want that to be clear always) in the right direction. As much as it might seem like no ones listening, some are and hopefully it continues to be worth it for you.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
In summary (apparently):
-
The better you are at something, the less you know about it and the more everyone else should avoid you.
-
Small people exist.
-
People learned to play the piano for centuries without really understanding the biomechanics…and that somehow means everyone in those centuries past was clueless and should have been avoided.
-
You should go around the gym asking everyone 100lbs smaller than you for advice…because they just might be Eric Cressey.
-
People over 250lbs don’t know how to lift weights.
Did I leave anything out?
I bet Beethoven was the WORST person to speak with about playing the piano since he was so good and all. Clearly, if you want to learn to play the piano, speak with a kid who just started piano class but read a lot about pianos.[/quote]
I’ve also heard being sarcastic and condescending to random people in online forums gets you huge. I think I’ll try that.
[quote]markdp wrote:
I’ve also heard being sarcastic and condescending to random people in online forums gets you huge. I think I’ll try that.[/quote]
See, you just learned something!!
Might not be the best analogy, but Cuss D’Amato couldn’t punch his way out of a wet paper bag but could train champions.
While physique might not warrant outright dismissal, if you weight 160 lbs you damn well better be “training giants” and getting results ala Cuss if you expect to be taken seriously about giving advice for a 170 lb-er to become 230 lbs.
Even if every bit of info is correct and right on the money, the fact is you won’t be taken seriously.
Personally I look for people who have done it and are in similar circumstances as me for advice. For example I would be much more interested in someone that has gone from 175 to 200 lbs in a couple of years than a guy that went from 220 to 250 at an elite level because most likely his advice is more relevant to me.
On the original topic,
I’ve found, myself included that when guys say “I can eat whatever I want and I eat a ton of food” 9 times out of 10 he’s not eating nearly the amount he thinks he is.
And even if he is eating a “ton of food” this is a “results based effort” as Berardi says and if you are not getting the results, increase the calories.
I listen to experience over book learning any day of the week. Of course I’d listen to Eric Cressey, because even though the guy is only a buck seventy, he has hands on experience training others and helping them reach their goals.
I’m sure just about anybody here can answer the same old “What’s the difference between Whey and Metabolic Drive?” or “Is creatine safe” shit that gets asked about 8 times a week, and they’re welcome to it. But If you don’t have first hand knowledge and experience with something, either point them in the direction of somebody who does, or just stay out of the conversation altogether. Chiming in with half-baked theories or mindlessly repeating what passes for common wisdom doesn’t help anyone.
[quote]andersons wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You wrote, “doesn’t mean that I don’t have the knowledge to help someone put on muscle.”. Wouldn’t someone weighing 250+lbs at average height already know themselves how to put on muscle?
No, not necessarily. People can achieve something, especially a physique, without good explicit knowledge of how to achieve it. Your 250-pound guy may have very different genetics and metabolism from you, so what worked for him may not work for you.
Conversely, it is quite possible to learn how to achieve a certain physique through reading research literature and others’ experiences and through coaching others without doing it yourself. Doing it yourself can give you more conviction and passion, and certainly can inspire others, but it’s not necessary for just knowing how.
This reminds me of research that I did several years ago, building on research done by the motor researcher Bernstein many years ago. We found that people who had achieved a high level of motor skill, in this case playing the piano, had in fact INCORRECT knowledge of how they achieved their skill. They were convinced that they were using their arms a certain way, but measurements proved they did not. (Bernstein used high-speed photography; I used a 4D Optotrak camera system with LED emitters.)
The thing was that not only did the pianists have these strong intuitive opinions about their technique, but they also developed teaching methodologies and technical drills around their opinions. These have dominated piano pedagogy for decades.
Based on what I found from the data, I instructed novice pianists differently, and they progressed more rapidly. So my instruction was better than that of pianists far more skilled than I. They had more skill in piano playing, but I had better information about HOW to get where they are.
And it’s not just pianists. Some researchers in Germany have also shown that there are much more effective instructions than the kind traditionally used to teach people golf, skiing, and tennis skills.
Bottom line, if it’s INFORMATION you need, it’s either right or wrong; the characteristics of the deliverer don’t matter. If it’s INSPIRATION you’re looking for, then of course you want to see someone who’s successfully achieved what you want to achieve. Humans are very emotional, so a lot of times, inspiration trumps information in people’s minds. [/quote]
Yes, maybe you taught them quicker on the basics of being a pianist but what happens when they need to advance? You will be incapible of helping them beyond a certain point and a more skilled pianist will need to be present. This still isn’t the greatest example you give because although weight lifting does have elements of skill, it’s different from that of something like being a excellent pianist.
I just cant justify having someone unexperienced telling another unexperienced lifter that they need to eat more as their constructive criticism.